NationStates Jolt Archive

The GDP calculator is wrong.

The following is all OOC

Let's start off with my nation's description page. (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=oglethorpia)

Here, it says that my population is 1.226 billion and my income tax is 43%. All fine and well, right?

Here's my gross domestic product. (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=oglethorpia)

According to this, my GDP is $42,910,000,000,000 and my national budget is $24,329,970,000,000.

Which would be fine, if I didn't look at it more closely.

When the gross domestic product is divided by the national budget, it comes out as 56.6697.

Which means that it assumes my tax is 56.669%; when in actuality, it's 43%. Common sense tells us that 57% is what the population keeps; so why is it being taken as the national budget of the government?

It has to be a mistake, or i'm missing something here; but i'm pretty sure i'm right.

If this is true, and the calculator's taking the wrong number as the income tax; then we really should start calcalating GDP on our own and not using this online calculator, despite how convinient it is.

I don't mind to be shown wrong; so please, by all means feel free to discuss the issue.

The budget isn't the GDP divided by the taxes...

I dunno, the GDP calculator I use, which isn't online, it's a spread sheet works properly.

The budget isn't the GDP divided by the taxes...

Why wouldn't it be?

The GDP is what the nation, as a whole makes.

The budget is what percentage of that the government takes.

If it isn't what I just said, what is it?

Excuse me I meant times the taxes, but I think you figured that out.

Anyway. Governments don't just make money from taxes. If they did they would mostly be broke.

I'm assuming the additional money is supposed to represent indirect taxes; like tariffs, or asset revenue.

It'd be helpful if it mentioned these things on the main page; or otherwise it appears as phantom money.

Those with 0% income tax would be doing especially well for themselves! I don't mind calculators for approximating GDP (value of all goods and services produced or rendered in the nation), but for budget? One would have to run the entire economy to accurately estimate that! In accelerated time!

Yep; it turns out interesting things like the GDP for Neo-Wu (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=neo-wu) his budget being 100%, but the budget looking something only like 50% of the nation's GDP (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=neo-wu).

Hmmm, perhaps it's best if I use my own calculations to determine budget.

Yep; it turns out interesting things like the GDP for Neo-Wu (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=neo-wu) his budget being 100%, but the budget looking something only like 50% of the nation's GDP (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=neo-wu).

Hmmm, perhaps it's best if I use my own calculations to determine budget.

Hey, are you in controle of Neo-Wu now?

Nooo...I merely used people in my region as examples.

Neo-Wu retains it's sovreignity.

o, ok, later.

Well, that's just your income tax, right? Remember there are all kinds of other taxes too, scuh as sales tax or property tax :P

Bleh, I guess we just got too far ahead of Max when people started RPing.

And also, I wrote this:

I'm assuming the additional money is supposed to represent indirect taxes; like tariffs, or asset revenue.

budget of a government is ussually 20-30% of its GDP. Income tax just means how much the people pay themselves and the corporations take up the rest of the slack.
SO if you have a 100% tax rate that means the corporations cants support the government spending and you have to squeeze every penny out of your serfs..uh i mean happy content citizens :roll:

Anyway...the calculator takes into account Civil Rights when determining GDP. That's bastard liberal thinking if I've ever seen it.

I'm assuming the additional money is supposed to represent indirect taxes; like tariffs, or asset revenue.

It'd be helpful if it mentioned these things on the main page; or otherwise it appears as phantom money.

That would be largely impossible. Consider all the possible sources of additional income:

Sales tax, tarrifs, property tax, dividend tax, estate tax, luxury tax, fuel tax, various "sin" taxes, interest paid on loans, donations (yes, it actually happens), government sales for those with national companies, various fees and surcharges, vehicle taxes, concessions from other nations, investment earnings, awards from lawsuits, penalties from law violations that carry monetary punishment), etc. etc. etc.

As you can see, NS would quickly get bogged down in micromanagment, and the National Spotlight would be far too long. I've had to consider these sources of information as my country has been at "unheard of" taxes pretty much since inception.

Also, note that "unheard of" is not the same as 0%. It is likely somewhere between 0.1% and 0.9%. Still small, but also still a source of income.

I use the GDP calculator just for reference. The Dominion is basically a Corporate Police State- everyone and everything in the country is an asset of Evil Overlord Enterprises. Citizens pay for the services they receive from EOE (which includes everything) at prices set by EOE Officials/Government Ministers. There is no income tax as such, regardless of what the write-up for the country says. The text description of the Dominion I interpret as a rough guide to the relative costs of goods and services.

When the "tax" write-up is high (currently 'moderately high' at 21%), I interpret that to mean that goods and services are more expensive than usual. This tallies nicely with the decisions I make on Issues- which are dependent on the current "International Situation" (the threads that I follow and make posts on). If things are more tense than usual, I choose military options in the budget Issues and muster the Reserves. This would mean fewer people working at producing the goods and services, making prices go up (supply and demand, you know). Once things are a bit safer, the Reserves go back to work and I begin choosing business options in the budget and things gradually get cheaper as more goods and services become available.

I hadn't noticed the discrepancy with the calculator because of this personal gaming style. Other players, who may not have the time or inclination to put a great deal of time and attention into their national budget, can still use the calculators because they are an aid to standardizing the gaming. The more people use the calculators, the easier it is for you- in your IC guise as an Intelligence Operative- to punch in what you consider the most likely numbers for a potential enemy nation and get relatively useful numbers out of it.

TEO

I use the GDP calculator just for reference. The Dominion is basically a Corporate Police State- everyone and everything in the country is an asset of Evil Overlord Enterprises. Citizens pay for the services they receive from EOE (which includes everything) at prices set by EOE Officials/Government Ministers. There is no income tax as such, regardless of what the write-up for the country says. The text description of the Dominion I interpret as a rough guide to the relative costs of goods and services.

When the "tax" write-up is high (currently 'moderately high' at 21%), I interpret that to mean that goods and services are more expensive than usual. This tallies nicely with the decisions I make on Issues- which are dependent on the current "International Situation" (the threads that I follow and make posts on). If things are more tense than usual, I choose military options in the budget Issues and muster the Reserves. This would mean fewer people working at producing the goods and services, making prices go up (supply and demand, you know). Once things are a bit safer, the Reserves go back to work and I begin choosing business options in the budget and things gradually get cheaper as more goods and services become available.

I hadn't noticed the discrepancy with the calculator because of this personal gaming style. Other players, who may not have the time or inclination to put a great deal of time and attention into their national budget, can still use the calculators because they are an aid to standardizing the gaming. The more people use the calculators, the easier it is for you- in your IC guise as an Intelligence Operative- to punch in what you consider the most likely numbers for a potential enemy nation and get relatively useful numbers out of it.

TEO

What he said! (No seriously. Same kind of government.)

While I agree that it isnt everything I'd like it to be, i admit the GDP calc is good for a standardized approximator because so many use it, but I highly recommend people do their own budgets if they can. Especially military budgets.

The GDP calculator is wrong.

<snip>.

Of course it's wrong. As Mianimas pointed out, (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96722&highlight=calc+vb) it doesn't use your tax rate at all. Just your Econ. rating, population, and Civil Rights level.

Which has damnall to do with a government's income.

The GDP calculator is wrong.

<snip>.

Of course it's wrong. As Mianimas pointed out, (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96722&highlight=calc+vb) it doesn't use your tax rate at all. Just your Econ. rating, population, and Civil Rights level.

Which has damnall to do with a government's income.

Those three have everything to do with a governments income.

The higher your economy, the more goods people produce (no matter what your economic system of choice is) and their output can be approximated to a dollar amount. The more people product the more taxes apply to them as naturally they will trade their product for other products through one method or another.

Population of course is the way to figure out the total product and thus the GDP converted to a convient number instead of 40,000,000,000 TV's, 20,000,000 luxury automobilies, etc.

Civil rights are a gray area as to why they are used. My guess is that the creator figured that the higher the civil rights are the more likely people are to purchase the varied products and big ticket items. Since totalitarian regimes have historically restricted the living locations and 'wealth level' of their citizens this makes sense to a certain extent. If you cannot move to the bigger house, why make the bigger money and why work any harder? Again, this is a guess though.

Having low civil rights does not automatically make one a communist totalitarian society that punishes hard work or discourages materialism, though. So yes, definitely a "gray area" there, if by gray we mean "has nothing to do with the economy."

Having low civil rights does not automatically make one a communist totalitarian society that punishes hard work or discourages materialism, though. So yes, definitely a "gray area" there, if by gray we mean "has nothing to do with the economy."

Indeed...

I, the original one to speak out against the calculator, applaud Santa Barbara :wink:

Having low civil rights does not automatically make one a communist totalitarian society that punishes hard work or discourages materialism, though. So yes, definitely a "gray area" there, if by gray we mean "has nothing to do with the economy."

Indeed...

I, the original one to speak out against the calculator, applaud Santa Barbara :wink:

:P Hey I was speaking out against it ever since I plugged in numbers and found that one could have a higher defense per capita with the GDP calc than one does in NS...

Having low civil rights does not automatically make one a communist totalitarian society that punishes hard work or discourages materialism, though. So yes, definitely a "gray area" there, if by gray we mean "has nothing to do with the economy."

Having low to no political rights makes a nation a dictatorship.

Having 100% taxes makes it a communist state.

So I agree, low civil rights makes for neither facism nor communism.

Having low civil rights does not automatically make one a communist totalitarian society that punishes hard work or discourages materialism, though. So yes, definitely a "gray area" there, if by gray we mean "has nothing to do with the economy."

Having low to no political rights makes a nation a dictatorship.

Having 100% taxes makes it a communist state.

So I agree, low civil rights makes for neither facism nor communism.

That was delivered with too stright of a face :? Are you agreeing, or just pointing out an obvious flaw :?:

Having low to no political rights makes a nation a dictatorship.

Having 100% taxes makes it a communist state.

So I agree, low civil rights makes for neither facism nor communism.

Hmm, well you could have an oligarchy or plutocracy with low or no political rights. I'd point to myself as an example, except it really is a dictatorship with Pratt sitting there fatly, as he tends to do.

The GDP calculator is wrong.

<snip>.

Of course it's wrong. As Mianimas pointed out, (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96722&highlight=calc+vb) it doesn't use your tax rate at all. Just your Econ. rating, population, and Civil Rights level.

Which has damnall to do with a government's income.

Those three have everything to do with a governments income.

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I intended the "damnall" to refer only to the civil rights budget modifier.
Econ and pop obviously effect your government's income.


Civil rights are a gray area as to why they are used. My guess is that the creator figured that the higher the civil rights are the more likely people are to purchase the varied products and big ticket items.
Which would improve your country's Econ. rating.

Hence, that indirect effect is already entered in, if you calculate based solely on Econ rating (or, rather, the GDPPC you get from the Econ. rating) and your country's tax rate (figured and supplied by the game software). No need to involve some primary effect based on your country's civil "rights" ranking. Particularly via some external-to-the-game program that creates a tax rate that you never sought, that nothing you've done effects.

Which is the simple reason I reject the pipian gdpcalc.

Thank you for pointing out the flay in my guess. But outright rejection of it is silly, as to a certain extent is sitting here trying to figure out the authors intent. Not that I don't intend to keep guessing. Perhaps they were simply looking for something to inject a little randomness, or perhaps they were on shrooms. The pipian calc IMO does the job of a simple standard calculator well enough for everyday use as long as you don't touch the military calculator.

Thank you for pointing out the flay in my guess. But outright rejection of it is silly, as to a certain extent is sitting here trying to figure out the authors intent.

I'm not trying to guess his or her intent, I'm pointing out the uselessness of the result. A program purporting to calculate your country's income, that pays no attention to the tax rate, is prima facia flawed.

Not that I don't intend to keep guessing. Perhaps they were simply looking for something to inject a little randomness, or perhaps they were on shrooms.

Now if I were to guess at intent, I would say not shrooms, but rather s/he ODed on dogma. ;)


The pipian calc IMO does the job of a simple standard calculator well enough for everyday use as long as you don't touch the military calculator.

I disagree. I have a hand calc, and a spreadsheet app, and either will multiply pop * GDPPC * tax rate just fine. Not to be insulting, but just how much do some people need their hands held, that they can't do their own multiplication?

As for the argument I've seen advanced, that everybody should use it, so everybody would have the same basis for their budgets---if everybody jumped off a bridge, or snorted talcum powder, that wouldn't make it smart.

If the "problem" is what chart to use for converting Econ Names to GDPPC, well hell, I'm willing to accept Mac Anu's -- so long as an agreed-on amount is found for "Fair", which fits between "Good" ($7500) and "Reasonable" ($5000). Or, if I may brag, either of the charts I've given.

But to say someone should use the pipian calculator because so many others do, is to recommend we should all become sheep. And the sheeple is TES's national animal as a joke, not as praise.

Entire States, I basically agree with you. An appeal to popularity is, of course, not a reason why people should use something but, the Mac Anu calculator has become the defacto standard for a quick and dirty estimate of a country's GDP. But if you have a better way of doing it, why not share?

Entire States, I basically agree with you. An appeal to popularity is, of course, not a reason why people should use something but, the Mac Anu calculator has become the defacto standard

De facto incorrect is still incorrect.


for a quick and dirty estimate of a country's GDP. But if you have a better way of doing it, why not share?

On the small chance this isn't a joke, ;) I'll repeat myself for the umpteenth time: go to your (generic you) nation's page, note the Econ. Rating, convert that to a dollar amount using whichever of the gazillion charts floating around you prefer. Multiply that number by your population (also on your nation's page), and multiply that by your nation's tax rate (again, on your nation's page). Voila, your government's intake. Multiply that by some reasonable number, like 10%, 5%, or less, and there's your military budget. Remember, procurement is likely no more than 20% of your military budget (and that's extremely high).

A hand calc is all that's needed. :)

Entire States, I basically agree with you. An appeal to popularity is, of course, not a reason why people should use something but, the Mac Anu calculator has become the defacto standard

De facto incorrect is still incorrect.

OOC: Indeed. Note how I did mention "appeal to popularity". That means that I was agreeing with you. I'm also not unware of the reality that has taken hold of the NS universe either.

for a quick and dirty estimate of a country's GDP. But if you have a better way of doing it, why not share?

On the small chance this isn't a joke, ;) I'll repeat myself for the umpteenth time: go to your (generic you) nation's page, note the Econ. Rating, convert that to a dollar amount using whichever of the gazillion charts floating around you prefer. Multiply that number by your population (also on your nation's page), and multiply that by your nation's tax rate (again, on your nation's page). Voila, your government's intake. Multiply that by some reasonable number, like 10%, 5%, or less, and there's your military budget. Remember, procurement is likely no more than 20% of your military budget (and that's extremely high).

A hand calc is all that's needed. :)

OOC: It's basically a line of inquiry. The "gazillion" charts floating around are also not exactly agreed now are they? Mac Anu, if I'm not mistaken, uses one in which "Frightening" = 35 000. I've seen others in which Frightening is equated with 40 - 50 000. In addition and what was already pointed out earlier, tax rate is not the only source of government revenue, of which your calculations do not take into account. Perhaps some kind of ratios (say like 50% tax and 50% tariffs or whatever) for government revenue could be factored in.

20% is not a hard and fast rule for procurement either. South Korea had procurement levels of up to 50% at one point in their history - but to be fair, I don't they maintained it for a long time. I'll see if I can dig up the link.

There is a small chance that you could drop the attitude in the hopes of a more fruitful discussion.

I have yet to see a GDP calculator that I approve of, and never a military calculator that was even close... personally, working it out by hand based on in-depth analysis is a good idea.

The only military calculator that I have ever used was my own. I took into account the major costs of operating any orginization, payroll and maintance based on my military levels and previous expednitures. After awhile I just dropped it. I have licences for most of my military and haven't been involved in a war recently to really need them.

OOC: Actually not this nation that I did that with...

for a quick and dirty estimate of a country's GDP. But if you have a better way of doing it, why not share?

On the small chance this isn't a joke, ;) I'll repeat myself for the umpteenth time: go to your (generic you) nation's page, note the Econ. Rating, convert that to a dollar amount using whichever of the gazillion charts floating around you prefer. Multiply that number by your population (also on your nation's page), and multiply that by your nation's tax rate (again, on your nation's page). Voila, your government's intake. Multiply that by some reasonable number, like 10%, 5%, or less, and there's your military budget. Remember, procurement is likely no more than 20% of your military budget (and that's extremely high).

A hand calc is all that's needed. :)

OOC: It's basically a line of inquiry. The "gazillion" charts floating around are also not exactly agreed now are they? Mac Anu, if I'm not mistaken, uses one in which "Frightening" = 35 000. I've seen others in which Frightening is equated with 40 - 50 000.


The divergence in the charts in use and/or published is, IMO, a minor matter compared to the pipian calculator's use of civil rights in direct opposition to the tax rate determined by the game. Find a chart you (generic) like and use it; promote its use, if you (generic) wish. Just base your (generic) budget on your tax rate, not some arbitrary "civil rights modifier" combined with an ad hoc fudge-factor, please.

Oh, and after thought, I believe my "stretched" chart, not the one directly from RL numbers, is more likely acceptable to most players on NS.

Frightening 43,900
All Consuming 33,700
Powerhouse 25,200
Thriving 19,000
Very Strong 12,300
Strong 9,400
Good 7,100
Fair 5,200
Reasonable 4,400
Developing 2,900
Struggling 2,100
Weak 1,500
Fragile 1,100
Basket Case 700
Imploded 400


In addition and what was already pointed out earlier, tax rate is not the only source of government revenue, of which your calculations do not take into account. Perhaps some kind of ratios (say like 50% tax and 50% tariffs or whatever) for government revenue could be factored in.

I suppose an "other taxes" rate of 50% of the total is possible. However, in the only RL example I have hard figures to hand for (the USA budget of FY 2000), such taxes made up only approx. one-thirteenth of all revenue. Further, it is my understanding that in most "First World" countires, imposts, duties, fees, etc. are used more as a political tool, not (so much) as a method of generating revenue. If someone can supply hard data re. other nations, particularly where such "other taxes" are a significant portion of revenue, or where they are even less of a portion than in the USA, I would be delighted to have such figures to work with.

As it is, if we take the USA as a standard, then you could increase revenues by around 8% to account for "other taxes". A good point, thank you for raising it. However, without some RL data, I would look askance at a claim to double revenue with such "other taxes".

As well, there's the increase (however small) in complication; with some claiming the pipian calculator should be used because it's easy to use, keeping the math simple is, IMO, a worthwhile goal. As well, an "other taxes modifier" is a potential ponit of contention, with people arguing over what rate is "right", and hurling accusations of godmoding over "too high" numbers. Simply avoiding the matter strikes me as having much more benefits than drawbacks.

There is a small chance that you could drop the attitude in the hopes of a more fruitful discussion.

What attitude? That RL data is a very useful touchstone for those who wish reasonable (aka "realistic") RP? That---to the extent that NS is a simulation of the interactions of nations---one should compare theory to the only example of interacting nations we have (i.e., the real world)? Or that the pipian calculator is inherently and irremediably flawed, and that the only course of action I can accept from myself is to oppose it and point out its flaws until it is no longer widely accepted?

Or are you referring to the line: "On the small chance this isn't a joke, ;)" -- since I've pointed out my suggestion over and over, I considered it possible you meant your line "But if you have a better way of doing it, why not share?" as a wry joke on how often I had "shared". I spoke in the same spirit of bandiage I thought you probably were speaking in. I believe now that you hadn't seen any of my earlier posts, and meant your remark seriously; further, that you didn't catch my wry spirit either. In which case, I'm sorry you mistook me as have a bad attitude.

However, if none of the above is the reason for your "drop the attitude", would you please tell me what is? Preferably by telegram, as I doubt it's a matter that belongs on the public boards.

Statistically speaking, examining RL figures, I find that nations with approximately $1000 GDP per capita or less tend to be considered "Imploded." This is a wide range - $100 GDP per cap is a very different cap when considering governmental spending issues than $1000 per cap. It's also worth noting that the listed dollar values have different effects internally - a hundred dollars' worth of paperback novels in China is a great deal more volume of books than a hundred dollars' paperbacks in the US. Similarly, dinner in Japan will cost you more than dinner in Rwanda. There is a great deal of minute detail to consider, and many countries in NationStates have (ICly speaking) economies that are set up in very unusual fashions.

In addition, it's worth considering that spending and economy affect each other; North Korea's economy, for example, suffers horribly due to excessive military spending rather than productive development...

The budget isn't the GDP divided by the taxes...

Why wouldn't it be?

The GDP is what the nation, as a whole makes.

The budget is what percentage of that the government takes.

If it isn't what I just said, what is it?
Your wrong. It is the total of everything made in your nation. But it is not the total of what YOUR nation makes.

Anyway...the calculator takes into account Civil Rights when determining GDP. That's bastard liberal thinking if I've ever seen it.
I fully agree with you on this. The GDP calculators on this site are politically biased to make look as though only liberal views work.
That is not how it works in the real world though.
The real world is a combination of everything.

I use the GDP calculator just for reference. The Dominion is basically a Corporate Police State- everyone and everything in the country is an asset of Evil Overlord Enterprises. Citizens pay for the services they receive from EOE (which includes everything) at prices set by EOE Officials/Government Ministers. There is no income tax as such, regardless of what the write-up for the country says. The text description of the Dominion I interpret as a rough guide to the relative costs of goods and services.

When the "tax" write-up is high (currently 'moderately high' at 21%), I interpret that to mean that goods and services are more expensive than usual. This tallies nicely with the decisions I make on Issues- which are dependent on the current "International Situation" (the threads that I follow and make posts on). If things are more tense than usual, I choose military options in the budget Issues and muster the Reserves. This would mean fewer people working at producing the goods and services, making prices go up (supply and demand, you know). Once things are a bit safer, the Reserves go back to work and I begin choosing business options in the budget and things gradually get cheaper as more goods and services become available.

I hadn't noticed the discrepancy with the calculator because of this personal gaming style. Other players, who may not have the time or inclination to put a great deal of time and attention into their national budget, can still use the calculators because they are an aid to standardizing the gaming. The more people use the calculators, the easier it is for you- in your IC guise as an Intelligence Operative- to punch in what you consider the most likely numbers for a potential enemy nation and get relatively useful numbers out of it.

TEO

What he said! (No seriously. Same kind of government.)

While I agree that it isnt everything I'd like it to be, i admit the GDP calc is good for a standardized approximator because so many use it, but I highly recommend people do their own budgets if they can. Especially military budgets.I only use it to determine national budget. But then I determine what percent I spend on military etc.

The GDP calculator is wrong.

<snip>.

Of course it's wrong. As Mianimas pointed out, (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96722&highlight=calc+vb) it doesn't use your tax rate at all. Just your Econ. rating, population, and Civil Rights level.

Which has damnall to do with a government's income.

Those three have everything to do with a governments income.

The higher your economy, the more goods people produce (no matter what your economic system of choice is) and their output can be approximated to a dollar amount. The more people product the more taxes apply to them as naturally they will trade their product for other products through one method or another.

Population of course is the way to figure out the total product and thus the GDP converted to a convient number instead of 40,000,000,000 TV's, 20,000,000 luxury automobilies, etc.

Civil rights are a gray area as to why they are used. My guess is that the creator figured that the higher the civil rights are the more likely people are to purchase the varied products and big ticket items. Since totalitarian regimes have historically restricted the living locations and 'wealth level' of their citizens this makes sense to a certain extent. If you cannot move to the bigger house, why make the bigger money and why work any harder? Again, this is a guess though.

On civil rights, the reality of modern dictatorships and the cost of living in such nations, blows those liberal arguments out of the water.
The other problem is you assume 100% employment. No one has that and no ever has. The lowest unemployment rate ever, was around 3.5%.
So you have to subtract 3.5 -10% of your population. But if you include people who unemployed simply because they don't want to work, then you must increase that rate to 5 to 10%.