NationStates Jolt Archive

Labour Unions resolution sends Knootian economy spinning out of control.
Government refuses to uphold UN resolution any longer

KNOOTCAP – Government today announced that drastic measures had to be taken in order to counter the recent economic recession triggered by the “Labour Unions” resolution. The resolution effectively crippled the consensus economy last year actually causing a brief but painful recession during the third quarter. The economy has declined to “powerhouse” status, so Knootoss is still a first world country.

The resolution, a fabrication of the CACE UN panel, gave labour unions extensive rights against government interference in their affairs, effectively ripping apart the domestic structural talks which usually steered the macroeconomic developments.

As a result of this the annual Autumn talks between employers and employees failed as unions demanded a general 14 percent raise in pay. for While the loss of productivity by the ensuing strikes is minimal the failure of the autumn talks has caused a loss of faith of investors in the Knootian economy. In the end, a 7,5 percent raise for most sectors was agreed upon on regional and sectoral levels, however this is an unprecedented number in a country depending on wage moderation for much of it’s welfare. The implementation of the measure has reduced competitiveness of the Knootian economy versus WBO members who are not members of the United Nations. Unemployment has risen by a sharp 4,3 percent, especially in export sectors such as the information technology and automobile manufacturing industries.

The government also announced that it would now officially ignore the resolution and take a more active stance in employee-employer negotiations. As a spokeswoman said: “It’s our system. It has always worked like that and there really was no good reason to change it.” She added that “UN resolutions are ignored all the time. So far we have been the good little boy in the UN; if anyone has a problem with our position they can file a resolution to condemn us.”

The RCPK managed to put a programme of radical tax cuts through Parliament to get the economy back to it’s frightening level. The goal of a 40% flat income tax level was named as “ambitious, but painfully needed.” Cuts are directed especially at the many welfare programmes that have been recently initiated after the implementation of the resolution. As SLP leader Dittrich commented: “Really, it’s nice that someone who has never worked in his life can afford to have two cars but things have gone out of hand. And we are also going to look very critically at the free ice-cream in hospitals that is covered by the welfare system right now. ” There are unconfirmed rumours of cutting into the defence rearmament programme and the development of the strategic nuclear arsenal.

However the coalition parties agreed that such a programme should also encompass more funds for higher education and investment in technology and research.

The economic malaise has sent economic conservatives soaring in the polls, and the RCPK is now reasonably on par with the greens, should elections take place today. Conservative leader Bolkestein has promised a programme of “jobs, jobs, jobs” should his party be elected into government next year. The SLP has lost the huge win predicted in the polls last year, but still remains stable relative to their current position.

OOC: more people who like their economies refuse to uphold this sillyness?

We, the nation of Taka were likewise upset about the formation of workers unions, however have discovered a unique way around this problem. Mainly, as all companies are nationalized, the only way to be a member of the union is to be a member of the party, and with this new resolution, the ranks of the Takian Party have swelled massivly with new hearts and minds being won over daily.

Ah... erm... well. I guess that it may work in your nation, but that really isn't our, umh, style. :?
~Some representative carrying a "do not associate me with commie dictatorships" sign.

Nightly BUMP

What, I'm a dictatorship again? Blah, time to go back towards "Father Knows Best" Closest thing to an imperial principality I've seen, and we are nationals, not socilists, difference is that if you don't work you don't eat.

Goobergunchia, as DU Delegate, voted FOR the resolution. However, we have yet to receive any communications from the Compliance Ministry regarding this resolution and will reserve judgement at this time.

<---- is immediately pelted with tomatoes

Lord Evif, Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
DU Regional Delegate

OOC: Think that's bad? Ours dropped down to Thriving.

Curses to the UN!

Laws have been enacted to bring the Liberal Unitary Republic of Goobergunchia into compliance with the United Nations "The Rights of Labor Unions" resolution.

Economy before resolution adoption: Good
Economy after resolution adoption: Good

:P

Economy before: Frightening
Economy Afterwards: Frightening.

The UN has never been able to hurt my economy so far no matter what Idotic laws they pass, theres ways around them...

Chimaea has always had labour unions of some sort, so this resolution didn't change much in the domestic scene. We have controls on the unions from doing anything too silly via the Courts, which can order a union to stop an action if there is enough reason for it.

For the public's safty is always good one and can be true, they can't get you for protecting your citizens.

It didn't touch our economy. Haaregradia keeps trucking along at Frightening.

Can't do that, Knoot. As long as you're in the UN, you abide by the UN resolutions. If you don't like them, resign.

Economy before: Frightening
Economy Afterwards: Frightening.

The UN has never been able to hurt my economy so far no matter what Idotic laws they pass, theres ways around them...
OOC: Same Here:

Economy before: Imploded
Economy after: Imploded

They can't raise it either no matter what idiotic "free trade" laws that get passed.

Which reminds me.

IC: You can't ignore it, but you can have some fun with it. Since the Qaaolchouraav numeric system is base 12, after the metric resolution got passed we sent people into countries that voted for it (in my mind, not ICly, as I was in CA at the time) and gave them a tremendous headache. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

~To the Knootian government~

Due to recent investments and expected gains on the TIN capital markets, the Vortex Corporation is able to offer Knootoss to hire "gastarbeiders" for it's industries. With Hoverdyne industries* being one of our largest branches, we have recently coped with a downfall in worker supply for that particular industry. Investments in Just in Time manufacturing, Total Quality Management and ERP packages have ensured massive economies of scale in this branche of industries. Several conglomerates have announced mass expansion in the form of corporate diversification and market penetration. However, despite having the capital and technology to do so, we are short of workers to realize this venture.

We would like to investigate the possibility of hiring some 85.000 Knootian workers in order to fill this, hopefully temporary, gap in our industries. Most of them would be directly employed in our production teams, but we also have a need for administrative personnel, operations managers, treasurers and financial controllers.

We are particularly interested in the Knootian workers because they already have the education and experience that the jobs require, as well as the skill to speak both English and Dutch, our two primary languages. The conglomerates, mainly owned by Kiithid S'Jet and Paktu, have announced that each worker will be hired for a period of six years, with a standard wage 2,1% above current Knootian average standards. Also, housing will be provided by the conglomerates. Each worker will be granted temporary native status in Corporate territory. After the period of six years, we expect to have trained sufficient workers of our own, and the Knootians may then return home.

We hope to receive your reply soon.

Nejra Paktu,
Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Council

* Hoverdyne industries are my equivalent of Automobile manufacturing. And since a lot of the workfloor tasks consist of operating robots and stations similar to car manufacturers, 'bijscholen' should only take a month or so.

Can't do that, Knoot. As long as you're in the UN, you abide by the UN resolutions. If you don't like them, resign.

I believe he's allowed to RP whatever he likes. Since when is this a Mod issue?!?

Ballotonia

Can't do that, Knoot. As long as you're in the UN, you abide by the UN resolutions. If you don't like them, resign.

I believe he's allowed to RP whatever he likes. Since when is this a Mod issue?!?

Ballotonia

OOC: I can't ignore it in the sense that I can undo the effects because they are hardcoded. However I can RP ignoring the resolution ICly. We have unions but government can interfere in strikes or the internal affairs as this is a democratically legitimised government. That is what I mean here. In RL nations ignore UN resolutions all the time anyways. Besides this is turning into a global recession.

Umh... Vortex. IC Reply to your post pending. It deservers a good reply and not something made hastily...

Shortly after the passing of this resolution, The Imperial Navy has turned it's back on the money grabbing, evil UN.

Can't do that, Knoot. As long as you're in the UN, you abide by the UN resolutions. If you don't like them, resign.

I believe he's allowed to RP whatever he likes. Since when is this a Mod issue?!?

Ballotonia

The UN resolution has a direct and visable effect on his nation's statistics. Thusly, it's a little difficult to claim nothing has happened when it in fact has.

And since when is everything I say said as a mod?

ooc: The resolution inflicts the stats, yes. But you can RP it as 'One time shock', and while you`re working the stats back up, you eleminate the UN resolutions influence.

He can say that 'The UN laws have been implemented, but the parliament is already discussing abandoning them'.

Just like you can keep biochem weapons when in the UN... don`t tell anyone, and make sure the UN inspectors don`t see anything...

OOC: I'm RPing this as a recession so I can justify the measures I am going to take: cutting taxes and welfare. This may even have to become a continuing policy as all those damn resolutions will have welfare going up regardless of what I do.

Can't do that, Knoot. As long as you're in the UN, you abide by the UN resolutions. If you don't like them, resign.

I believe he's allowed to RP whatever he likes. Since when is this a Mod issue?!?

Ballotonia

The UN resolution has a direct and visable effect on his nation's statistics. Thusly, it's a little difficult to claim nothing has happened when it in fact has.

And since when is everything I say said as a mod?

I've seen people RP their nations as if they are animals (as in: one animal), or a car, or a plane, etc... Yes, it's a tad difficult to RP a plane if you're supposed to have 100 million inhabitants, but those numbers simply are ignored for RP purposes (actually in that case the entire description is ignored, as it's not even RPed as a nation anymore!).

Knoot isn't pretending nothing has happened. That's why this thread exists. He's RPing stuff DID happen.

Since you're ordering Knoot to make a choice between RPing the way you want him to, or resign from the UN, you must be doing so with some sort of authority. Do you have any authority other than Modship we should know about in this context? If not on the basis of your Modship, may I ask how or why you feel it's appropriate to order a fellow player how to play this game?

Ballotonia

Not ordering. 'Tis my opinion. And why does it in any way matter to you?

Not ordering. 'Tis my opinion. And why does it in any way matter to you?

Hmm. Your statement doesn't come across as a friendly suggestion to me.

Is him being the delegate of my home region enough to warrant it mattering to me? I'd hate to lose Knoot as our UN Delegate, which will happen if he were to resign from the UN as you demand/suggest.

Ballotonia

Now that the oppressed workers of the world have the full and active support of the United Nations, their ruthless exploiters are finding it harder to bleed them dry. While the short-term profit margins of corporations may fall, the standard of living of the worker is already rising.
The hysterical panic of the free slave market faction is a symptom of its notorious short sightedness.
The relatively fair wage and the much deserved leisure time won by the workers will lead to a higher demand for goods and services and thus fuel the economies of UN member states.

Though this resolution will certainly lead to greater social justice and economic prosperity, the fate of the common man will forever be in peril until the means of production is directed by those who operate them.

-Eugene V. Debs Lerner
of the University Collective at Port Bakunin

#tag#

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

this resolution will certainly lead to greater social justice and economic prosperity, the fate of the common man will forever be in peril until the means of production is directed by those who operate them.

-Eugene V. Debs Lerner
of the University Collective at Port Bakunin

hear here!

Felicitations!

Felix Jethoscopes
Shiree Herald to the UN

Knootoss are there any corporations where the stock has basically hit rock bottom and investors are looking to pull out immediately? If so Belem will purchase the stocks for upwards of double their actual marketshare value(if a stock is 1 dollar a share we will get investors 2 dollars a share.)

Once again, the UN has proven that Beelze's recent decision to resign its seat in that corrupt body was a wise one.

And so when, out of concern for our common workers, we prevented the handfuls of insurgents who, having heard news of this resolution (but not, apparently, the news that we had left the UN just days before), were attempting to disrupt our economic harmony, our efforts to protect the Beelze way of life were heralded throughout the land.

And if any other nations should need proof that the citizens of Beelze are in overwhelming support of the government's handling of the matter, they need only note the fact that nary a word of protest has been uttered nor written in any of the government-run television networks and newspapers in the days since we televised the insurgents' executions.

Mephisto
Foreign Minister,
The Dominion of Beelze

Knootoss are there any corporations where the stock has basically hit rock bottom and investors are looking to pull out immediately? If so Belem will purchase the stocks for upwards of double their actual marketshare value(if a stock is 1 dollar a share we will get investors 2 dollars a share.)"Torture is commonly used to extract information from suspected criminals, naturists are jailed regularly for indecent exposure, teachers regularly paddle unruly students, and funding for education has been redirected into the military."

We wonder wether the people of Knootoss would not have qualms about their industry being directed by a tyranny with such brutal policies.

Knootoss are there any corporations where the stock has basically hit rock bottom and investors are looking to pull out immediately? If so Belem will purchase the stocks for upwards of double their actual marketshare value(if a stock is 1 dollar a share we will get investors 2 dollars a share.)"Torture is commonly used to extract information from suspected criminals, naturists are jailed regularly for indecent exposure, teachers regularly paddle unruly students, and funding for education has been redirected into the military."

We wonder wether the people of Knootoss would not have qualms about their industry being directed by a tyranny with such brutal policies.

Well the corporations are the ones who are making the stock purchases the government is just encouraging it.

Knootoss are there any corporations where the stock has basically hit rock bottom and investors are looking to pull out immediately? If so Belem will purchase the stocks for upwards of double their actual marketshare value(if a stock is 1 dollar a share we will get investors 2 dollars a share.)"Torture is commonly used to extract information from suspected criminals, naturists are jailed regularly for indecent exposure, teachers regularly paddle unruly students, and funding for education has been redirected into the military."

We wonder wether the people of Knootoss would not have qualms about their industry being directed by a tyranny with such brutal policies.

Well the corporations are the ones who are making the stock purchases the government is just encouraging it.

Shortly after the aforementioned resolution was passed, the Automite economy took a serious hit, similar to the Knootian economy. Whereas the economy was rated at Frightening just a few years ago, it has plunged to Powerhouse (not terribly serious, but definitely uncomfortable) and the UN ranking gave the MSRA the appearance of a Corrupt Dictatorship. President Hart called an emergency meeting of his cabinet, and the bureau directors were nearly unanimous in their desire to pull out of the UN. While the UN's stated goals are noble, certain members [at this point a nod was given toward the Enodian ambassador] have perverted the organization for their own self-serving desires. In its present state, we as a nation cannot continue our relations with it.(In private, the president was quoted as saying "Sic semper tyrannis.")

Many government officials have acknowledged that the road back to Automastan's former state will be difficult, especially with the recent change in demographics: more Automites than ever now affiliate thenselves with some kind of liberal philosophy. Already, small demonstrations have been held near the Houses of Parliament. The Autopolitan police are on their highest state of alert ever; however, few people are actually concerned.

Following the UN Resolution the Renard government has pledged to bring in laws to reign in the power of militant trade unions. Unions were common place and encouraged before this resolution was passed, now the economy has collapsed, again, and income tax has rocketed to 94%.

Mr Melia, the Minister for Trade and Industry, has been quoted as saying that the road to prosperity will be long and hard, but the government will not loose site of it's duty to the people. Pundits are expecting increases in subsidies and the introduction of tarrifs to protect local industry, as well as reductions in government spending across the board.

Renard News Channel

OOC: Biotopia please be a little more patient. Even evil capitalists need sleep occasionally. And I had methodology and public administration classes today too… I’ve only been away for a day.

Vortex, I took the liberty of immediately taking your offer as accepted. It seems like a good deal for both of us, and if these people only stay for 6 years the ‘brain drain’ will be limited as well. Besides, who am I to stop my people from leaving. :)

Oh, and these news articles that are following now were released over a period of IC weeks, so not all at the same time. They are in chronological order though

Knootians migrate abroad to find work
UTHAR- The Vortex Corporation has begun a large advertising campaign in Knootoss to hire about 85.000 “migrant labourers” for their industries. Notably Hoverdyne industries, owned by large conglomerates. Most of the migrants would be directly employed in Vortex production teams, but jobs are also available for administrative personnel, operations managers, treasurers and financial controllers.

The workers will be hired for a period of six years, with a standard wage 2,1% above current Knootian average standards. Housing will be provided by the conglomerates and each worker will be granted temporary native status in Corporate territory. After the period of six years the Knootians may return home.

Minister of Economic Affairs Brinkhorst expressed joy at the agreement. While several green MP’s voiced concerns that this would bring a ‘brain drain’ to the Knootian economy Brinkhorst insisted that this would be an opportunity for Knootians to make money abroad and provide an influx of capital. He also added that with rising unemployment most higly-educated people did not have much choice. He commented: “our education system is one of the best in the free world. If anything our people are too highly educated with this a shortage of high-end jobs. While the recession has mainly hit direct production, the service industries have also been affected.

Jan Hanbrechts, 23, was one of the first migrant workers to leave for Sisgardia today after having found a job as a production assistant for Hoverdyne Industries. Before saying goodbye to his family and friends, he told KNN that he was hopeful that he would fare well in the Vortex corporation.


KNN cuts 14.500 jobs
HILVERSUM – In a bid to reform the labour structure and ‘increase the quality of the programming’ media mega corporation KNN announced that it would have to sack 14.500 jobs in a reform of unprecedented size. Most of the jobs would be in management, corporate bureaucracy and most of all translators.

Translator jobs are hit especially hard as KNN replaces them all with the
Instant movie dubbing system from Oglethorpia (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96916)

This move is just another part in a major restructuring drive of the economy that is hitting the Dutch Democratic Republic employment rates hard. However the first signs of an upturn are already on the horizon...

*Starts working on more newspaper articles he has thought out duting the day.*

Parliament majority for Definition of Labour Union Activity change (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96996) act in DDR

THE HAGUE- After polling the leaders of major parties and senior MP’s in a survey Nova found that there was a workable majority for adopting a change in the “Definition of Labor Union Activity” definition in an emergency law, and perhaps even in a direct ministerial order to avoid further problems that have arisen since the UN adopted the ‘Rights of Labour Unions’ resolution. By adopting this resolution the UN definition would be replaced by a new definition in line with the definition used by the governments of AnteNicea, Thrace-Tailteann, Daistallia and Uber Neo Zeon

By adopting this measure the Unions would effectively no longer be defined as unions. To preserve the Knootian consensus-based poldermodel the unions would be granted the status of political “Worker Representative Organisations” or WRO’s. Thusly they can preserve their seats in the the Social Economic Council and their representative function in government-employer-employee talks.

According to the new definition “The Proper area of concern for Labour Unions shall be confined only to those employer policies that directly affect the working conditions of Union members within the work place. If at any time any single, or group of, Labour Union(s) act in any manner to influence any area of society not solely and directly determined by the workplace policies of their employers they shall then be legally viewed as "Political Organizations with WRO status" and thus NO LONGER COVERED by the Provisions of the UN Resolution on Labour Unions and then subject to any and all Laws of Knootoss applicable to conduct of ‘WRO’s’.” [OOC: end adapted quote]

(OOC: quite some time later)

Judge breaks railway strike
THE HAGUE – Court today overruled an appeal from Railway ‘Unions’ and forbade a weekend strike for more wages on the national railway net. The court agreed with the lower court that the strike was illegal according to Knootian law as the strike was not called upon, or supported, by a legal labour union and because it aimed at achieving ‘political objectives’.

The judge ruled that because of the nature of the strike and the objectives of the organisation calling for it the “Federal Railway Union” was, in fact, not a ‘Union’ but a ‘WRO’ or ‘Worker Representative Organisation’.

The FRU had called for an increase in wages and more government subsidies for public transport. The event is particularly interesting as this is the first strike that has been forbidden by law since the UN resolution on Labour was adopted.

To Belem:
No major corporations going broke yet, the recession did not go that deep... yet. The ones that are going low are mostly smaller companies. You did state you were interested in Defence contractors somewhere else. Well… the main ones are already owned by foreigners of have a government stake in them. However the company that produces the Knootian Eurofighters did go down 7,4% in the last weeks. However the sales of weaponry won’t decline so soon in NS. Sadly.

To be continued… another time...

Knootians migrate abroad to find work
UTHAR- The Vortex Corporation has begun a large advertising campaign in Knootoss to hire about 85.000 “migrant labourers” for their industries. Notably Hoverdyne industries, owned by large conglomerates. Most of the migrants would be directly employed in Vortex production teams, but jobs are also available for administrative personnel, operations managers, treasurers and financial controllers.

The workers will be hired for a period of six years, with a standard wage 2,1% above current Knootian average standards. Housing will be provided by the conglomerates and each worker will be granted temporary native status in Corporate territoryWhy migrate to The Vortex Corporation? Cast off your chains and come to Free Outer Eugenia! Here we divide the minimal amount of drudgery necessary to keep society running fairly amongst all, and devote the rest of our time and energy to the ultimate fulfillment of the individual and the collective. Say goodbye to the wasteful redundancy of consumerism; bid farewell to the unnecessary uncertainty of the boom-bust cycle; and tell your bloated blob of a boss what he can do with that slave wage!

The Federated Anarchist Communes of Free Outer Eugenia: Liberty, Eauality, Soliderity and Prosperity.

Autonomy in Organization.

-Philip Xin
of the Freetown Commune Welcoming Committee

Knootian workers flowing in en masse

As predicted before the start of the current advertising campaigns, the inflow of Knootian labor into the hoverdyne conglomerates is running smooth and steady. Mainly because of very attractive primary and secundary labor agreements, combined with high unemployment in Knootoss, there is little to no resistance or lag in the hiring of Knootian employees.

The first workers are mainly deployed in those conglomerates responsible for the manufacturing of components and modules. Because these parts are also used in several other industries, such as construction, battlemech manufacturing and aerodyne industries, the output of those companies benefits a whole array of industrial branches. The second wave of Knootians will be employed in Hoverdyne manufacturing itself, mainly the construction of civilian and light military variants, to be specific.

The construction of heavier models, such as the Lacerta beam platforms and the Sagitta artillery pieces, will remain in the hands of TVC employees. A spokesperson from the Dai Sheung conglomerate, a keiretsu coalition originally hailing from Asia, but since long time a part of the Integrated Companies, confirmed this. He stated that the larger military hoverdynes require skills and delicacy that the Knootian migrants do not yet posses. Instead, TVC employees have been transferred to those jobs, and Knootians will take their old places.

Apart from the workforce deployed on the operational level, management positions are also starting to be filled by Knootian labor. Managers from all branches of TVC industries report that their Knootian collegues are quite capable of performing their new tasks. A big advantage here is that they soeak Dutch fluently. Though the 'business language' of TVC is English, almost everybody speaks Dutch in the informal sphere, when at home or among friends. The possibility to conversate in Dutch with the Knootians certainly seems to be adding to the socialization process, as well as the creation of informal ties and friendships between workers.

In short, hiring of Knootian workers, combined with high investments and upgraded production technology, has enabled the hoverdyne conglomerates to make significant expansions in their branche of industry. New plants have been opened, R&D expenses are rising, and new markets are penetrated by the day. An increase in shipping through the Hermes Trading Facility was also notable today on the stockmarkets. Because of increased hoverdyne exports to interstellar customers, transport companies are earning higher fees than ever before.

ooc: we also note tht our economy is vastly superior to that of Free Outer Eugenia. Surely, investing in them instead of us would mean significant opportunity costs.

While your economy may be frighteningly hyperactive, we certainly have the 'supirior' economy. We have a 0% poverty rate, 0% unemployment rate and the avarage 'work week' is 15 hours.

We ask the representitives of Vortex Corp to clarify what they mean by 'invest' and to whom their decleration was aimed at. We are a moneyless economy and my comrade from the Freetown Commune was not adressing the Knootian goernment nor any corperation within Knootoss, but rather the working families of that land.

-Sacco Chin
of the Collective for the Study and Advancement of the Economic Sciences at the Univeristy at Port Bakunin

I meant that, in the end, sending workers to us is much more beneficial, compared to employing them in your nation. First of all, we offer higher wages. Second, our technology level is higher than yours (probably), which means that the skills and knowledge that Knootian workers will gain in our nation is significant.

Thirdly, when hiring migrants, your 'poverty rate' and 'unemployment rate' are irrelevant. Besides, if you still need those 85000 Knootian laborers with a 0% unemployment rate, that must mean you have a lot of job vacancies. That implies low utilization of machines and capital. And in that case, a working week of 15 hours is also ridiculously low. After all, with a lot of vacant jobs, people would have to work more to get you economy running.

So the reasons why your economy should be 'superior' sound nice on an individual basis, but when considering their interrelatedness and the current situation, they indicate a very poor economy indeed.

I meant that, in the end, sending workers to us is much more beneficial, compared to employing them in your nation. First of all, we offer higher wages. Second, our technology level is higher than yours (probably), which means that the skills and knowledge that Knootian workers will gain in our nation is significant.
You misunderstand us: we are offering permenent imigration. And we do not offer slave wages. We offer a free and democratic society, a comfortable life with minimal labor and a great deal of leasure time. We also offer a free world class education in any discipline that one may fancy.

Thirdly, when hiring migrants, your 'poverty rate' and 'unemployment rate' are irrelevant. No, these are vital factors when it comes to the well being of the workers, the only true measure of the quality of an economy.Besides, if you still need those 85000 Knootian laborers with a 0% unemployment rate, that must mean you have a lot of job vacancies. That implies low utilization of machines and capital. And in that case, a working week of 15 hours is also ridiculously low. After all, with a lot of vacant jobs, people would have to work more to get you economy running. Once again you misunderstand: we have no 'job vacancies'. All of the work that needs to be done is done. We are not afflicted with the cancer of consumerism. Once all the work that needs to be done is done, we do the work that we want to do in our leasure time. 15 hours a week from each worker is what is needed to keep our society running. When new imigrants arrive, there is always work for them as the nessesary labor is shared equally amonst all. This is what we call a reasonable economy.

Permanent immigration? Knootoss does not even need that. And as for slave wages: once again I state that TVC offers wages 2,1% above the Knootian average.

15 hours a day from each worker is what is needed to keep our society running.

We only have our workers work 7,5 hours per day. Nowm if you mean 15 hours per WEEK instead, your economy still..well..does not function properly. It would still mean low utilization of capital, labor and machinery. It would mean that any country with a normal 36 working hours per week would be more than twice as productive as you.

Permanent immigration? Knootoss does not even need that. And as for slave wages: once again I state that TVC offers wages 2,1% above the Knootian average.
You truly cannot think beyond the wage system? Here, the worker recieves the COMPLETE fruit of his or her labor. We have no bosses, no masters. All industry is directed by the workers through the workers' associations. Your slave wages may be 2.1% higher than the Knootian slave wage, but it is a slave wage never the less. Your currency is not a true measure of value anyway, the worker-hour is. An hour of work of two equally compotent workers using comparable means of production will yield the same value, wherever the workers are. Here the worker may reap the full value of his or her labor. In your economic paradigm, most of the value is stolen by the bosses and managers. So if you want to speak in terms of 'wages', we have the higher one.

And we could not care less what the Knootian government wants. The Knootian people have the freedom to go where they please. We adress the exploited Knootian working families who suffer from the boom-bust cycle inherent to capitalism. And while conditions in your opressive country may not suit the free-spirited Knootians for long, ours is a land of liberty.


We only have our workers work 7,5 hours per day. Nowm if you mean 15 hours per WEEK instead, (OOC: Week. WEEK. WEEK. WEEK!)your economy still..well..does not function properly. It is your economy with it's redundency of competition and overproduction that does not function properly.

It would still mean low utilization of capital, labor and machinery. It would mean that any country with a normal 36 working hours per week would be more than twice as productive as you. We have already stated that 15 hours a week is all that is needed to keep society running. Much production occurs within the liesure time: much Artistic, scientific and academic work is not accounted for within the 15 hours.

If we were twice as productive as far as the essentials go, we would have needless overprodction. Remember, unlike you we have a reasonable economy.

-Sacco Chin
of the Collective for the Study and Advancement of the Economic Sciences at the Univeristy at Port Bakunin

ooc: convinced socialists are annoying to talk to, you know that?

Anyway, as for a lack of competition, we have more than enough of it, and saying we lack it is a very ignorant remark. Further on, I do not think you know the structure of my society. All civilians are in Kiithid, which are a lot like families/tribes/clans. The wealth of the Kiith is enjoyed by all of it's members, as is it's reputation, assets and prestige. Consider a kiith like a big family: the strenght of ties is so strong, that everything is shared within the kiith. So I do not know where you got the idea that the 'bosses' extort the workers. In our society, one advances through knowledge, and is awarded with the position that fits one's skills. And do not tell me your society has no hierarchal levels. Or do you claim that every person in your society is capable of performing complex tasks such as logistical management or inventory control.

Also, you are not equal to your fellow countrymen. Just look at your occupation. The nature of your job itself grants you more information and a wealth of data that most of your citizens will never even see!

ooc: hey TVC, if you're willing to prattle along with an anarchist why did you bail on my ooc thread?

:shock: Oh crap

Totally forgot.

And frankly: your posts are a little more complex and advanced reading than this one, and it would take me cartloads of time to argue against you. The main problem is that both capitalism and socialism work (to a certain level) on the short to medium term. And even though the long term effects might differ, nobody seems to care, since the average career does not last longer than some 40 years anyway.

ooc: convinced socialists are annoying to talk to, you know that?

Anyway, as for a lack of competition, we have more than enough of it, Indeed. That is my point. Needless competition is counter productive.
Further on, I do not think you know the structure of my society. All civilians are in Kiithid, which are a lot like families/tribes/clans. The wealth of the Kiith is enjoyed by all of it's members, as is it's reputation, assets and prestige. Consider a kiith like a big family: the strenght of ties is so strong, that everything is shared within the kiith. So I do not know where you got the idea that the 'bosses' extort the workers. In our society, one advances through knowledge, and is awarded with the position that fits one's skills. We have a similer structure, only everyone in FOE belongs to one big 'kiith.' Our system also fosters great personal and political freedoms.

But if the means of production are indeed communal, then how is it that the wage system still exists? If a clan owns and opperates the means of production and 'shares everything', then where does the 'wage' come in? A wage is payment for labor, and if everything is shared (including labor) then why is labor 'paid for'? This is quite a contradiction.

And where would Knootian migrants fit into this traditional clan structure?

do you claim that every person in your society is capable of performing complex tasks such as logistical management or inventory control. Thanks to our national preoccupation with higher education, most are. Decesions are made collectively, and where an indavidual coordinator is absolutely nessesary, the job is rotated and recieves no special privilages.


Also, you are not equal to your fellow countrymen. Just look at your occupation. The nature of your job itself grants you more information and a wealth of data that most of your citizens will never even see!

How so? I live a comfortable but modest life, and I spend at least 15 hours every week sweeping the streets and tending to my local hydrophonic farm. I spend the rest of my time teaching and learing within the University Collective. The information available to me is available to all. Not all of us though choose to study economics.

-Sacco Chin
of the Collective for the Study and Advancement of the Economic Sciences at the Univeristy at Port Bakunin

Okay I got the point: you're the economic Utopia. Well if it works for you, so be it. As for the Kiith: they do not literally own a shared amount of assets, but the Kiith does make sure that nobody lives in poverty or otherwise threatening conditions. Consider it a family in which people do have different standards of living, but help each other out as good as they can.

But I got another question for you: can foreign companies invest in your nation? And if so: how?

you're the economic Utopia. Though Free Outer Eugenia has it's problems, we have a cooperative mutual aid economy.
Can foreign companies invest in your nation? And if so: how? We have neither the need nor the structure for such arrangements. Why would we want to be enslaved and exploited? We are open to cooperative mutual aid relations with workers associations around the world and are members of the CACE autarchy.

OOC: Okay, discuss all you want in this thread. I'll start a new one for further developments.
Also, FOE, I take it now that the CACE does not IGNORE Knootoss (repeated posting in my threads by pretty much all of you... :roll: Which I still appreciate btw.) and that yours was an IC offer?

Because some Knootians might take you up on that!

EDIT: that said, I'm off to bed. When/if you answered the question regarding status positively I'll post a response in a new thread. :wink:

OOC: any offer with an IC sig is an IC offer.