NationStates Jolt Archive

Addressing the United Nations, Finnister Grun, Chief SeOCC Delegate.

Fellow delegates, honored guests, Mr. Secretary-General;

This body recently passed a landmark resolution, codifying the ability of labor to collectively bargain and strike in order to protect the inalienable rights this body recognizes in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Food, fellow delegates, is a right, though by the UN's own count over half the world is malnourished, meaning they eat less than 1000 calories a day. Some see the Labor resolution as one which oversteps the UN's authority, one that infringes upon sovreignty, but they are wrong. Rights are meaningless if the legal superstructure does not exist to protect and make real those rights; the right to be nourished cannot be said to exist unless we create a context in which people can achieve this. And not just, but all, that's what universal means.

Labor now has, in all United Nations members, the ability to hold out against unfair treatment, against abuse, against being paid slave wages, and they are not protected from union busting and other anti-labor actions. Capital has always had the unmitigated ability to strike, to refuse to employ, of this there is no doubt. Now the playing field has been leveled, that is all that has happened, now the rights we all recognize each human being to have are within reach for all humanity.

Some nations, though, thumb their nose at the United Nations, and right now I draw our attention to the most egregious offender, the DDRK, Knootoss.

Parliament majority for Definition of Labour Union Activity change act in DDR

THE HAGUE- After polling the leaders of major parties and senior MP’s in a survey Nova found that there was a workable majority for adopting a change in the “Definition of Labor Union Activity” definition in an emergency law, and perhaps even in a direct ministerial order to avoid further problems that have arisen since the UN adopted the ‘Rights of Labour Unions’ resolution. By adopting this resolution the UN definition would be replaced by a new definition in line with the definition used by the governments of AnteNicea, Thrace-Tailteann, Daistallia and Uber Neo Zeon

By adopting this measure the Unions would effectively no longer be defined as unions. To preserve the Knootian consensus-based poldermodel the unions would be granted the status of political “Worker Representative Organisations” or WRO’s. Thusly they can preserve their seats in the the Social Economic Council and their representative function in government-employer-employee talks.

According to the new definition “The Proper area of concern for Labour Unions shall be confined only to those employer policies that directly affect the working conditions of Union members within the work place. If at any time any single, or group of, Labour Union(s) act in any manner to influence any area of society not solely and directly determined by the workplace policies of their employers they shall then be legally viewed as "Political Organizations with WRO status" and thus NO LONGER COVERED by the Provisions of the UN Resolution on Labour Unions and then subject to any and all Laws of Knootoss applicable to conduct of ‘WRO’s’.”

Clearly this is a violation of Sections 1 and 7 of the Labor Union Resolution:

1. All nations must recognize unions formed for the purpose of collective representation of workers.

7. National laws shall not be made to impair the guarantees provided for in this resolution. Laws that contradict these guarantees shall not be created or enforced.

Knootoss no longer recognizes unions, and have passed laws that remve the guarantees placed under this resolution. As they are in complete violation of the resolution, and now we call upon the United Nations to take action.

If we allow Knootoss to ignore this resolution we reduce the UN to a might makes right instituion, where only those resolutions which can be enforced are valid, and this is not the rule of law. It is the rule of barbarism. Equally, if we fail to apply consequences to this kind of action, what is the purpose then of the United Nations? Democracy, for better or worse, means a majority will trump a minority. Nations cannot simply opt out when they don't like the decision of the majority; under this paradigm, the UN ceases to exist, and remains only as a shell, useless, pointless, dead.

Is this what we shall leave to our children, a world where global accountability has disappeared? We live together, on one planet (ooc: i know i know...), in a world increasingly bound to each others' fate. Global commons, the oceans, the air, rain forests, what happens there will affect us all, which means there must be some form of global governance to overlook the joined interests of humanity.

Do not let one resolution that you may disagree with destroy our hope for finding solutions to the problems we have in common. If you do not like the resolution you have resourse within the law, within the United Nations; do not go outside the law by ignoring what your fellows here have deemed legal, or what hope do you have of your resolutions being adhered to.

We call upon all nations to condemn the actions of Knootoss for scorning the rule of law, for weakening the global importance of the United Nations, and for defying the laws of an institution they belong to. We call for action, and sooner rather than later, to nip this at the bud, before we find this institution as empty as the British Crown.

OOC: Hey, we ignored the resolution! Condemn us too! 8) What are you going to do about it?

~Siri

Thess witless and infantine arguments between both sides are borish and acrid. I suggest that Seocc put his wooden spoon away and cease stirring up the situation. Cannot you all just get along?

Prime Minister Manalir Produnir
Head of State
The Most Serene Republic of Tranquillia

OOC: The fact you're not in the UN might have something to do with you being able to ignore it, but if you were, I'd imagine he'd call you a hypocrite.

OOC: The fact you're not in the UN might have something to do with you being able to ignore it, but if you were, I'd imagine he'd call you a hypocrite.

ooc: damn, you got me.

OOC: *Pssssst* That was supporting you!

Galadriël looks up. She had just addressed the United Nations regarding the matter of the implementation of resolutions. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98245) and wondered why the SeOCC delegate did not respond in the same session. (OOC: the same thread.) Casually she walked to the stand:

“Esteemed delegates. I think this is just another example of anticapitalist hypocrisy. There are hundreds, if not thousands of UN members who ignore that resolution on Labour. We do not even ignore it; we abide perfectly by its terms. The new definition of Unions is perfectly in line with the definition used by the governments of AnteNicea, Thrace-Tailteann, Daistallia and Uber Neo Zeon so I really don’t see the problem. We still discuss our economic issues with ‘worker representative organisations’ or WRO’s so the system still functions. In other words: we comply with the text of the resolution.

I think the speech about the rainforest and the children was very endearing but these matters have no contextual relevance to the subject at hand. And I think I repeat myself when I say that the UN is not a global Imperial government but a gathering of sovereign nations. I hope the esteemed delegates from all over the world will recognise this.

The fact that this condemnation is directed only against us is clear proof of its geopolitical motivations. Without any legal basis, the SeOCC delegate is meddling in domestic policies. However I warmly invite Mr. Grunt to file an official condemnation. I am convinced it will never, ever, find a proper majority. Or even a qualified minority for that matter.”

Galadriël walks back from the stand to her seat and exchanges a few looks with WBO member representatives. She gives a quick handshake to the Ruhrian representative and sits down, leaning back unceremoniously with a big smirk on her face. Her eyes linger in the direction of the “Aperin” corner of the assembly hall, curious how they will respond.


OOC: How nice SeOCC. You don’t ignore me anyways. How sweet. :)
*Takes the little Israeli flag from his desk and waves it around in the direction of the SeOCC corner of the assembly hall.*

But Knootoss is not, in fact, ignoring the resolution.

Regarding section 1, they clearly recognize labor unions:

According to the new definition “The Proper area of concern for Labour Unions shall be confined only to those employer policies that directly affect the working conditions of Union members within the work place. [...]"

There you have the Knootian definition of a labor union. Since Knootoss is legally defining the term, they must legally recognize it. And the purpose of such unions is the collective representation of workers (to use the resolution's terminology), in order to positively affect those workers' conditions. Therefore, there is no violation of section 1.

As regards section 7, this verdict does not contradict any of the resolution's guarantees. No part of the proposed law removes any protections from labor unions. It simply adds a non-labor union status, the "political WRO," in order to better differentiate between a union seeking to better its members' work conditions and a political group seeking to influence an exterior political policy.

No part of the resolution defines "labor union" beyond "collective representation of workers," so Knootoss is not violating the resolution by drawing this distinction. And no part of the resolution has to do with organizations of the sort Knootoss defines as political WROs, so Knootoss is not violating the resolution by limiting the latter. Knootoss is obeying the resolution to the letter.

Victor Delacroix
Envoy/Observer

Galadriël walks over to the seat of the Ravenspire observer: "Thank you for pointing out the obvious. I'm sure they already know it though."

She winks and walks back to her seat.

The current DDR of Knootos law might obey the letter of the resolution, but it does not obey the spirit of the resolution. Having reviewed both the Knootian law and the resolution, we must sadly admit that, in theory, DDR of Knootos is perfectly within it's rights to make the change to their laws.

However, the part that was not defined in the UN resolution was that Labour Unions and their... mission, if you will, covers more than just the working conditions of their members. The mission of labour unions is also to ensure that their members recieve adequate payments for their work. The new Knootian law can easily be interpretated so that Labour Unions can only affect the working conditions of their members, not the amount of money they get payed for the work. In fact I'm quite certain this was the 'hidden meaning' of the new Knootian law.

Zach Id,
Minister of Economics
First Outside

It may be strange and new data to many of you, but the world is in recession (at least the last time I checked). Many economies have suffered while others like the New Separatist economy have boomed in a short amount of time (reasonable to very strong). Of course, I say the rights of the workers should be held sacrosanct. However, Labour unions are quite often corrupt institutions that ruin the economy which is not what the Knootian government wants at a time like this. Economies should not be a battleground for civil, political, ideological and social arguments. Economies should be the harnessing of efficient methods in order to provide a good standard of living for all. Sometimes, less is more.

Lord Zhovhan
Leader of the New Separatist Movement
Current Chairman of the Separatist Confederacy

Several Daiamid Councilmembers watched the UN delegates discuss the matter. Connected to the UN conference through a streaming holographic connection, they were very able to view the proceedings.

"I don't understand. Knootoss is a member of both WBO and SATO. If they don't like the UN resolutions, why don't they simple leave the UN? Any member of the UN should recognize that at some point, any vote by majority will get you into a situation that you yourself have not chosen. It's simply something one should accept as inherent to UN membership"

"Yes, you may be right. However, I think this labor resolution has had a much heavier impact on Knootoss than they expected, and that they try to reverse the effect with their current actions."

"Which is still no excuse. The UN exists to stimulate global coöperation and integration. That means that the international community should be more important than any individual country. Knootoss should either accept the UN and the advantages and disadvantages inherent in membership, or leave that institution."

"So we actually agree with Seocc that the Knootians are whining old women in this?"

"Well, I don't think Seocc would put it like that, and I also think you should not let the Knootians hear it, but yes. Well, at least we are still making a profit."

"On the whole, yes. But two of the larger conglomerates have already been forces into a merger, because their individual equity and liquidity was not enough to survive the recession."

"Yes I heard about that. Ershu and Milosh isn't it? Both conglomerates with heavy presence on foreign markets, more than 80% of all their activities, so I've heard"

"Will you two be silent! I'm watching Galadriel here! Shake that booty girl!"

United Nations general assembly

The Knootian delegation (and some others too I'm sure) stand up and give Lord Zhovhan a standing ovation.

OOC: First Outside. Yeah, you are right; this is now how you may have intended it but I am perfectly in my right to do this. And wage policy is and always has been an instrument of the Social Economic Council and the central Autumn talks and this has always been so. Your resolution would in fact force me to "liberalise" (what irony) my wage policies in favour of Unions - and I don't like that thought. So unions can strike for working conditions, yeah, but not for wages of other "political" items. That's what the WRO's are for.

Basically though, the Unionists aren't worse off then they were before the UN resolution. The system has only become a little bit more complicated.

United Nations general assembly

The Knootian delegation (and some others too I'm sure) stand up and give Lord Zhovhan a standing ovation.

OOC: First Outside. Yeah, you are right; this is now how you may have intended it but I am perfectly in my right to do this. And wage policy is and always has been an instrument of the Social Economic Council and the central Autumn talks and this has always been so. Your resolution would in fact force me to "liberalise" (what irony) my wage policies in favour of Unions - and I don't like that thought. So unions can strike for working conditions, yeah, but not for wages of other "political" items. That's what the WRO's are for.

Basically though, the Unionists aren't worse off then they were before the UN resolution. The system has only become a little bit more complicated.

Lord Zhovhan takes a bow and sits back down in his chair.

Mr. Grun again at the podium.

The fact is that you cannot limit what 'representation of workers' means without trampling both Secions 1 and 7, despite the unsupproted assertions of certain delegations. 'Collective representation' as a legal term is comprehensive, and so Unions, by the definition of this resolution, passed by the General Assembly, are thus given that overarching duty.

National legislatures may not play sophistry games to circumvent UN resolutions, to do so would, again, reduce us to a might makes right system. Removing the most critical part of a Union's duty, the very reason Unions were formed so many years ago, is to betray the very essence of this resolution. Unions represent workers' interests, period. The state may not tell Unions what they can and cannot speak on, period.

I see no compelling legal arguments offered to contradict what is already clear: Knootoss has passed a law, and made great trumpetting noises about it, that violates Sections 1 and 7 of the Labor Union Resolution. Knootoss' laws do not recognize Unions as organizations that represent the collective interests of workers because the state has limited which interests a Union may represent, and in doing so Knootoss has violated Section 7.

If Envoy Delacroix were to have his way we would force the UN to treat nations like children, endlessly listing all the things we can and cannot do. There is no nation or legal system in the world which functions on this incredily short sighted principle; laws are written to be comprehensive, to include a concept rather than a two thousand page list (ooc: it is also impossible to do so since resolutions can only be so long in NS). It is clear what is being attempted is the brute force creation of a loophole, to force the UN to accept sophistry simply because it is not overtly and obviously articulated that 'collective represenation' means to collectively represent ALL interests of the workers.

If Knootoss does not like the terms of this resolution, please, sirs, the door is to your left. Resign from the United Nations and free yourself of these complications. If you choose to stay, abide by the rule and spirit of the law, and seek not to undermine the stature and authority of this body. Your actions set a poor precedent, and send a message that the UN can be circumvented by clever lawyers and liars, whose interpretations are for sale. Abide the law or leave, those are you options.

If Envoy Delacroix were to have his way we would force the UN to treat nations like children

Lord Zhovhan stands up and retorts across the hall.

"Well you certainly treat other nations like children too, you know!"

Your actions set a poor precedent, and send a message that the UN can be circumvented by clever lawyers and liars,

"Yes, you do your lieing bit as well. For example you are using the United Nations, a tool despite my lack of membership, does some good in this world. You are using that United Nations as a base upon which to strike and discredit Knootoss for no real crime than exercising their soveriegn national rights, what do you really care for the non-compliance of such a small thing? I say you care nothing! All you care (or should really care) is that your own citizens are fed and your own influence bloated. We find your meddling offensive and hereby demand that you apologize to Knootoss for this insult to his good name!"

Lord Zhovhan was red, he composed himself then sat down.

An assistant delegate stands up and yells at Lord Zhovhan as he steps down from the podium.

You're right, we don't care about people! All we want to do is push our agenda of univesal egalitariansim!

The Secretary General has to call for order as several delegations from various non-capitalist nations fall over laughing.

From far away, in a chair close enough to the exit for him to sneak out or into a crowded session without disturbing the others and shadowed enough for him to take a nap when it got boring, the special envoy Andersson rose and spoke, beating his desk with a shoe to quiet people down:

Dear Fellow delegates. God is truly great! For once again he makes it possible for the elves to show their true evil faces for the world. The elf is right when she says that UN shouldn't meddle too deep in our internal affairs but more in the relations between the nations. Here we have at least two nations that has spoke up against the UN and declaring its members and their decisions not only void but puppets and retards. How very convenient...

I remember other resolutions not fitting my nations exact wishes, should we simply say. "The UN is governed by elven scum and yes-sayers, we hereby declare this decision uncomfortable and void." NO! If the shoe doesn't fit then Leave the UN. And if you don't want to leave the UN and still don't want to follow their rulings we had better to expel you. Because in this forum all voices are of equal worth, elves, and your gravships and elftricks cannot threaten this forum to obedience. This is not simply about unions, this is about principals, either you follow the rules or you don't get the rights to impose your rules on others. If you are not comfortable with a ruling, then you better try to make a new ruling the next time or bend the rules to fit you. I am disgusted by these so called "capitalistic" nations and their fear of unions. Their workforce is mere slaves in the hands of their greedy inhuman masters. Their masters just lack the intellectual flexibility to understand how to use labour unions to create a better, healthier and happier workforce and thus creating more worth in the productionforce.

A fit of choke coughing erupts from several SeOCC delegates, having just realized they agree with a member of the Reich. A broken clock ...

Unconfirmed reports state that the Overlord looked at the report of this argument, then looked at the resolutions tacked to the wall, each with a tally beside them for how many times he had broken them, and then proceded to laugh himself silly. "Why leave the UN when you can ignore them, get the perks and have fun breaking all kinds of 'rules'?"

The Celdonian ambassador discreetly applauds the Vegana delegate, and when the hubbub dies down he interjects in the proceedings:

I wish to know why Lord Zovhan, representing a nation which is not a member of this body, is being allowed to address the membership. Indeed, for a non member to abuse a member in this manner is unacceptable, and I move for his removal from the chamber.

OOC: If you're not in the UN what are you doing here anyway? This is an IC thread supposedly taking place in the debating chamber of the UN, not a shouting match in a pub.

The Celdonian ambassador discreetly applauds the Vegana delegate, and when the hubbub dies down he interjects in the proceedings:

I wish to know why Lord Zovhan, representing a nation which is not a member of this body, is being allowed to address the membership. Indeed, for a non member to abuse a member in this manner is unacceptable, and I move for his removal from the chamber.

OOC: If you're not in the UN what are you doing here anyway? This is an IC thread supposedly taking place in the debating chamber of the UN, not a shouting match in a pub.

Celdonia, my lack of membership to the UN is a temporary inconvenience which I intend to rectify at my latest convenience. This is of course besides the point. Surely a non-member nation would be aloud to send an 'ambassador' to the United Nations, I and many others see little harm in my presence and if you were indeed such great debaters, then surely you would silence your Anti-Capitalist and Reich dogs and get straight to the argument rather than hound at my ear for my removal from the chamber.

(Surely the NS UN would have no objection to allowing non-member nations to send a representative in order to allow for no breakdown of communication. That seems fair to me.)

_______________________________
Lord Zhovhan
Leader of the New Separatist Movement
Current Chairman of the Separatist Confederacy
Visit the Separatist Confederacy (http://s3.invisionfree.com/The_Separatists_) Forum

-----------------------------------------------
United Nations General Assembly
-----------------------------------------------


An assistant delegate stands up and yells at Lord Zhovhan as he steps down from the podium.

You're right, we don't care about people! All we want to do is push our agenda of univesal egalitariansim

The Secretary General has to call for order as several delegations from various non-capitalist nations fall over laughing.

The Knootian UN ambassador mutters: “Indeed. Because they have the ‘right’ ideology they get to insult people and ignore sovereignty. Egalitarian… pfffft….

Galadriël adds mockingly: Deliberate militant anticapitalist plotting to destroy other peoples economies (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95267) they mean surely. To bring their precious revolution closer maybe?

Galadriël notes that the discussion has paused for a moment and she looks up to the chairman with a questioning look in her eyes, he is clearly wary of the entire discussion so she decides against replying again. "The representatives of the Dutch Democratic Republic do not have anything more to say."

The elf reflects on the day with her eyes closed: Ah, well, it’s not as if anything productive would have come from it anyways. We’re still perfectly in the green legally and no speech is going to change that. These UN discussions are nothing more the ideological masturbation for them. Ah, well, masturbation is fun sometimes. She grins and leans back even further in her seat and openly yawns as the delegate from n00bia is giving his governments opinion on the matter. After special envoy Andersson speech, she notes the reactions from the SeOCC and Celdonian delegates and whispers to one of the other Knootians:

“CACE and Reich still best buddies. And that anti-elf bastard Andersson will get his due someday. Same for the Celdonians, apparently mocking elves is bon ton in their circles. Neofascists – millions of Elves die of oppression and they applaud.”

The Knootian replies, a bit disturbed by the rather blunt statement:
“Well, we are getting ‘support’ from the corporate islands apparently.”

"Indeed I noticed", Galadriël replies. "I've had enough fun for one day. I'm going back home. The plane is already waiting."

And with that she stands up and walks away, taking the emergency exit near the door on the right.

…::: quote of the day from the CACE boards when discussing the labour resolution :::…
"I agree with SeOCC. While your phraseology is perfectly agreeable to me, we have to beat the capitalists at one of their best games: trickery, and rhetoric is a powerful tool. It has to be phrased in words that won't raise flags for them. Remember, this sword has two edges: grabbing attention, abd studiously directing attention away from content."

Andersson watched Galadriel leave with great pleasure and a mocking smile on his face. Well, elven bitch, now you leave with your tail between your legs. Maybe soon the days of elven murderers roaming the earth will come to an end. Maybe one day the elven plague will be cured. He looked at the CACE-members, still looking surprised that he had spoken and concured with them on a subject. We may agree today and maybe many other times in the future, CACE is much less of a threat than SATO with their abominations and elven harlots. Our enemies enemy is our friend and if it means that I must concur with communist scums then it is a low price to pay.

ooc: again, NOT COMMUNISTS.

The Tarricani Ambassador remains silent throughout the issue. Which is fortunate as he has already been reprimanded once for snoring.

Narcolepsy is a wonderfull thing Thought his aide as his hand skipped between three sheet of paper. One was a stern rejection of SeOCC's arrant abuse of the UN's time for what was clearly a personal grudge. The next was a summary of events and the third was a regretfull observation of Knootoss's failure to live up to the ideals of the UN.

If the Ambassador woke up while the session was still going on then he could read the precis and chose which of the other two (expertly written, I might add) speaches to use. And if he doesn't thought the aide then I get to make up the Ambassador's mind for him.

He grins and continues writing, even as the Ambassor's slumber grows deeper.
(edit... darned tags)

I thought CACE effectively ignored Knoot.

I thought CACE effectively ignored Knoot.

No, they just ignored parts of me they did not like.

I just effectively ignore them. See the other post.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2260366#2260366

ooc: again, NOT COMMUNISTS.

OOC: Hey, Dont tell Mr. Andersson what to believe of you :wink:

Lord Zhovhan thought soundly, reflecting the events of the day so far.

Excellent, the Communist fools stand not a chance in the war for the hearts and minds of everyone!

Excellent, the Communist fools stand not a chance in the war for the hearts and minds of everyone!

ooc: one might wonder, though, why the CACE is far larger and has grown faster than the WBO/SATO, or why the IFTA is growing at a rate that has surprised even my best guesses.

IFTA... "Bridge Treaty"? It should be called "unconditional surrender".

~Siri

Excellent, the Communist fools stand not a chance in the war for the hearts and minds of everyone!

ooc: one might wonder, though, why the CACE is far larger and has grown faster than the WBO/SATO, or why the IFTA is growing at a rate that has surprised even my best guesses.

ooc: CACE big? My region is bigger then CACE, and that's a lot less nations. I think it's time we opened talks with SATO about some friendship treaty again.

ooc: CACE big? My region is bigger then CACE, and that's a lot less nations. I think it's time we opened talks with SATO about some friendship treaty again.

OOC: Are you using some unconventional number system I'm unaware of? Sisgardia has 19 members to CACE's 45 (IFTA has 66 signatories). If you really want to talk about regions though we could mention the Anticapitlaist Alliance's 224 members.

We could even compare the activity on the relevent forums:

From the WBO/SATO forums (http://invisionfree.com/forums/wbo_and_sato)


Our members have made a total of 3,308 posts
We have 63 registered members


From the CACE forums (http://invisionfree.com/forums/cace)

Our members have made a total of 9,796 posts
We have 147 registered members


Or maybe you were comparing populations? Well CACE has a collective population of 42,681 million, so I doubt Sisgardia beats it on that.

Apart from that, thanks for the excuse to spout some facts about the size of CACE :wink:

Edited mixed up text.

Since when does quantity mean quality? Sisgardia, as a region, has had dozens of technology-related roleplays, has one of the best regional defence systems in NS (as far as I know of), has an unusual high percentage of active players, and (and that is one of the things i like most) it does not claim to be the best alliance out there.

The SFN is a tight group of high-quality players, that never needed to retcon or ignore anything. CACE might be bigger, but they cannot say that.

Since when does quantity mean quality? Sisgardia, as a region, has had dozens of technology-related roleplays, has one of the best regional defence systems in NS (as far as I know of), has an unusual high percentage of active players, and (and that is one of the things i like most) it does not claim to be the best alliance out there.

The SFN is a tight group of high-quality players, that never needed to retcon or ignore anything. CACE might be bigger, but they cannot say that.

OOC: The SFN may be small, but we're nasty :twisted:

Especially the SFN E-Evil Trio, consiting of GDT, TVC and DA :wink:

Since when does quantity mean quality? Sisgardia, as a region, has had dozens of technology-related roleplays, has one of the best regional defence systems in NS (as far as I know of), has an unusual high percentage of active players, and (and that is one of the things i like most) it does not claim to be the best alliance out there.

The SFN is a tight group of high-quality players, that never needed to retcon or ignore anything. CACE might be bigger, but they cannot say that.

ooc:
Well, the question of quality or somesuch was never disputed. Celdonia simply wished to put the record straight regarding the relative size of Sisgardia and the CACE, which Diablo_NL disputed.

OK, no problem with that.