NationStates Jolt Archive

As the title said I am now starting a rant against all the people who blanket IGNORE Tolkein based materiel.

First off, I agree that some Tolkien based players have a ‘holier than thou” attitude, buit some of us do not, Thelas for instance is a LOTR based nation, and I tend to think I am fairly good at RPing. So not all Tolkien based nations are evil, this is the same as a blanket IGNORE of space tech, some nations take advantage of the fact that they have space tech, and then some do not. Thus, it is highly unfair to look at several examples and serotype all LOTR nations because of it, this is a logical fallacy, to prove a theorem to need a logical proof, to disprove it, you need one example to the contrary.

Next, I agree that Tolkien Elves are powerful, but they have disadvantages, I will not start counting all of the reasons up, because I would be typing for weeks. Most LOTR nations only pull their Elven base out of the hat when they have a good reason, and when the other player agrees to it.

Now I respect that you may RP only with people that you like, but please, give some of us a chance.

EDIT: Changed Tolkien from the German spelling to the English spelling

Tolkien
:twisted:

I've never blanket-ignored Tolkein-based nations and never will...

I like Tolkien nations.

I know Trojan but some people here do (Looks at SS)

Well, the only problem I have with Tolkien nations is if they start to use magic or whatnot. That's it.

Now, Orcs and Uruk-hai are quite easy to kill in battle. Trolls -- use Stinger missiles or any type of rocket launcher. Melkor's Tolkien forces are quite mortal, its his GRAVSHIPS that are difficult to destroy, and that of course involves future tech roleplay, not Tolkien roleplay.

Elves on the other hand -- well, they are mortal but immortal to old ageand disease IIRC. I can live with their immortality to old age, but their immortality to sickness is pushing it. That just about limits any nation's use of chemical or biological agents, which, if RPed correctly are quite effective and do not ruin roleplays because they can be countered as opposed to n00ks. Nevertheless, I don't use WMD at all.

My two cents.

Well, elves can be killed by chem weapons, and a very select number of bio weapons (specificaly race tailored weapons).

Next, I agree that Tolkien Elves are powerful, but they have disadvantages

AHAHAHA! AHAHA! AHA AHA!
Ha...
haha...

HAHAHAHAHAHA! HAAHHAHAHAAAAAA!
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AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA HAHAHA AHAHAHA!

*ahem* Anyway, you're wrong.

I myself have no problem with elves, seeing as they are very cheerful folk.

I would fight with them any day of the week

Elves on the other hand -- well, they are mortal but immortal to old ageand disease IIRC. I can live with their immortality to old age, but their immortality to sickness is pushing it. That just about limits any nation's use of chemical or biological agents, which, if RPed correctly are quite effective and do not ruin roleplays because they can be countered as opposed to n00ks. Nevertheless, I don't use WMD at all.


Really. I imagine that the elvish reaction to WP, or Chlorine, or just about any chemical agent would be the same as the human one...

I don't Ignore anyone unless they are playing with uber races or tech

(examples: Races that can withstand Nukular blasts head on, ones that can not be killed, etc. Sun Crushers, Borg Cubes, etc.)

I have no problem with elves. heck, I'm both space tech and another race (Atlantian).

OOC: Thing is that many Tolkein-esque players make elves virtually invulnerable. Able to walk through a room filled with VX nerve gas, drink cyanide with their bread, read War and Peace inside Cheronybl Reactor #4, and bath with plague rats. Not to mention pulling a 180-degree turn in a fighter going Mach 3. I don't care if elves are supposed to be immune to enviromental stimulai. Unless such players also claim that said beings are not hurt when you tie them to two trucks and drive in opposite directions, because that's what happens when pull about 20 Gs inside an atmosphere.

Not to mention how nobody considers the inherent downside to poison immunity: medicinal immunity. Things like painkillers and medicine should have no effect. Now think about how much that would suck if you've been injured or having surgery. But does anyone with elves do this kind of stuff? Not that I've seen. :roll:

Good first post.

I agree with you there. Any race/idea can be put into an extreme of godmodding. The only similer experiance I have had is to do with vampire powers, and I try to make my characters weak. Personally I take far more pleasure in roleplaying characters that have weaknesses.

OOC: Having not actually seen any Tolkien RP, i can't comment on how they get used, but lets bring some Tolkienism here:

(1) Immunities. Old age, check. Biological implications: They have an active telomerase that restores telomeres in their genome, preventing non-disjunction errors. They are also free from age-related 'illnesses' such as alzheimers. Its probably reasonable to say that they are free from any genetic disease. (Which age-related diseases are). They have really long generation times (ie, time from birth to first child), and were explicitly created, meaning there would be few mutations, positive or negative, in the population. Thus little chance for the acquisition of deleterious alleles.

Disease (virus/bacteria): Ok, this is magic, plain and simple. There is no reasonable biological interpretation. Whatever. If you rely on viral agents, you have other problems.

Chemical agents: There is no reason to think Tolkien elves are immune to these. They never appear in LotR. Except for poisons, which it is at least insinuated that those would harm elves, even if its not explicit. Thus there is at least some reason to believe that elves are subject to chemical weapon attacks.

(2) Magic: What Tolkien magic is not - flashy, explosive, obvious. Tolkien magic is generally subtle. Weather manipulation, healing, improved abilities (speed, etc...). No fireballs. Now, this could mean that a Tolkien elf could pull 20g's. But this would be a very powerful Tolkien elf. However, if they start throwing fireballs, call them on it.

(3) Limitations: Lets look at that long generation time. Not much reproduction going on implies that you have small population size. Every casualty is a tragic loss, because your people are so rare. Why do you think the humans dominate the elves in middle-earth as of LotR in terms of numbers and land controlled? Elrond sends some small number as an honor guard for Aragorn at the end of BookIV, that is the extent of the elven involvement in the last war of the ring. Further, as an Elf's power is a function of his age and his generation (those who have seen the trees are more powerful than those who haven't, etc... Thus, the number of elves who can do things like pull 20g's are in very short supply, and they are nearly irreplaceable.

If you actually RP Tolkien elves, then they are actually more seriously disadvantaged then normal humans. Note that they lose numbers to the hosts of Morgoth and Sauron, they are not so good as to avoid being killed, and modern weapons only puts them at a more severe disadvantage because who dies is even more arbitrary.

So a Tolkien elf player should be able to field an army maybe 1/100th the size of a similarly sized nation. With medieval tech, one elf may be worth more than 100 opponents (for the ave elf). With modern tech, you're lucky if they're worth 10.

Not to mention pulling a 180-degree turn in a fighter going Mach 3. I don't care if elves are supposed to be immune to enviromental stimulai. Unless such players also claim that said beings are not hurt when you tie them to two trucks and drive in opposite directions, because that's what happens when pull about 20 Gs inside an atmosphere.


I already partially dealt with this, but i would also point out that the elf may survive 20Gs, but the plane certainly wont. And i doubt the elf would survive falling 30000ft after his plane disintegrates around him.

Geez, i should collect my thoughts more. Just some literary basis:

"You have spilled the blood of you kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to not die in Ea, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall then come to Mandos."

-The Silmarillion, the curse of Mandos, p99 in the Ballantine SC (1981) version.

The way I see it, Nationstates is set in the real world (only bigger). At least, that is the impression given off by the issues. Having Elves is contrary to Nationstates being the real world, and so spoils the illusion.
Perhaps it would be better to look at it the other way, if Nationstates were set in a Tolkien-esque universe, would the Elf-People be happy if a small minority of people insisted on using stealth bombers, guns, and other modern military paraphenalia? I suspect not, which is why ignoring Tolkien\fantasy\space tech is alright. Especially space tech because there is an issue which specifically asks if you want to begin developing space tech, and so claiming to have Star Destroyers is blatently opposed to the limitations imposed by the game.

The way I see it, Nationstates is set in the real world (only bigger). At least, that is the impression given off by the issues. Having Elves is contrary to Nationstates being the real world, and so spoils the illusion.
Perhaps it would be better to look at it the other way, if Nationstates were set in a Tolkien-esque universe, would the Elf-People be happy if a small minority of people insisted on using stealth bombers, guns, and other modern military paraphenalia? I suspect not, which is why ignoring Tolkien\fantasy\space tech is alright. Especially space tech because there is an issue which specifically asks if you want to begin developing space tech, and so claiming to have Star Destroyers is blatently opposed to the limitations imposed by the game.

set in the real world? Well, there goes a WHOLE lot of us space nations.

While it is a comman practace, it's wrong. The only resion we are ignored is because people are afraid of us.

All the magical elfy bullsh*t in the world will not save your pointy-ear archers from a 5.56x45mm NATO Ballpoint to the head. Or any modern tech weapon for that matter.

And that is why I don't ignore elves and such. Only the people who think magic makes them bulletproof.

set in the real world? Well, there goes a WHOLE lot of us space nations.

While it is a comman practace, it's wrong. The only resion we are ignored is because people are afraid of us.


If it weren't for the issue regarding the creation of a space program I would agree with you, but the game quite clearly says that the best you can achieve is the beginnings of a space program. Perhaps this could be stretched to include a space station\missions to the moon, but not starships. If you can't work within the limitations posed by the game, then expect to be ignored.

set in the real world? Well, there goes a WHOLE lot of us space nations.

While it is a comman practace, it's wrong. The only resion we are ignored is because people are afraid of us.


If it weren't for the issue regarding the creation of a space program I would agree with you, but the game quite clearly says that the best you can achieve is the beginnings of a space program. Perhaps this could be stretched to include a space station\missions to the moon, but not starships. If you can't work within the limitations posed by the game, then expect to be ignored.

If you remember correctly, that Issue was made by a nation, it was not one of the origanal issues. So, it is not the desiding factor. Besides, I was a space nation before that issue came out. It has no effect on NS role playing. Plus, just look at all the space nations. Me, Steel Butterfly, Kelnor, Elara, Sambizie, Xanthal, and one of the OLDEST nations here: Angulus

If you remember correctly, that Issue was made by a nation, it was not one of the origanal issues. So, it is not the desiding factor. Besides, I was a space nation before that issue came out. It has no effect on NS role playing. Plus, just look at all the space nations. Me, Steel Butterfly, Kelnor, Elara, Sambizie, Xanthal, and one of the OLDEST nations here: Angulus

1. It was approved by the mods, hence it counts.
2. If the rules change, you should change too.
3. If a lot of people support something that is against the rules, it doesn't make it alright to break that rule.

I already partially dealt with this, but i would also point out that the elf may survive 20Gs, but the plane certainly wont. And i doubt the elf would survive falling 30000ft after his plane disintegrates around him.
OOC: The thing is that 20 Gs, if said elf weighs 200 lbs, would suddenly weigh 4000 lbs. Unless elves can routinely walk away from being hit by a bus, that's a load of baloney. And it's an equally big load if they can walk away from it.

(2) Magic: What Tolkien magic is not - flashy, explosive, obvious. Tolkien magic is generally subtle. Weather manipulation, healing, improved abilities (speed, etc...). No fireballs. Now, this could mean that a Tolkien elf could pull 20g's. But this would be a very powerful Tolkien elf. However, if they start throwing fireballs, call them on it.
OOC: I would, but there's a rather popular religion worshipping this player and the lightning bolts that fly from their fingers as great swarms of their fighters pull 20g turns.

If you remember correctly, that Issue was made by a nation, it was not one of the origanal issues. So, it is not the desiding factor. Besides, I was a space nation before that issue came out. It has no effect on NS role playing. Plus, just look at all the space nations. Me, Steel Butterfly, Kelnor, Elara, Sambizie, Xanthal, and one of the OLDEST nations here: Angulus

1. It was approved by the mods, hence it counts.
2. If the rules change, you should change too.
3. If a lot of people support something that is against the rules, it doesn't make it alright to break that rule.

1. Only to Modern Nations. It was made by a modern nation, the majoraty of NS is Modern, hence it was accepted
2. I see no rule saying we can't build ships, or colinize planets. Your only assuming. Until I actualy SEE an announcement posted by the mods saying that we can't do it, then we still can
3. Your right, but it isn't a rule

oh, and let me remind you that ANgulus is a highly respected Nation on NS. ANd some of the mods are space tech (like Scolo)

BTW, what's the difference between chemical and biological agents? I remember that bio weapons are diseases, etc. -- but I'm not so sure of chemical agents... :cry:

BTW, what's the difference between chemical and biological agents? I remember that bio weapons are diseases, etc. -- but I'm not so sure of chemical agents... :cry:

A chem agent is a compound that is detremental to a person, but is not a germ agent. Mustard Gas for instance is made from mustard seeds, but is not a germ agent.

People can ignore whatever they want. People ignore me all the time, and I don't care. That's their discretion.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

General about tech/magic/etc...

(1) There is no tech level you 'should' be. You can choose that however you want.
(2) Just because you can freely choose your tech level doesnt mean you can RP with anyone. Many people desire a certain feel to the world their nation is in. If that doesnt involve magic, ignore the people who use magic. If that doesnt involve future tech, ignore future tech. This is not about rules or fairness, this is about establishing your nation in a world where your nation makes sense. If i were playing a medieval non-magical nation, i would no more want spaceships flying overhead than elves in the woods or tanks on my cobblestone roads. I'm actually playing a (now post) modern nation (~2020). I don't RP with people with ridiculous space tech. I'm playing a non-magical nation, all the elves and such are ignored. My nation would not make sense outside the context of a world vaguely resembling the modern one. It would be just as ridiculous to recognize nations outside of my genre as it would to allow a Star Wars character into a Forgotten Realms game in D+D, even though both can be created under the same system and operate using the same rules (d20).

So, stop complaining about being ignored because of your genre. If you want to play a genre, you sort of accept that the other genres are unlikely to want to interact with you.

BTW, what's the difference between chemical and biological agents? I remember that bio weapons are diseases, etc. -- but I'm not so sure of chemical agents... :cry:

A chem agent is a compound that is detremental to a person, but is not a germ agent. Mustard Gas for instance is made from mustard seeds, but is not a germ agent.

Ahem. Allow someone who actually uses these things, and has done research, to answer.

A biological agent is a weaponisation of a semi-natural occuring creature, for instance smallpox or ebola. They can be defended against with masks, vaccinations, etc. Most biological weapons are bacteria, not viruses. The downside of them is they can't be controlled once released.

A chemical agent is an artificial chemical that can be either liquid or gas, and generally acts faster than a biological weapon. Examples include Tabun, Soman, Sarin, and VX. Once released, they spread very quickly. Only a few minutes in the presence of Soman is enough to kill. They can be defended against with chemical gear, and that's about it.

As the title said I am now starting a rant against all the people who blanket IGNORE Tolkein based materiel.
OOC: I don't know about the others, but I try to keep this nation in a sort of 'modern day' parallel universe without elves or magic in my serious RPs.

I do have nations such as 'The United Socialist Hordes of The Communist Orks' that I use in fantasy RP.

NationStates is a FFRPG, a Free Form Role Playing Game.

As such, I accept anyone no matter who they are as long as they role play rather then try to boost failed egos through godmoding supposed "war wins."

If a Tolkien nation RPs well, I'll accept it. If not, I won't. The same goes for any space/futuretech, magic, psychic, modern, historical, or whatever kind of nation. As long as it is RP, it is also Free Form.

NationStates is a FFRPG, a Free Form Role Playing Game.

As such, I accept anyone no matter who they are as long as they role play rather then try to boost failed egos through godmoding supposed "war wins."

If a Tolkien nation RPs well, I'll accept it. If not, I won't. The same goes for any space/futuretech, magic, psychic, modern, historical, or whatever kind of nation. As long as it is RP, it is also Free Form.

That makes a great deal of sense, and I just put a thread up that I'd like you to look at.

By the way, do I rp well enough to be accepted?

NationStates is a FFRPG, a Free Form Role Playing Game.

As such, I accept anyone no matter who they are as long as they role play rather then try to boost failed egos through godmoding supposed "war wins."

If a Tolkien nation RPs well, I'll accept it. If not, I won't. The same goes for any space/futuretech, magic, psychic, modern, historical, or whatever kind of nation. As long as it is RP, it is also Free Form.

That makes a great deal of sense, and I just put a thread up that I'd like you to look at.

By the way, do I rp well enough to be accepted?

I donno, I can't remember ever RPing with you. But you might not want to ask me...I'm pretty skeptical.

-The Cardboard Avenger <---see? :D

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93840

Everyone who posted here, might be interested in this.

#bump

BTW, what's the difference between chemical and biological agents? I remember that bio weapons are diseases, etc. -- but I'm not so sure of chemical agents... :cry:

A chem agent is a compound that is detremental to a person, but is not a germ agent. Mustard Gas for instance is made from mustard seeds, but is not a germ agent.

Wrong, mustard gas is just chlorine gas. It is called 'mustard gas' because it is the colour of ground mustard seed when released.

I blanket ignore space and fantasy tech however I do have a nation to deal with fantasy. Personally I'd rather RP with DnD3e/Forgotten Realms nations then LotR nations with Satyricon Deep, but either way as long as it is well RP'd.

umm, sorry, I thought mustard gas was made from seeds, I must go kill a friend of mine... *sounds of some one being strangled are heard*

There, thats better, butback on topic, I rarly use magic in my Nation oriented RPs, unless of course some one else uses magic, at that point I go all out.

Slightly of topic, but how fast/acurate can a Tolkien elf shoot arrows?

Slightly of topic, but how fast/acurate can a Tolkien elf shoot arrows?

don't really know, I know for certain that they are very acurate, some better than the best Human marksman, but not too certain about arrow speeds. I only shoot by acuracy, never how fast I can get an arrow off of by bow.*

*an actual archer

I have no problem with Tolkien based nations, so long as they do not try to impose their Tolkien-universe rules on non-Tolkien fantasy nations.

Gotcha. I was just wondering cuz I finally saw the Twin Towers, and tehy had like, some odd thousand number of elves there, and someone told me that an elf can get off 15 acurate shots in under two seconds. So im thinking, lets say there are 1000 elves. In two seconds, 15,000 acurate arrows are fired. There were 100 thousand orks (right?), so technically, the battle shoud have lasted...if my math is right 7 (actually 6 and a half) seconds, with zero human and elf casualties...

Actually there were 10,000 Orcs, and I doubt the bit of information for 15 shots per two seconds is true.

hmm...well, Im just going on waht I was told..I meanthat one elf dude, played by Orland Bloom took out like waht, 6 orcs all a few feet away with him with arrows in teh first one.

Near as I can tell, the best way of dealing with it is by ignoring those who blatantly flount their advantage. An example; what would happen if a Star Destroyer from Star Wars showed up over 20thC USA? Would it win? Maybe. A Nationstates RP based on the same scenario could easily go both ways. Either we'd have a drawn out and interesting fight, or

Star Destroyer owner: "I bombard your whole nation from orbit, sucker!"

USA: "No way! I launch 3000 ICBMs and turn your ship to space junk"

I'd tend to ignore either combatant in the second scenario. But the first would be cool regardless of tech differences.