NationStates Jolt Archive

If you have an OOC comment about the thread, post it here please. If there is IC comments, please post it in the other thread.

Meteor Shower over Aperin --- Theta Omega Mission (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98448&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

Once again: the only nations to secretly know about this are DA, Knootoss, and Ruhr. Cirdanistan has just 'found' out somehow :lol:

Well, we have now seen the CACE step to ignoring an attack bubbling them against the rest of the world:

1) How can you do this? We know its you because your ship had to be detected.

2) Impossible, you would have to go the long way around and it is uninhabitale and my uber defence system would have picked you up still!

3) Forced RP. Thread is ignored. (View the CACE website here (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE/index.php?showtopic=622)




Now come on, what nation is going to truthfully accept an attack on them. And after all, this is all that is. A reasonably small attack. Why would you ignore this since it doesn't fit into your OOC schedule? FFRP is great because you can wait over time, you aren't required to post IMMEDIATELY AFTER!!1 Forcing RP on you is not a reasonable exuse if thou art to use it.

Allright... that's it.

You ignore anything that works against you, but don't ignore anything you feel like ranting about at the moment. It was a friggin SMALL attack with 12 cruise missiles. With constantly changing excuses you use the "I must win everything I do system"

I had your thread quoted. It amazes me really. "Forced Roleplay", to you is the concept that someone else influences you in a manner you don't like
Well, THAT is Freaking Roleplay, you take anothers plans and add them to your nation. you adapt to situations outside your control.

Forced Roleplay would be if you -dictated- the results... If you take out all possibilities of chance...then what the hell is the point of -doing- anything? What it appears Seoocc wants is a Story, which is fine, write a story, this is however not a story this is roleplay. Where multiple people add to the mix, change the mix and from it, something not originally seen emerges... and is better than what was originally designed. In the end it's a system where the DM can see his plot fly out the window, and yet the game is better for it.

I won't enter a bitching session over this.

Everyone who ignores this attack is COUNTERIGNORED by me untill further notice. Maybe the others can convince me to NOT ignore you for some reason. Bribes maybe. But I doubt it.


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Balmora Military Airbase
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http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/IGNOREarrayDX.JPG

Your nations do not exist.

*post compiled with quotes from fellow people on IRC: notable thanks go out to Tor, Revenia, Ravenspire

hahahaha - sweet, finally, Knootoss is going to leave us alone. if only i'd thought of this earlier -

- ask nations to make sure we want to take part in a RP with them before they start something -

- and this would have all be so much easier.

i think you've overlooked how badly we all want you to not dick around with us any more.

at any rate, nobody's ignored your attack on Cirdanistan yet. for another, didn't you post here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88155&start=240) that you'd pulled all non-rescue forces out of Aperin. then a week later this sub materializes on the other side of the continent. excuse us if you didn't bother to make sure we didn't have ships patrolling there.

really.

so quite frankly if you guys never RP with me again it'll be too soon, i've been trying to get K to realize we didn't want to take part in any of his shenanigans for a month, and if on top of that i don't have to worry about your crazy attempts to start a war with us, good. now i can go back to having fun, arguing with the 3WSC about autarchy, setting up the TPB, attacking Svea Riga, fighting anarchists in the ACEPB, you know, fun stuff. not having you two putzes try to out some vendetta you have against us for ... doing stuff.

to quote GMC here (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE/index.php?showtopic=555):

Actually, what I've always said is that you shouldn't do IC actions for OOC reasons, in the vein of 'I don't like what you posted in General so I'm going to nuke your capital!' Ignoring is an OOC action , so no real problem. [b]There's no rule compelling you to RP with someone if you don't want to.

emhasis added. if we don't want to RP with you that's OUR choice, not yours. you can bitch and moan all you want, but nothing. and regarding all your stupid accusations K, they're stupid. right now i'm still stuck in a war of attrition with FOE in the middle of the ACEPB and it's bugging the fuck out of me, but i'm not complaining because it's fun and we both agreed to it from the beginning. which is really what makes all the differance.

edit: stupid tag errors, thought of something else funny that i had to say.

:roll:

Point 1: honestly, every time I seem to log in there's another of Knootoss's intrigues in Aperin to take care of. I just can't be bothered with it all the time, and I don't always have the time to get heavily involved.

Point 2: if you want to initiate an RP that compels someone to respond it's only polite to TG them first. Not everyone is sitting waiting to respond to your next dastardly deed.

Point 3: obviously Cirdanistan should respond before anyone else does.

Point 4: if you'd paid attention to point 2 and set it up properly you'd maybe notice that Cirdanistan hasn't logged in for five days.

Point 5: point 4 just makes you look silly for crying about being ignored.

And really, I've become tired of what is now essentially an OOC grudge by a bunch of people that no matter how much we say "please let it drop for a while because I'm sick of all the flaming and bitching that accompanies these threads" just refuse to do so.

I'm sorry, Knootoss, you can 'allright, that's it' to your heart's content, but you're not the one who's been fed up for weeks now. We don't want war. We never wanted war. We uncovered a plot to invade us, stopped the invasion without a shot fired, and we're still having that shoved down our throats as warmongering. We have had several of our threads put on hold because of dealing with threats of war/plots of war/ talks to avert conflict dropped halfway through without any rationale/ Ruhr attacking us/ you name it, and we have to say now, because all IC options have been magikced away from us: we do not want to play this game with you. We never wanted to play it. We, as roleplayers, ask that you, as roleplayers, allow us the common decency of letting us play the game as we want to play it. We've never invaded you. We don't establish military bases on your borders. We don't infiltrate your forum. We leave you alone. Why, why, can you not respect our wish not to play this big conspiracy game? Why can you not respect our right as players not to pander to this nonsense?

We do NOT ignore anything that works against us. We have reasonable objections to weird, poorly defined, bady roleplayed stuff manifesting around something we have-- a well-defined geographical space, something I notice is absent and therefore amenorable to magic in other cases-- that is transparently designed to maifest trouble for us, trouble we are afforded no opportunity to address, trouble we have no wish, as players, to deal with, because we're fed up. The game is NOT better for allowing you to run roughshod over us. It may be better for you, but Celdonia and I are seriously considering leaving, if you want to know how bad it is for us. All we want is for you to ask us first if a certain kind of RP is something we want to do at the moment, or something we think is reasonable. All we're asking is a little consultation, and you know us, we are reasonable, we will more than likely agree to reasonable conflict threads-- we just object to being forced into them. Celdonia has a five month old kid and a full time job. SeOCC has extensive teaching obligations. I'm just too old for this. There's limited time, there's limited levels of willingness to deal with it, and the limits have been reached.


What it appears Seoocc wants is a Story, which is fine, write a story, this is however not a story this is roleplay.

If you have done any roleplaying at all, I can only gather that you have played Amber exclusively. The entire point of roleplaying is the creation of a story: mutual creation, not point-scoring, not winning. We are not out to 'score points'. We are not out to 'win'. Those concepts do not exist for us in this context.

Cirdanistan has not posted yet, nor has he been logged on, so I consider the Meteor Shower thread up in the air. If you consider this post reason to ignore me, I more than welcome you to do so. I'm tired of this.

at any rate, nobody's ignored your attack on Cirdanistan yet. for another, didn't you post here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88155&start=240) that you'd pulled all non-rescue forces out of Aperin. then a week later this sub materializes on the other side of the continent. excuse us if you didn't bother to make sure we didn't have ships patrolling there.

No, I pulled out everything aside from my flagship taskforce.

IC with no true time to post:

Most Ruhrian Forces will be pulling out of the Aperin region due to growing conflict at home over domestic support for action.

The only vessels remaining will be the RNS Landschwert Supercarrier Battlegroup with all Arctic Fleet rescue vessels. A salvage operation will be taking place for Tonkin.

The medical division in Skargarden is packing up and preparing an air-extraction from the 71st Transport Air Wing.

Once again, the only force remaining in Aperin areas will be the rescue forces.

-That is all-

The Flagship Taskforce is 30 ships large, twenty surface vessels (8 of which are supply and auxillary including the Rescue ship and hospital ships). Along with these are 10 submarines: 1 SSBN, 2 SSGNs and 7 SSNs.

One SSGN was assigned to monitor your coast, Seocc if you remember one of my very first coasts. This one was accompanied by two SSNs from my other fleet. This is the same SSGN that moved around Outer Aperin and attacked Cirdanistan. It never moved off your coast through thick and thin, it has always been there and as you have said...you should have picked it up with your 1000km radius. However you would note that it does 'leave'. This leave was only a simulated leave to exit the 1000Km radius of the coasts and turns, as noted on the map. It is afterwords when the XM-2 gave the orders to commence the Theta-Omega missions.

That is how the sub got there, it has always been there from the start. SSGNs serve the same purpose as SSBNs, they stay down for months at a time with enormous ranges.

Quick question - How do you develop and maintain a 1000km radar/sonar system circling your entire continent? Do you have any idea how expansive that would be?

I was called into help. If nobody wants my help, so be it. But I feel I must attempt.

New Siosia: I said the exact same thing. I have so far to get a satisfactory response.

Don't you thing this is a teensy bit insane, considering Cirdanistan hasn't even replied? What if he decided to allow the attack? Or what if he quit NationStates? Don't you thing you are a little bit fast off the starting block?

Point: Not everyone in Aperin maintains Rubicon stations. In any case a single nation may be unlikely to ring a continent, but individual nations putting a handful of stations on their coastline is hardly unlikely.

Point: A single Rubicon installation has a range of 1000 kilometers.

So what not just say the submarines are equipped with <insert random name here> that disrupts the Rubicon effects.

If you can make up obscenely powerful units of technology, so should everyone else?

Plus, Ruhr, you are going to have an awful hard time getting out of there alive.

Anhierarch: That just seems excessive, and besides, drawing from the map, the Ruhrian ship was more than 1000 km out. As soon as the missiles get past apogee, they are likely to be detected. Fast. Which is why the ship is going to have a hard time escaping.

Rubicon's just a code name, thank you. And if Rubicon's creator wishes to inform you strictly OOCly about how Rubicon works, that is his perogative.

Imnsvale: Well, just waiting on Cirdanistan's response, here. If he goes with it I'll go with it, but I'd still like to try and appeal to NS in general about the basics of OOC RP courtesy.

Who is Rubicon's creator? I would love to see an explanation.

SeOCC, from my understanding.

SeOCC. Not online at the moment, I think.

Although, not to be blunt, but how are you involved? That wasn't to sound mean, but I can't see where you fall in.

Edit: New Siosia

I'd like to see the explanation for this system that covers over 3 million square kilometers per unit. In the real world, that would allow Germany to see all of the neighboring countries, including the UK and the western border of Russia down to the percision of locating a submarine (which would also be several kilometers deep) and the capability to literally sort out millions of pieces of data. An explanation would make my day!

This was called to my attention. We can leave it at that.

Edit - Was logged in as a satellite country earlier. This is the same person.

i will NOT reveal how the Rubicon works to people i do not trust. why? because in NS there are too many people who will abuse knowledge and, a week from now, come out with their own tech based on the hard work i did. i have a handful of people i trust, and i've contacted them to see if they'd be willing to offer confirmation that the tech is not pulled out of my butt and is legit.

regarding sorting out data, i'd hope you were aware of SeOCC's EDW program before you started throwing around accusations.

also: do you guys recognize Menelmacar? if so, do you recognize her gravships? if so, why are you giving me static over 1000km sensors? SHE HAS FLYING BATTLESHIPS. if that's not pulled from somebody's but nothing is.

Ruhr, if that sub was with that group it was DEFINATELY detected on account of we were tracking that battlegroup (or i was, with GK's, doing those surveillance flights i mentioned WAAAAY back at the start of the wargames). you can't think a sub that detaches itself won't cause suspicion.

but that's neither here nor there, the point is Cirdanistan needs to reply, and i see no reason for him not to accept the attack. hopefully Ruhr will also accept that we know it's his sub and that we're going to sink it, but we'll see about that.

Rubicon:

We have decided, after the incident with Menelmacar's airforce, to fully develop a comprehensive defense system from Camp Firewood. The Rubicon (blatant reference) System will consist of a combination of MAD stations installed in regional allies and mobile sensor vehicles, both on the ground and in the ocean. We have MAD systems installed in SC's and GK's but constant air patrols are too expensive to maintain, and so will not be reflected in the Rubicon coverage schemes.

We have drawn up a proposed coverage of the system which can be viwed here; the translucent red circles indicate coverage by the MAD sensor stations; the three smaller circles numbered 1,2 and 3 represent three MAD equipped coast guard ships we have delpoyed outside of Mizzoolo at this time. Since M1ka Anka, the nation that we bought the MAD system from, has ceased to exist we consider our agreement with them void. We now offer MAD rigs to all CACE nations who desire them, and will begin installing them aboard Mizoollo's naval resources in the near future to provide extensive mobile rigs on our coast.

Upon completion and successful testing of the Rubicon system we will be ready to install the system in our CACE allies.

ooc: who's gone nuts and anal? me! i drew this up just i case they try something; the MAD system cannot be stealthed against since it follows metal and even those stupid grav ships are made of metal. combine with our active jamming of their sensors and the fact that the MAD does not send out pulses, and so there is no way to know you're being followed by an MAD sensor and say hello to being hit by a dozen AA missiles all at once. nobody is bombing my nation or my allies.

And a few more details (Commets included... and no, it´s not _my_ comments, my personal knowledge about this stuff is somewhat limited):

I think I should declare it now; the Rubicon is stupid and wouldn't work.

We have decided, after the incident with Menelmacar's airforce, to fully develop a comprehensive defense system from Camp Firewood. The Rubicon (blatant reference) System will consist of a combination of MAD stations installed in regional allies and mobile sensor vehicles, both on the ground and in the ocean. We have MAD systems installed in SC's and GK's but constant air patrols are too expensive to maintain, and so will not be reflected in the Rubicon coverage schemes.

We have drawn up a proposed coverage of the system which can be viwed here; the translucent red circles indicate coverage by the MAD sensor stations; the three smaller circles numbered 1,2 and 3 represent three MAD equipped coast guard ships we have delpoyed outside of Mizzoolo at this time. Since M1ka Anka, the nation that we bought the MAD system from, has ceased to exist we consider our agreement with them void. We now offer MAD rigs to all CACE nations who desire them, and will begin installing them aboard Mizoollo's naval resources in the near future to provide extensive mobile rigs on our coast.

Riiiight...He's reverse-engineered an extremely complex system, to the point where it's performance is comparable to the original, and can now mass-produce it. Bearing in mind he's heavy-socialist, that would mean adjusting all his five-year plans and quotas...It'd be an adminstrative nightmare.

Upon completion and successful testing of the Rubicon system we will be ready to install the system in our CACE allies.

SeOCC, if we recall, is made up entirely of arcologies placed so close together he can completely discount the prospect of his enemy using ground forces. Therefore, wouldn't it have problems with getting a large, open area like a testing range? In addition, SeOCC's cunningly forgotten that building missile factories takes time and is just slightly expensive. And obvious on satellite surviellence photos.

ooc: who's gone nuts and anal? me! i drew this up just i case they try something; the MAD system cannot be stealthed against since it follows metal and even those stupid grav ships are made of metal. combine with our active jamming of their sensors and the fact that the MAD does not send out pulses, and so there is no way to know you're being followed by an MAD sensor and say hello to being hit by a dozen AA missiles all at once. nobody is bombing my nation or my allies.

Modern stealth fighters are mostly organic and composite; they're not mainly metal by any stretch of the imagination. Also, this would mean conventional chaff would totally knacker the MAD system.

The Rubicon System will consist of

1. Magnetic Anomoly Detection Sites : Using industrial quantum processors, which differ from our military processors in that they are made to handle huge bitrates rather than make rapid multiple attempts on an equation, we can accurately filter out noise and garbage over even huge sweep areas, giving our largest units ranges of 1000km when operating at their peak.

Sounds like a completely arbitary figure to me.

These units are restricted to stationary installations due to power requirements and the high degree of stability required to maintain fidelity at the very high speed of spin the MAD rings require for the 1000km sweep. Large nuclear powered naval vessels, and yes we are non nuclear so these will not be appearing on any SeOCC vessels, can mount a MAD unit with a sweep of about 700km, but the sweep will only be accurate when the ship is stationary and the ocean is calm. Smaller vessels, and 700km units on the move, are confined to sweeps of 500km in radius. This is still comprable to long range RADAR systems so is acceptable though not ideal.

So, we have SeOCC systems (operated by his techs, presumably) on non-SeOCC vessels. Logistical nightmare.

In addition to standard RADAR towers, maintained for redundancy as well as misdirection (the enemy will attack RADAR sites and be quite stunned when our missiles are still tracking their aircraft), the MAD sites will provide accurate positional data on every aircraft and naval vessel in the network's range. In this way the Rubicon System will act in a manner similar to NORAD; all missile sites, AA and AS, will be linked into the Rubicon System. All stationary sites will be linked by buried hardlines as well as tightbeam laser arrays to maintain security and constant data flow; mobile sites will have to rely on laser arrays as well as radio, in the event that whatever satellites we're using at the moment go down and cannot be quickly replaced.

The system sounds good, s'true. But, as said, it's

a). A first-gen system (for comparison, first-gen heat-seeking missiles would regularly lock on to the sun, greenhouses, reflected heat from the sea, the aircraft that fired them and their own exhaust)

b ). Virtually useless against stealth aircraft and couldn't do a damn thing about a squadron of Gotha bombers built with ceramic components instead of metal ones...

2. Forward Jamming Arrays : Most of our advanced R&D in recent years has gone towards perfecting the transmission of false data in whatever form it may take. Communication to moving targets still requires, if most if not all cases, radio waves, and these waves can be intercepted, decrypted, and knowledge of the proper encryption allows us to send false transmissions. This is most useful in instance where vehicles are dependant on remote sources for sensor data; this can effectively blind, or better, misinform enemy units as to the position of our troops. FJA's also include RADAR emitters, which measure the frequency of the incoming RADAR wave, calculate the echo a unit will give off and can then send the inverse frequency, cancelling out the echo, making the unit invisible. This can also be used to send false positional information, making units appear where they are not.

He's just earned a reverse-Nobel prize, people.

Now, on the surface this sounds like a good idea; it's similar to white noise generators used on submarines to conceal their engine noise using an inverse sound wave, the idea being that if you receive /\ and \/ at the same time, you'll see --. The crucial difference is that the submarine is the source of both waves, wheras SeOCC's system isn't.

What would have to happen is that the unit is hit by a radar wave; it measures the strength and bearing and calculates what the return would be, then transmits an inverse wave back at the source.

Trouble is, this wouldn't work, since in the time it was calculating the pulse that hit it would be returning to it's source, the unit and / or the source would be moving (meaning the bearing it worked out would be wrong), and the radar on the unit might not be able to mimic the source's transmission.

<Firstly, this is because it might not be the type of radar the unit has or be too strong; I can't see a Green Knight hauling a battleship-grade OTH radar and attendant power supply around with it; so the signal return would be too weak to mask the real one and you'd end up with two blips on the same bearing, one apparently much further away than the other.
Secondly, this system operates under the assumption that SeOCC's radar systems are capable of impersonating ours, which is stupid; trying to impersonate a GMC naval system with his cave-radar would be like trying to convince people you're Brian May with a piece of string tied to a broom.>

Now, let's consider (Ta-da!) numbers. Even if we ignore the other flaws in the system, this would only work with one radar wave. If two hit you at once, you have to send out two different returns in different directions at the same time. I can't think of any ship that only has one radar, or any fleet that only has one ship. So his system is trying to fool dozens of invididual radars while simultaneously avoiding any ships detecting jamming signals intended for other vessels. And hoping someone doesn't fire a HARM at something emitting as much radar as an entire fleet of ships.

FJA in use in SeOCC are mounted on SC's and GK's; both vehicles mount both radar and laser emitters to mimic both forms of communication and carry three independant RADAR emitters to fake triangulation. We intend, the Rubicon System progresses, to either build ourselves or have an ally involved with this sytem build naval vessels fitted with FJA's to attempt to mask those ships as well as provide immediate jamming as our airborne assets launch. FJA's are also fitted in or near all MAD sites and are always connected by hardline; no matter what FJA's will be able to receive the targetting data they need to accurately target their arrays. Fixed installations will mount many more arrays than capable of being fitted on a vehicle in order to prepare for possible point overrun attacks.

So he can now restructure his entire power grid without anyone becoming suspicious of his 'secret' system.

In the Rubicon System the FJA's have the critical role of hiding any missiles launched; tests of the GK showed over 80% effectiveness in masking missiles launched from the GK to a target 5-10km away; targets will receive no lock on warning and will not see the missile on their RADAR arrays, taking them utterly by surprise. FJA's are powered by, what else, Q Consoles, usually running 4-6 parallel units to maximize speed and the number of operations capable of running simoutaneously.

Rubbish, you'd never beat the control delay or multi-radar problems. And he can't factor out the delay and account for it because the radar wave his plane emitted would have to catch up with the other regardless, and you can't predict when radar's going to strike the aircraft.

3. Missile Sites : Anti-Aircraft and Anti-Ship, our current and planned assets are designed purely to prevent enemies reaching SeOCC; given our structure anti-tank missiles are pointless, there is nowhere for tanks to land.

What? SeOCC is wall-to-wall arcologies? Well, now we know why he's so afraid of bombers; if one arco collapsed, they'd all go over like dominoes.

Sites are placed within two or three km of MAD sites; though they are almost all buried and undectable (virtually) until launch it is best not to risk retalliation needlessly damaging other assets. Currently we are dependant on other nations for our missiles though that will change if our plans for the CEC succeed.

Buried SAM and ASM sites would cost him dearly, BTW, since burying something makes it much harder to service and maintain.

4. Aircraft : Our last line of defense, the Green Knight was designed as a forward interdict craft. Capable of Mach 1.2 at max cruising and equipped with four air to air missiles and our best FJA systems its primary purpose is to seek out and pick off any approaching bombers that elude the AA sites. The SC can be equipped with two anti-ship missiles and serves to eliminate any ships that slip through the AS sites.

It's a piece of shit, in other words. And if he thinks he can beat FG-22s with a full payload of heat seekers, he ain't fooling anyone but himself.

Executive summary: the Rubicon is stupid.

i want to say this before i reply to this: Der Angst, the king of uber tech nonsense that has no modern tech basing, is going to lecture me, who basis all my tech on real life things that actually exist, on stuff that won't work.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

really.

Riiiight...He's reverse-engineered an extremely complex system, to the point where it's performance is comparable to the original, and can now mass-produce it. Bearing in mind he's heavy-socialist, that would mean adjusting all his five-year plans and quotas...It'd be an adminstrative nightmare.

so re: the reverse engineering, you dolt, i bought the plans from them. the TOLD me how to make them; how stupid would i be to buy tech and not the plans? and how long ago did i start the Rubicon, that you think i'd have a hard time working it into my plans? putz.

] SeOCC, if we recall, is made up entirely of arcologies placed so close together he can completely discount the prospect of his enemy using ground forces. Therefore, wouldn't it have problems with getting a large, open area like a testing range? In addition, SeOCC's cunningly forgotten that building missile factories takes time and is just slightly expensive. And obvious on satellite surviellence photos.

well, no, because you might notice there's a big open SEA next to my nation. and these factories didn't spring up over night, i waited quite a while from the announcement of the Rubicon until its completion.

Modern stealth fighters are mostly organic and composite; they're not mainly metal by any stretch of the imagination. Also, this would mean conventional chaff would totally knacker the MAD system.

well whatever, i didn't say chaff wouldn't jam it. in fact, solar flares would fuck with it too, as would giant electro magnets, so if you've got one of them, bring it along!

Sounds like a completely arbitary figure to me.

sort of, no more arbitrary than grav ships and psychics. i talked to M1ka Anka about it and did some research, and decided 1000km sounded like a good target for max range. MAX range, not most effective range. but whatever, really, are the allies of Menelmacar, Diablo_NL (who has huge meteor shooting rail guns) the best people to lecture about arbitrary? i took a tiny liberty, sue me.

So, we have SeOCC systems (operated by his techs, presumably) on non-SeOCC vessels. Logistical nightmare.

why?

a). A first-gen system (for comparison, first-gen heat-seeking missiles would regularly lock on to the sun, greenhouses, reflected heat from the sea, the aircraft that fired them and their own exhaust)

well, years later, let's call it a many generations later system.

b ). Virtually useless against stealth aircraft and couldn't do a damn thing about a squadron of Gotha bombers built with ceramic components instead of metal ones...

yeah, and a set of old school flat tops, as GMC pointed out many months ago, would be immune to EDW attack. as for being useless against stealth, whatever. i'm not weapons expert, i abhor war and have no interest in becoming an adept of its tools, but from my limited reading it seems a stealth fighter has quite a few metal components. according to this (http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117a.htm) the paint on an F117 is metal, or contains metal.

Trouble is, this wouldn't work, since in the time it was calculating the pulse that hit it would be returning to it's source, the unit and / or the source would be moving (meaning the bearing it worked out would be wrong), and the radar on the unit might not be able to mimic the source's transmission.

well i'm assuming this is out of date, since i've had many long TG's with GMC about this very problem, and many of the others below this that i've clipped. one might notice i no longer use FJA's for duping, only jamming, and also, one might notice that your information on the Rubicon is VERY old. we've made a few advances, mostly thanks to GMC's nitpicking. phased FJA anyone?

but whatever, i'm still ididgnant that allies of Menelmacar are giving me shit about my technology. yes, i take liberties, i'm theorizing, that's what the +1 is all about.

So he can now restructure his entire power grid without anyone becoming suspicious of his 'secret' system.

the Rubicon is not secret.

What? SeOCC is wall-to-wall arcologies? Well, now we know why he's so afraid of bombers; if one arco collapsed, they'd all go over like dominoes.

what's embarassing about this is that GMC knew this ages ago, and yet you guys didn't get why the nuke or your wargames were such an issue for me. dur.

Executive summary: the Rubicon is stupid.

see here i thought i had made a good attempt to build a new kind of sensor grid, and wow, what a mistake. i see that it is, in fact, stupid. but whatever, i really give a shit about your oh so technical opinions.

i'd like to see GMC's comments on M's airforce, hmm? where are those? you give me all this shit for theorizing about modern tech and you leave her alone?

more to the point, as always, when someone stumbles in theorizing about new military systems a million people jump all over them. but if someone stumbles with their economic theory, saying, for instance, that they have a fully mechanized economy, and i point out the faults, everybody says i'm a douche. do you see the problem here? either it's FFRP and people can do what they want or we need to inject reality in it. it's not the first when you're on the line and the second when i'm on the line.

but, again, whatever. you want to nitpick, fine, whatever. i tried, and i guess i fucked it all up. hurrah. just ignore me for unrealistic tech, never speak to me again and we'll call it even.

*points to dropship crash in Svea Riga, just to make sure it is noticed*

want to say this before i reply to this: Der Angst, the king of uber tech nonsense that has no modern tech basing, is going to lecture me, who basis all my tech on real life things that actually exist, on stuff that won't work.


Ya see, I do not complain when people use übertech or magic on me. I deal with it.

YOU do complain.

If you can`t live by your own standards, SHUTUP.

[One could once again note that your precious Q consoles defy the laws of quantum physics (I really need to look up that article... next weekend, perhaps), but i will abstain...]

[PS: Just because you don´t read the same articles i read doesn`t mean you`re right and i`m wrong. Tech implants in the human body (including brain) and other stuff are existing/ in development. (Just remembered you though 'Cyborg' tech is outside the modern + 1 tech range)]

And, to make this clear:

You don`t like the szenario i play, DON`T INTERACT WITH ME.

However, you choosed to interact, so, live with the results.

Actually, the whole point is, SeOCC-- and nobody involved on 'our side'-- chose to interact. This was dropped on us out of the blue. We'd love it if we could choose to interact, we really would love it. It would make all our lives so much easier.

Meep meep!

Seocc, you can't salvage the vessels, they are destroyed, obliterated, desintegrated, 'kaput'.

However, you choosed to interact, so, live with the results.

an interesting catch 22: when we don't interact, you say that we ignore anything that threatenes us, yet when we do interact you force us to live by your rules, rather than finding a medium. cute.

as for those vessels, dno't even tell me they vaporized or whatever, and i'm so going to salvage the parts.

Tech implants in the human body (including brain) and other stuff are existing/ in development. Yup, they have recently rigged a chimp up to move around a computer mouse pointer directly through a wire attached to the poor things brain. It has been established that the brain can send commands to computer conponents through a wire, but I havn't seen anything that would suggest that we have found a way for the computer conponents to send data back to the brain.Ya see, I do not complain when people use übertech or magic on me. I deal with it. That is YOUR choice, Sparky. And kid: YOU were doing quite a bit of complaining just now. And the fact that you would put a somewhat advanced sensor rig into the same pile as gravship00rz and fucking magic says alot.

OK you stubborn socialist nation you, listen up!


TVC MILITARY HOVERDYNE DOCTRINE

(extract from Field Commander manual V2.1)

It is a fact that the hoverdynes of the Vortex Corporation are somewhat rare on the international battlefields. As one of the few nations posessing the technology to create these particular variants of hoverdynes, the protection of the technologies and workings of these vehicles is a priority for any field commander.

Having stated this, the Vortex Corporation therefore insists that every single field commander, officer or any individual that is in command of one or multiple hoverdynes considers the preservation of their technology a number one priority. In extreme situations, the Vortex Corporation therefore approves of the intentional destruction of military hoverdynes. Situations in which such a course of action is recommended are:

1. Imminent capture of a hoverdyne, whether the aforementioned hoverdyne is located on a battlefield or in storage / maintenance.

2. Situations in which field commanders judge the possibility of hoverdynes falling into enemy hands to be significant. This includes failed withdrawals after combat situations, logistical errors, crashes of dropships, capture of convoys and other related situations (please refer to addendum 12-A for a complete list).

3. Muteny and theft.

4. Similar procedures are applicable to hoverdyne technology. Whenever technology is removed from a hoverdyne or a Corporate facility, the Vortex Corporation advises Corporate units to destroy the removed items, rather than let them fall into enemy hands.

If any of the aforementioned situations is to take place, self-destruction of the endangered hoverdynes is to follow. This is to be carried out by disengaging the Schroedinger field around the Zephrim engine and the Amiga generators attached to that engine. This will create an energy discharge, not only resulting in enormous heat and release of energy, but also in sub-particle emissions of electrons. The result of the latter is a powerful ionization field and will wreak havoc on electronic equipment inside the hoverdyne. The dissipation of this ionization field will lead to recombination-independent photogeneration, which emits enough energetic photons to literally consume everything in its radius.

Please note that such an effect cannot be reached from outside the hoverdynes. The Polysteel 20 shock plates, as well as the normal armour and layout of the vehicle prevent such a reaction from occuring. The action of self-destruction must be initiated by manual commands from inside the hoverdyne. The field commander is only allowed to reveal the commands to do so to his subordinates in times of absolute need.

Also note that two different policies are applicable to this particular topic. When fighting on Sisgardian grounds, the policies described above should be applied in their original form. When hoverdynes are transported outside Sisgardia, slight alterations will take place, causing the effect of self-destruction to be somewhat larger. The amount of scrapnel and armour remains normally resulting from self-destruction will decrease even further due to such an alteration. For further reading on the procedures and techniques associated with these alterations, please ask your divisionay commander for permission (Form 127-F)

-End-

OOC: So, the hoverdyne is detonated from the inside. The core overloads, everything burns, a plasma wave eliminates the vehicle, plus the Schroedinger reaction consumes everything. This is taken directly from the Ground Control game, on which my nation has been based since the very beginning. Similar procedures have been used from that same beginning on. I will not retcon all those actions because you want to play scavenger. At most, you will find some pieces of armor the size of a piece of Lego. All technology, and especially the antimagnetic Zephrim drives, is completely annihilated.

Thank you GMC for that information.

Rubicon is so ridiculous and I can't believe people actually acknowledge it.

So will you be acknowledging gravships, then? :roll:

Well I didn't say that I wouldn't, I'm just shocked that others do.

Besides we have a pair of 12 year-old girls supplied by the government with only Legos and pudding that are coming close to discovering a way to manipulate the radar waves at a high frequency (and bypassing the basic radio waves in which they would be noticed) to induce the effect upon the Rubicon installments that there isn't any metal substance within the vicinity, rendering it blind to the area.

Siosia, who the hell are you anyway, to be in this thread?

i think C really summed up my thoughts on this best:

It seems tech has to be utterly realistic or utterly unrealistyic, and a little poetic license and guess work in between is not permitted.

and again and again i've tried to get people onboard with the live-and-let-live modular tech policy and nobody wants to use it. why? fucked if i know.

so, to use an old standard, blow me.

You see, this is becoming typical of these RP sessions.

As far as I am aware SeOCC no longer claims that the Rubicon system masks radar and allows defensive missiles and the likes to operate undetected. He does claim that it jams radar, and Metallic Anomaly Detection (MAD) is already used by the military (normally to detect submarines, ironically), though not in the way described by SeOCC.

All he's describing, in effect, is an advanced coastal protection system with a maximum range of 1000km. The general tech is based on current technology and, in the tradition of speculative fiction, extrapolated a little to take into account the timeframe of modern + 1.

It isn't infallable (that's been acknowledged) but in a game where everyone makes stuff up why so much abuse for someone who invents something that gives him a defensive edge?

It's not claiming to change the laws of gravity, or use FTL travel, or psychic powers, or magic, or any of the other stuff that people make up.

You see, this is becoming typical of these RP sessions.

As far as I am aware SeOCC no longer claims that the Rubicon system masks radar and allows defensive missiles and the likes to operate undetected. He does claim that it jams radar, and Metallic Anomaly Detection (MAD) is already used by the military (normally to detect submarines, ironically), though not in the way described by SeOCC.

All he's describing, in effect, is an advanced coastal protection system with a maximum range of 1000km. The general tech is based on current technology and, in the tradition of speculative fiction, extrapolated a little to take into account the timeframe of modern + 1.

It isn't infallable (that's been acknowledged) but in a game where everyone makes stuff up why so much abuse for someone who invents something that gives him a defensive edge?

It's not claiming to change the laws of gravity, or use FTL travel, or psychic powers, or magic, or any of the other stuff that people make up.

My point becomes invalid because I don't have a "name."

Ruhr, if that sub was with that group it was DEFINATELY detected on account of we were tracking that battle group (or i was, with GK's, doing those surveillance flights i mentioned WAAAAY back at the start of the wargames). you can't think a sub that detaches itself won't cause suspicion.

but that's neither here nor there, the point is Cirdanistan needs to reply, and i see no reason for him not to accept the attack. hopefully Ruhr will also accept that we know it's his sub and that we're going to sink it, but we'll see about that.

Seocc, a few things. The submarine did operate off your coast and was within the 1000km limit. Obviously your godmoded Metallic Anomaly Detection sensors would have picked it up when it was outside of the archipelago and island chains during the start of the wargames. It stayed there for quite some time, and eventually left the coast and went back to the Landschwert Task Force. From there, the sub operated solely but within the limits of the taskforce of thirty some capital ships. That is the information granted in the RP.

Now, Bringing into consideration the sheer size of the fleet, you are going to have to explain to me the following. I had 130 capital ships (Including 20 submarines with five more who came in from the Indian Ocean Attack Fleet). These vessels were broken up into 7 permanent task forces, which they operate in, and these 7 task forces were scheduled to patrol the entire western coast of Aperin, which, as you and your Aperinians acknowledged, was quite an extensive program. Another extensive program would obviously be your Green Knights reconnaissance program, which monitored and patrolled, somehow, all 7 taskforces and all twenty-five submarines which were operating thousands of miles out, and operating quietly and deeply. MAD can very well detect metals, but to search an area of well over a few million square kilometers looking for twenty-five submarines and then maintaining their contacts as you have done will require extensive manpower and resources.

You would need to effectively maintain and have twenty-four hour surveillance of my entire seven taskforces monitoring every ships movement. That i quite a costly operation, and keep in mind that is not dealing with the rest of the allied forces you are 'monitoring'. I suppose you have a way to explain this.

Now, when I left, I left. You did nothing to acknowledge my leave other than all of my forces left. Not only that but you believed that everything but the rescue forces left. Why would you track it if you thought it was gone? How is that possible? I don't see your reasoning here. As you mentioned before in the thread, you asked where this sub came from. If you were monitoring it, then you should have told me rather than expected an explanation from me.

But you weren't, you wanted to know where the sub came from. You expected it to go south with the rescue force as evident in former posts where you DID follow my task force which went along the south bend, leaving the SSGN to continue on its north-easterly path home only to be left in the deep blue alone, unbothered by your Green Knights.

From there, when the sub got to a safe approach point, it rounded the northern point maintaining the 1000 mile distance until it came perpendicular to Cirdanistan's coast and firing on his coasts, undetected.

Now, as far as your statement on how my sub will be sunk. Interesting, I avoided the Godmoded 'Rubicon' defence platform radiuses. I outmaneuvered your suspicion by heading home, which you did acknowledge. And I fired. But now, once again...you have millions of miles of water to find one small, rubber plated submarine running deep, quietly and swiftly back to Ruhr.

I don’t see how you know it is me, I do not see how you plan on catching me (and trust me, I went over it), and overall I do not even see how your Green Knights could possibly handle the situation.

Dork Terror never paid me to eradicate Cirdanistan. It was a joke on mIRC a while back leading up to some IC rumor that got in your hands. There was never any ICBM attack planned on Cirdanistan until now, especially considering Ruhr does not possess a single ICBM. All Ballistic missiles in Ruhrian hands are conventional, the one system we do have that is considered a weapon of mass destruction is the Orbital Artillery Platform, yes…an ortillery platform. One of which you cannot ignore now that there are Orbital Weapons Platform issues. I hope you have the time to erase your memory banks of any rumours pertaining to a planned Ruhrian glassification of your little puppet state, Cirdanistan.

I thank you for your time you have devoted to this thread, and your devotion to maintaining a steady posting stream. All I can do is hope that Cirdanistan pops in soon and has a pleasant surprise. Until then, I bid you adieu.

Have a nice day,
Ruhr’s Player

P.S.: “T Minus three days until the attack officially never took place due to lack of enemy presence. The attack will have never taken place, and the withdrawal will be assumed to be 100%.”

From the IC thread:

I have yet to see a single diplomatic act from any SATO member towards CACE. They seem far more concerned with undermining SeOCC at any cost rather than rational and reasonable talks

Actually, I have tried twice recently. Once with Anhierarch, and the second time with Seocc. Both rejected the attempt.

What exactly were these diplomatic overtures?

I've carried this over from the IC thread.


OOC: So, when I get rejected by Seocc and Anhierarch, it is NOT considered the action of CACE, right?

But when Der Angst does something on his own, it IS considered to be related with SATO?

So when an individual CACE member does something, that does not reflect CACE policy per se. But when an individual SATO member does something, you do hold SATO as an organization responsible.

Wouldn't that make you guys a bunch of hypocrits?


No it doesn't make us hypocrites, and I'll say why.

If two members of CACE refuse to play along it does not mean that all of CACE has choosen to do so. We have a forum on our boards where the whole of CACE can be addressed and that is the correct place to make sure your message has been read by the whole body. Particular nations might have there own reasons for their response (just as SATO/WBO nations will have when individually approached).

OTOH, we generally claim that DA's actions (although Knootoss is the more problematic at the monent and these comments apply to him equally) represent the whole of SATO because whenever they cause trouble for us other SATO nations tend to step into line with them. You're accusing us of ignoring ICly you, but we all know that yo guys are launching cruise missiles at out cities. Who's the bad guy here?

The specific reason that we equate DA's actions (and much of the reason for all this bad blood) with SATO is because of SeOCC's terrorism plot. In that he tried to pull DA into ito it by claiming that his investigations had lead him to DA bank accounts and he asked for some cooperation in the investigation. When DA refused to cooperate (and I;ve seen the TGs and they are not pleasant) he, under the invitaion of Lavenrunz I think (but SeOCC can confirm or deny that) posted on the WBO/SATO forums asking for assistance. No one replied.

So really, when we've tried to RP in the past and been met with obnoxious and foul TGs or utter silence why should we persist now?

The whole basis of this is an OOC grudge because DA does not like SeOCC and, I'm sure he'll deny it, Knootoss was was eventually banned from the CACE forums. It's all bullshit and most of us can;t be bothered with the hassle anymore. For god'ssake DA had an anti-SeOCC motto for his nation at one point - that's what I call obsessed.

I really just wish DA and K would let it drop because it's got too personal and too nasty to be even remotely described as fun anymore. Maybe if everyone was given some breathing space some of us could eventually engage in some RP together, but at the moment it just descends into invective and name calling. I can't be bothered with it, and yet I'm trying my best not to ignore everything that they do around Aperin.

That's my rant just about over, but this highly personal grudge match has just become a in the ass. If you're an innocent bystander looing for some RP then I apologise if things haven't exactly truned out as you hoped, but with the history of these nations I can't see it being any way else at the moment.

so a couple clarifications:

i didn't try to drag DA into the RP, he was already involved. Al Nydia, the nation that RPed the terrorists and, thus, took part in the subsequent invesetigation is still around and can verify this. the four terrorists got a big fat lump of cash wired to them from a DA bank, so he at least knew that much and was involved in the RP in at least that regard.

Lavenrunz did, in fact, invite me to address SATO; i posted in the WBO Associate board because SATO has no such board. the message is still there, i think. authored by Minister Villivich (the Minister of Social Affairs, for those wondering).

so what's my beef with DA? his nation has evidence that would tell my nation who tried to wipe us off the face of the earth (and yes, we're city state, so it would have wiped us off the earth). before i found out about the money wiring i had a huge list of suspects starting with Iesus Christi and Menelmacar, ending with random people i'd pissed off (Teritora, for instance). DA was on the list, but not high on the list, until he stonewalled me. that got my attention.

so at the least DA is guilty of obstruction of justice and aiding and abetting, since he is actively preventing me from catching those bastards. try this scenario: a totally anonymous nation, tried to nuke your capital, and you found out the nuke was Celdonian (because he, unlike SeOCC, has nukes), and when you went to Celdonia for answers Celdonia stonewalled you. you send TG's to Celdonia's allies, explaining your concerns, asking them to speak to C on your behalf. they get nowhere so you address the CACE. the CACE DOES NOT REPLY. let's remember, go to the thread, that message sat there without so much as an acknowledgement that discussions were underway. the CACE in fact never replies, and at this point you have to wonder what the hell is going on inside those closed forums.

what would you think, at that point? you know your evidence is good, you know the nuke was Celdonian, but nobody is willing to help. what do you think the CACE's position on the Celdonian nuke, and by inference, the fact that Celdonia is some how related to this attempted attack?

i drew the obvious conclusion: i know the money went through DA and i can prove it (i got a dozen ooc assurances it had), but nobody in SATO is really interested, so their position was the same: not going to help with the investigation. obstructing justice. i'll probably be typing this story forever it won't go away, mostly on account of the file is still open.

so no, we're not hypocrites, but when SATO is silent, TOTALLY SILENT, on this issue, and can't even issue a fucking apology, yeah, i think SATO is a party to the crime now. i did not take one nations actions and claim it's SATO policy, hell i don't even know how did it, but i know DA has evidence that will tell me, or put me on their trail, and i know he's sitting on it. so you figure it out, why we're so ic pissed at them.

and i TGed you this fucking story, TVC, i posted it here for those who haven't heard it, so you should know better than to accuse us of hypocrisy in this regard.

*sigh*

OK, regardless of whether the SATO or CACE version is the truth (the real truth is probably somewhere in the middle), the situation is that Seocc hates DA, and DA and Knoot hate Seocc.

I got it.

1) there is no 'CACE' version, nor is there a 'SATO' version. there is no CACE version because all my info i got from Al Nydia, so there's an Al Nydian version, i'm just a messenger. there is no SATO version because no one from that little cabal has come out with anything. why don't you go and conduct your own investigation, ask DA where the money came from. take some god damned initiative.

2) i don't hate DA, i don't hate much of anyone (except GWB, and that's just coz he looks so stupid and i'm sick of seeing his face). you might notice i've been content NOT to engage DA or K or much of anyone in RP, it's them that keep coming after us. all i want is to complete my investigation, period, that's it.

why was it so suspcious that DA wouldn't hand over the evidence? because i specifically asked him for the info to exonerate him, and if it did in fact show he was innocent, what's the hold up?

Completely ooc:

OTOH, we generally claim that DA's actions (although Knootoss is the more problematic at the monent and these comments apply to him equally) represent the whole of SATO because whenever they cause trouble for us other SATO nations tend to step into line with them.

Ok, what i say now was already said on irc. Try to learn from it.

There was a time when i was SATOs´black sheep'. Well, i`m still this 'black sheep' (Actually, from what i do, i belong to the Arda alliance, not to SATO), but i am generally accepted as an ally of considerable importance.

At that time in the past, however (the time shortly after my civil war), i was NOT liked (ICly, that is). I was considered a threat, and this opinion was correct.

Now, CACE had the chance, using means of diplomacy, hell, even acts of *gasp* friendship to push me out of SATO and disband (pushing out is impossible, i`m in the friggin co- directorate, and Aerigia is inactive, means that nobody can throw me out) the WBO.

However, instead of using diplomacy, friendship to more moderate SATO members and such, what came?

Threats. Propaganda, SATO was classified as 'evil'.

This, surprisingly enough, resulted in SATO getting [i]together.

Nothing better than a common enemy to work together.

Within an extremely short period of time, Lavenrunz contempt for DA was changed into a strong bond and contempt for CACE.

In other words, you lost your chance to score a considerable victory (Which would have let to me joining the Arda alliance, but thats a different story).

Now, AFTER you ruined all your previously good contacts with the moderate WBO/ SATO members, after my rigs had been attacked (True, i have no evidence who it was, but SeOCC classified the rigs as 'military installations' and demanded their elemination... so who am i to suspect? Santa Claus?), suddenly you decide that talks might be important.

That is, you choose to intensify diplomatic contacts to the very nations you offended just a short time before.

Now, i don´t know who teached you diplomacy, but you do not apologize, nor are you friendly to achive your aims.

No, you demand 'unconditional surrender' to your demands without offering anything.

Not only that. You fail other chances.

Menelmacar is strongly against terrorism. Menelmacar owns 34% (Now probably a bit less, not sure how much) of soldats.

What would an intelligent being do?

Ah, yes, it would go to Menelmacar, ask for help, knowing that Menelmacar is strongly against terrorism, and will most likely help you.

What did you do?

Insulting Menelmacar.

Great diplomacy, really.

It is not my fault that your investigations failed, it`s yours. If you aren`t able to play the game of diplomacy, you aren`t able to achive anything. Instead of destroying the influence of the more radical SATO nations, even destroying the WBO, which you could have done, you created a hostile atmosphere resulting in cruise missile attacks.

Watch it. It isn`t the result of ooc hatred. It´s the result of a diplomacy that utterly, totally failed.

And, seriously, your diplomatic attempts were laughable. Heck, it was one of the most amusing (or sad, depends) things i have ever seen. Literally, you copy the USA (or USSR, depends) kind of diplomacy. No sweet talks, only demands, condemnation, hatred. And you think we would like you for that?

You need a reality check.

And i already mentioned in another thread how you failed the Knootoss possibility.

The whole basis of this is an OOC grudge because DA does not like SeOCC

Now this is fun.

Let me check a few examples:

My civil war: I specifically TG Jigoku about information regarding CACE intelligence the rebels have and can give to them.

This information was, in fact, Sailune (Yes, i know you don`t believe me. I still mention it. Please don´t answer with 'You lie! You make this up!' I know you want to, i know you think that. I know you´re wrong.).

I planned a nice espionage RP, with a few CACE operatives in DA hunting for that information, while i try to get it back (Yes, yes, i know you believe i would be unfair and NEVER give you a chance to get said information...).

What did you do?

You believed i stage a civil war with it`s utter devestation, horrible social, economical, and military results, hundreds of thouands of victims and considerable damage to the international reputation of DA because, and i quote: I plan to draw CACE into a war with SATO the very moment they intervene.

Oh, of course, nations do that all the time. It´s absolutely realistic.

Then, lets take a look at the CACE boards (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE).

Well, what do we have here?

Ah, yes, the coalition department for the arts.

A flame forum exclusively to flame me and Menelmacar. In a secure environment, that is.

Countless insults to several SATO members, including me, Menelmacar, Lavenrunz, Knootoss. in several (countless?) Threads (And several other nations, because they proposed 'stupid issues' or 'warned CACE members').

And you talk about an ooc grudge we have against SeOCC/ CACE.

I`m sorry, but if you honestly believe this, you need a psychologist. Plain and simple.

Perhaps i would even point out that you wont find ANY flame of that kind in the WBO/ SATO boards, but i assume you will claim that our protected forums just prevent others to see it. (Afaik Iesus Christi read the SATO boards for some time, ask him about such stuff...).

DA, stop the condescending crap. At this stage I'm not really that interested in what happened ICly, other than to illustrate why CACe had a legitimate reraosn for breaking ties with WBO/SATO. Whether it was out ineptitude or not is neither hear not thre.

What bothers me is that things have become OOCly nasty when either of our groups are forced to interact with each other. I've asked politely that everyone just gives the others some breathing space and we allow things to cool down a little, but certain people repeatedly initiate RPs with us. And they always descend into flame. It just isn't fun, and it's become pretty much impossible for the two groups to RP effectively together.

So again, I repeat my request that we just let things simmer down a little. If someone wants to initiate RP it would be better if they TGed the other person first and they could choose whether to get involved or not.

So again, I repeat my request that we just let things simmer down a little. If someone wants to initiate RP it would be better if they TGed the other person first and they could choose whether to get involved or not.

With puppets like group 4? :)

you are such an asshole, and this is probably the last post i will ever honor your pustule ridden flesh sac with.

you do not know what Group 4 is, do you? no, you don't. all you know is that i, the ooc player, play them. they might be the name i use to cover operations by the Volunteer Army, an entity seperate from the SeOCC government, and thus would need a seperate posting name. or maybe it's a criminal organization formed for reasons unknown. maybe it's, oh my god, something really unrelated to SeOCC and i was posting for another nation, just like Al Nydia was hired to blow me up.

but you never really investigated it, so you'll never know, which is why it's just stupid you call Group 4 a puppet. you don't know what it is or how it was RPed, but then you don't care, do you? accussations are easier than introspection.

and about those fucking Red Bracelets, i started my NS career bashing Whitter for being a Stalinist. do you really think that SeOCC, much less the CACE, which is far more bunny like as a whole than i am or you realize, would ever assist Stalinists? oh we thought about intervening but the consensus was clear: the cure was worse than the poison.

and for all our 'blown opportunities,' maybe if you opened up those forums of yours people would be able to see your internal politicing; as it is, most of us don't have the time to hang on your every post and follow your poorly written connotations.

and as for SATO being closer, i notice it's so close Lavenrunz decided to leave, and that your membership is essentially shrinking, leaving just a core of mindless fuck heads who have basically run out of enemies since most of the CACE is sick of you. S&V actually quit NS because of you, contragulations fuck head.

so i guess you won, feel free to post your glassifying of all of Aperin, i'm done with you. i don't know what happened between the Iesus Christi rescue mission and now but you sure turned into a right psycopath. the CACE has principles, unlike your Melkor hiring buddies, and we don't compromise them; think about this when you wonder why we 'failed to exploit' all the 'openings.' we don't want you for allies, you're too dirty.

OOC: Lavenrunz left because of RL commitments, not because of any problems within SATO. In fact, Lavenrunz is still a member of SATO; they do not vote, however, because since I as regent am also a member of SATO, it would be a conflict of interest for me to use the votes of both Menelmacar and Lavenrunz.

When Lavenrunz's player returns in... I think June, you can ask her yourself.

~Siri