NationStates Jolt Archive

Credit for the authorship of this document goes to Anhierarch.

The Case Against SATO:

1.1 Introduction

The South Atlantic Treaty Organization was first formed with the intention of fighting Fascism and, ostensibly, protecting freedom. They claim also to be peaceful, that they would not use the brute strength of their organization to, and I quote from their charter, “pursue agendas of vengeance or land seizure.”

Their very history has proved that this is nothing but a false front, a benign façade behind which they plot their hidden agenda, which includes subtle warmongering and thoughtless, unilateral interventionist war.

This document is concerned with the recent events off the western coast of Aperin, the hidden agenda of the SATO concerning said events, at last showing to the world the true face of the SATO. And unlike the SATO, we do not need to dig deep into ancient history to build a case against our adversaries – recent events are proof enough.

For those unfamiliar with the recent events, I shall provide a brief overview of the most recent events. These ‘wargames’ take place at a severely strained time for relations between CACE and the WBOSATO, and we know this timing to be no coincidence. As of the present moment, the majority of CACE nations are in a state of noncommunication with the WBOSATO, as a result of an incident involving Der Angst, terrorists, and a plot to vaporize Metro SeOCC. Supposedly for the protection of Skargarden, the SATO then allied itself with the relatively unknown nation of Skargarden, which borders SeOCC. An announcement for wargames was then issued, involving approximately half a million soldiers. In the initial phases of these wargames, Ruhrian troops forcibly boarded an unarmed research trawler in international waters.

2.1 SATO was preparing for war

During the course of these wargames, the CACE was repeatedly reassured that there was no war being planned, and that the wargames were simply wargames. Much of the CACE, before and after conferring with one another, decided logically that such massive wargames and the recent events simply did not compute, and moved to take precautions – for which the SATO soundly mocked CACE, hoping to discredit us in the eyes of the world.

We now know, as a result of information received, that our suspicions were justified. According to intelligence received, the SATO possessed a detailed plan for war against the CACE, should the CACE fail to capitulate to their demands. This plan was not merely a military plan to assault the peace-loving peoples of Aperin, it was also one that discussed how such war could be turned to their advantage, plans that included the carving up of the entire continent for their usage.

2.2 SATO is guilty of more than espionage

It is not mere espionage that they have perpetrated - it is espionage not with the justifiable goal of self-defense, but rather espionage with specific intent to manipulate the CACE into giving SATO a reason to declare war upon the CACE while still maintaining its hollow righteousness.

Some time ago, certain discrepancies and anomalies began to surface that led a number of CACE nations to suspect that a mole had infiltrated the White Room at CACE HQ, such as odd turns of phrase only uttered within the White Room that were suddenly known to the SATO. As a result of this, a small number of CACE nations began an extremely discreet investigation to root out the mole – as a matter of course, computer logs indicated that one nation, Sailune, was registering curious anomalies – anomalies consistent with Sailune’s access being utilized by the DDRK

Truly, if the WBOSATO is an organization devoted to the maintenance of peace, why then do they provoke us by infiltrating our forums and halls of secure discussion? How can they claim to champion peace when they violate our laws, and use this intelligence received to push us nearer to war?

This is a question that must be addressed.

2.3 SATO has violated international law

As mentioned earlier, in the early phases of these wargames, a civilian research trawler was in international waters near the site of the wargames, conducting research on the mating of certain aquatic mollusks. A useful coincidence, and the captain of the ship was informed of and consented to the plan to smoke out the mole in the most certain terms.

Peaceful civilians with no implements of war whatsoever, with even the VA members assigned to the ship for security purposes completely unarmed, indeed selected for the love of marijuana.

As a result of their grossly provocative espionage, Ruhrian forces intercepted the vessel in international waters, weapon-laden helicopters circling the harmless vessel with heavy machine guns trained firmly on the trawler. Indeed, when the vessel was boarded the Ruhrian officer in charge issued an order stating in no uncertain terms that anybody seen using their equipment would be ‘persuaded’ by force.

Clearly, they are in serious breach of international law. Also, if Ruhr chooses to continue on its course and claim the trawler, they shall have broken yet more international laws. Had the Ruhrians approached the trawler in a peaceable manner without pointing railguns at the biologists, much needless trouble would have been avoided for both sides.

It is of course worth mentioning that the SATO did not even make an attempt to verify this intelligence acquired, failing to acknowledge the merest possibility that their intelligence may be incorrect.

2.4 SATO: Hypocritical and untrustworthy.

Many years ago SATO was formed, an alliance and organization whose creation was catalyzed on a particular event – the aggression of Iesus Christi and the Reich. In opposition to this, the SATO was formed specifically to combat the spread of their fascist ideology and protect themselves and others from Reich aggression. Thus was their origin.

How, then, can the organization created to oppose the Reich possibly justify a plan that involves calling the Reich for assistance in destroying the CACE, that proposes carving up our continent between the SATO and the Reich? Surely, this is the ultimate hypocrisy – indeed, they speak of honor while speaking also of stabbing their erstwhile allies in the back, they speak of honor while calling for an immoral war.

In doing this the SATO must recognize that they have invalidated their own existence, that their organization is no more than a fancily named posse mouthing pretty words.

2.5 SATO: The Aggressor

They have come to our continent plotting war, flexing their military muscles in an attempt to intimidate us, to cow us into submitting. Yet clearly they have not used the most important muscle of all, the one inside the skull. How atrophied it must be, desiccated and withered. They were prepared to ask the Reich to assist them, invalidating the very existence of SATO, and subsequently stab the Reich in the back.

The very operational parameters in their attempt to deal with the trawler speaks loudly of their vain attempts to prove CACE as the aggressor and justify their imperialistic ambitions while holding haloes above their heads, speaking of goodness and light. If they were so concerned about maintaining peace, the divers would have been taken into custody before they left the ship. No, they waited, in false hopes of catching them red handed.

For SATO to speak of peace is deeply hypocritical, considering their history of action – but one does not need to delve into that to prove their lies. Ostensibly, the alliance with Skargarden and the stationing of military bases in Skargarden was mean to maintain the peace and protect Skargarden. Yet they have not investigated the peaceful option, as behooves an organization that values peace. Rather, it was up to the CACE, who have made great progress in brokering a treaty between Svea Riga and Skargarden, that would protect their interests without ever loading a gun.

Again this lack of respect for peaceful process raised its head in Ruhr’s handling of the trawler incident. A peaceful organization does not immediately resort to the biggest guns and the least words. A peaceful organization would have conducted the matter in a far more dignified and respectable manner.

Lest anyone be in any doubt as to the truth, we present this evidence of SATO's duplicity. Let it speak for itself.

http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/WBO%20pic.jpg

http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/WBO%20pic%202.jpg

http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/wbo%20pic%203.jpg

http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/wbo%20pic%204.jpg

http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/wbo%20pic%205.jpg

2.6 SATO: Basic Lesson in Reality

SATO and the WBO are not the same organization.

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to the WBO

Load the images and look at the information. This is clearly a SATO action discussed on the WBO boards, by those who are members of both organisations.

In further news, and for the benefit of those who suggest that our counterespionage operatin was 'made up', a report on the investigation has been opened and made available for public inspection.

CACE Counterespionage Project Report (http://s2.invisionfree.com/OnlyThroughOpenDoors/index.php?showtopic=3&st=0)

I would.

If the site they referenced actually existed.

Furthermore, you offer only .jpg's, I noticed. Easily doctored.

However, the fact still remains that CACE has this unhealthy assumption that the WBO and SATO are the same organization. They are not. Finding nations who are members of both might discuss on differing boards. Do you have any evidence of nations who are only in one or the other, discussion the actions of the organization they are not a member of?

I didn't think so.

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to the WBO

I would.

If the site they referenced actually existed.

Furthermore, you offer only .jpg's, I noticed. Easily doctored.


I assure you, the site exists, and the images are not doctored. Frankly, we have more than enough to prove this already. This information is only icing on the cake.

However, the fact still remains that CACE has this unhealthy assumption that the WBO and SATO are the same organization. They are not. Finding nations who are members of both might discuss on differing boards. Do you have any evidence of nations who are only in one or the other, discussion the actions of the organization they are not a member of?

I didn't think so.

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to the WBO

As the majority of WBO and SATO proceedings are closed and we do not engage in this form of espionage, of course we don't. The fact remains that the majority of WBO nations are also in SATO and vice versa. That those organisations should share common interests should come as no surprise. If the CACE has, as you say, an 'unhealthy assumption' that the the WBO and SATO are the same organisation-- which we do not; we only note the commonality of their membership-- it is because in fact the distinction in action is not entirely clear.

-Kham Khitai, Xikuangese Liaison to CACE

I would.

If the site they referenced actually existed.

Furthermore, you offer only .jpg's, I noticed. Easily doctored.

However, the fact still remains that CACE has this unhealthy assumption that the WBO and SATO are the same organization. They are not. Finding nations who are members of both might discuss on differing boards. Do you have any evidence of nations who are only in one or the other, discussion the actions of the organization they are not a member of?

I didn't think so.

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to the WBO

So you deny any such plan took place?

I assume you are either being played for a fool or were part of the plan.

The fact remains that a number of SATO and WBO members planned to stage an attack on CACE. They planned to enlist the aid of The Reich, in the hope of weakening The Reich and making them vulnerable to further agression. The whole attack was being done on the pretext of SATO wargames, so whatever quibbles we might have over the validity of viewing the WBO and SATO as the one organization, the fact remains that SATO intended to attack the CACE and invade Aperin.


Celdonian Foreign Minister.

*this is a tag*

Looks to me like they were planning armed conflict as a final option if diplomacy failed... which is, honestly, what everyone does. As per Clausewitz, war is the continuation of politics by other means.

I mean... honestly. You can't say that you're surprised by any sense... and, then again, what was this about that whole barge incident being a ploy to expose spying... while you yourself were spying back?

We don't have any problem with you bickering back and forth in your little cold war, but... geez. Your Commie hypocracy is really starting to get annoying. At least the capitalists admit that they're spying and don't act all surprised when others spy back on them.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/scolopendra/janus_garbo.gifAdvisor Janus Garbo
Intelligence Section
Federated Segments of Scolopendra

We don't have any problem with you bickering back and forth in your little cold war, but... geez. Your Commie hypocracy is really starting to get annoying. At least the capitalists admit that they're spying and don't act all surprised when others spy back on them.

For the record, these logs were passed to us by an anonymous informant from within the WBO. We do not nor do we intend to discover the identity of this informant; we assume the are representatives of a nation who were appalled by the plans concocted by the WBO hegemony but with the pragmatic understanding that to voice dissent would doom them. Therefore, to prevent the execution of these plans, the appropriate evidence was passed to the CACE.

There is no nor has there even been a CACE spy in any WBO or SATO facility.

As for the ridiculous argument that they were preparing for war in case diplomacy failed, please direct us to the diplomatic efford applied by the WBO/SATO. Rather than approaching our trawler with peaceful intentions they moved with guns raised. Moreover, please explain the numerous inferences to the wargames as 'games,' the references to alternate plans and, of course, the intention to betray the Reich. It seems your intelligence agency is lacking in the former attribute, and is keeping itself selectively ignorant to certain facts.

And as for the WBO/SATO's admission they were spying, it has been a very hectic move back to SeOCC, perhaps you could provide a link to such information.

Tina Luten
Minister of Foreign Affairs
SeOCC

I shall assume that is your offical line, because I can't believe that even you believe it.

And for the record, we haven't been in any of the SATO/WBO forums.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Let's clarify things a bit:

SATO approached Skargarden, a relatively unk nown nation with a history of trouble with neighboring Svea Riga, offering partnership and a wargames exercise. This was a ploy to get a large military presence into the Aperinian waters under pretense of legality, as it has now been revealed that they were planning an invasion all the time. They wereen't planning to invade if diplomacy failed: they were planning to invade.

Item 2: we weren't spying. As I said before, we do not engage in this kind of espionage. We weren't at all surprised that they were spying on us: we always assumed they'd try, and presumed they'd be moderately successful. We have known for a long time that there was a spy, but only recently have we been preented with solid evidence (ooc: solid IC evidence; we have ooc evidence as well). We've caught the spy now. Spies get caught. It happens.

Obviously my comment was directed at Scolo and not Seocc :oops:

Mine too...

Scolopendra> Now, of course, these 'wargames' in extremely close proximity to the CACE is NOT a diplomatical venture, which should be pretty obvious to anyone, whatever the real intentions behind the games would be. However, the SATO has ALWAYS stated that they have NO intention whatsoever to conduct an attack against the CACE, and has deemed any implications of them doing so as lunatic paranoia.

Now, however, we know that their true feelings about it is the countrary; they'd be glad to start a war against us, and even more glad to ally with our enemies to crush us, then proceeding to crush them, too! Now, this is not very diplomatic, from our point of view.

Rather than approaching our trawler with peaceful intentions they moved with guns raised.
I should ask: who in hell acts all peaceful towards a boat their intelligence tells them is packed full of terrorists with a nuclear bomb? I'd say Ruhr took some pretty incredible restraint. Most nations would have simply fired a cruise missile at it.

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

*tag* No IC comment at this time

Ah, Lord Torelio, but this is of course to deviate from the subject. Please, tell us more about the 'peaceful nature' of the SATO, and these somewhat... inconsistent opinions and statements that we have seen?

Ah, Lord Torelio, but this is of course to deviate from the subject. Please, tell us more about the 'peaceful nature' of the SATO, and these somewhat... inconsistent opinions and statements that we have seen?

You`re one to talk (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90723&start=0)

(Aside from that, i though you did sever ties, so how comes you received Lord Turelios message? :P

Looks to me like they were planning armed conflict as a final option if diplomacy failed... which is, honestly, what everyone does. As per Clausewitz, war is the continuation of politics by other means.

I mean... honestly. You can't say that you're surprised by any sense... and, then again, what was this about that whole barge incident being a ploy to expose spying... while you yourself were spying back?

We don't have any problem with you bickering back and forth in your little cold war, but... geez. Your Commie hypocracy is really starting to get annoying. At least the capitalists admit that they're spying and don't act all surprised when others spy back on them.

OOC: Amen to that.

I should ask: who in hell acts all peaceful towards a boat their intelligence tells them is packed full of terrorists with a nuclear bomb? I'd say Ruhr took some pretty incredible restraint. Most nations would have simply fired a cruise missile at it.

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

OOC: http://www.digikitten.com/playhousev2/files/Mishgan/SiriFoxBanner.gif

-tag-

It's called verifying intelligence, Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin. Most nations with a competent intelligence agency have the sense to do that.

And we reiterate the call of our comrades from Free Socialism regarding the nature of SATO.

And to address the representative from Tarasovka, I would like to make the observation that there is a clear, defined line between information recieved and the active undertaking of espionage.

~Proxy Iola Tresk

Synod for Intelligence

Ah, Lord Torelio, but this is of course to deviate from the subject. Please, tell us more about the 'peaceful nature' of the SATO, and these somewhat... inconsistent opinions and statements that we have seen?

You`re one to talk (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90723&start=0)

(Aside from that, i though you did sever ties, so how comes you received Lord Turelios message? :P

What do you mean with the link?

And, ah, concerning M, you're right. Disregard last post. Posting in these forums confuse me :)

<MARK Forgive this but I have certain, troubling relations with some SATO members and I think this deserves to be read further>

Official statement regarding relations with Skargarden

"We're working on it"






#tag#

Again, the trawler operation and the information we provided the spy about it, was of course created in order to make us ABSOLUTELY sure that we did not accuse someone innocent for espionage and high treachery; therefore, we provided information that would generate a quick response and exact references to the information provided - i.e. the nuke, geiger meaters on the trawler, talk of non-existant 'frogmen', and the like. In this, our operation was fully succesful.

And, even though we of course regard the SATO with exterme caution and suspicion, we were confident that they would not respond with any kind of pre-emptive strike, as we believed that that would be even below their level of judgement, something that has also been a correct analysis.

Again, the trawler operation and the information we provided the spy about it, was of course created in order to make us ABSOLUTELY sure that we did not accuse someone innocent for espionage and high treachery; therefore, we provided information that would generate a quick response and exact references to the information provided - i.e. the nuke, geiger meaters on the trawler, talk of non-existant 'frogmen', and the like. In this, our operation was fully succesful.

And, even though we of course regard the SATO with exterme caution and suspicion, we were confident that they would not respond with any kind of pre-emptive strike, as we believed that that would be even below their level of judgement, something that has also been a correct analysis.
So let me get this straight:

You're 'confident' we wouldn't pre-emptively strike you when we think you're trying to nuke us, but you're 'certain' a SATO invasion of SeOCC is 'imminent' - certain enough for SeOCC's government to literally run for the hills - when we don't?

Am I the only person who finds that somewhat... backwards?

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

On a related note, citizens of the USFS are of the thought that 'nuclear warfare' and 'invasion' are two disparate concepts. However, of course, use of language might vary, especially by those of other cultures or 'species'.

I must agree with Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin the arguments presented by the CACE are falsifications, lies, and blatant untruths about the South Atlantic Treaty Organization. We find that this situation seems to be an excuse by the CACE to draw the South Atlantic Treaty Organization’s name through the mud.

We ask the CACE to stop this attempt at warmongering before this erupts into a full scale war that will destroy both alliances.

I will address both alliances about why not to go to war.

SATO, if you go to war and win, what then, your forces will be damaged, your economies will be in shambles, and you will leave a power vacuum. Much like the power vacuum that spawned the GDODAD. If another GDODAD forms, what then, small states already weakened, like Knootoss, will be easy pickings for a new stronger Dominion. With out a counter, both The Reich, SAVIOR, and The Impirium will reign with out limits.

For CACE, if you win, what then, as I said, another Dominion might form, The Reich, that seems to also be in on this plan, might become even more powerful. Capitalist nations will have no counter, they will invade the smaller Socialist states, do you want that to happen.

No matter who wins, both sides will lose.

Again, the trawler operation and the information we provided the spy about it, was of course created in order to make us ABSOLUTELY sure that we did not accuse someone innocent for espionage and high treachery; therefore, we provided information that would generate a quick response and exact references to the information provided - i.e. the nuke, geiger meaters on the trawler, talk of non-existant 'frogmen', and the like. In this, our operation was fully succesful.

And, even though we of course regard the SATO with exterme caution and suspicion, we were confident that they would not respond with any kind of pre-emptive strike, as we believed that that would be even below their level of judgement, something that has also been a correct analysis.
So let me get this straight:

You're 'confident' we wouldn't pre-emptively strike you when we think you're trying to nuke us, but you're 'certain' a SATO invasion of SeOCC is 'imminent' - certain enough for SeOCC's government to literally run for the hills - when we don't?

Am I the only person who finds that somewhat... backwards?

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

You have to realise that we KNEW that it was the intent of at least some SATO members, if not all, to use the wargames as a precursor to invasion. Yes we were playing for high stakes.

We did not believe you would launch a preemptive strike, because even for nations planning an invasion it would be even more risky for them to do so without first having verified their intelligence. This gambit proved to be correct.

Can we also clarfiy the matter of the spying issue as well. Of course we are annoyed that you have been spying on us, but such things happen. What is at issue here is that we have evidence that SATO forces intended to attack the CACE. That plan has been exposed.

No doubt you will continue to deny it, but we, and you know the truth.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

For CACE, if you win, what then, as I said, another Dominion might form, The Reich, that seems to also be in on this plan, might become even more powerful. Capitalist nations will have no counter, they will invade the smaller Socialist states, do you want that to happen.


Win? Do you honestly think we want to go to war? What we want is for SATO to remove it's forces from Aperin and stop attempting to bully us. What we want is for SATO members to stop plotting behind our back and developing invasion plans. what we want is peace, and if it means that SATO stick to their part of the world and we stick to ours then we will be more than happy to comply.

We do not now, tomorrow or the next day want war. We want to be left in peace by the warmongerors of SATO to govern our nations.

And Thelas. One final thing...has your SATO membership been approved yet or are they still giving you the cold shoulder? Ah well, as you said yourself, persistence sometimes pays off.


Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Again, the trawler operation and the information we provided the spy about it, was of course created in order to make us ABSOLUTELY sure that we did not accuse someone innocent for espionage and high treachery; therefore, we provided information that would generate a quick response and exact references to the information provided - i.e. the nuke, geiger meaters on the trawler, talk of non-existant 'frogmen', and the like. In this, our operation was fully succesful.

And, even though we of course regard the SATO with exterme caution and suspicion, we were confident that they would not respond with any kind of pre-emptive strike, as we believed that that would be even below their level of judgement, something that has also been a correct analysis.
So let me get this straight:

You're 'confident' we wouldn't pre-emptively strike you when we think you're trying to nuke us, but you're 'certain' a SATO invasion of SeOCC is 'imminent' - certain enough for SeOCC's government to literally run for the hills - when we don't?

Am I the only person who finds that somewhat... backwards?

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

You have to realise that we KNEW that it was the intent of at least some SATO members, if not all, to use the wargames as a precursor to invasion. Yes we were playing for high stakes.

We did not believe you would launch a preemptive strike, because even for nations planning an invasion it would be even more risky for them to do so without first having verified their intelligence. This gambit proved to be correct.

Can we also clarfiy the matter of the spying issue as well. Of course we are annoyed that you have been spying on us, but such things happen. What is at issue here is that we have evidence that SATO forces intended to attack the CACE. That plan has been exposed.

No doubt you will continue to deny it, but we, and you know the truth.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.
Ahh, very good, very good. You play the diplomat - answering the question without answering the question.

All right, I'll play your game.

Let's just play devil's advocate here, and say, for the sake of argument, that SATO was not only willing to attack the CACE but actually planning to do so - instead of, say, one member pushing for an attack on CACE with pretty much everyone else against the idea without a hugely good reason, but that's another argument. Let's say you're right.

So, why then, would we have not attacked you when we thought there was a nuke on the boat? Explain to me why an alliance planning to attack another alliance would suddenly step back and grow a sense of reason when nuclear-armed Volunteer Army terrorists enter the picture. Surely, were we planning to attack anyway, the allegations of a nuclear plot would simply provide the casus belli that an attack would require to be legitimate, would it not?

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

Agreed fully with Celdonia: the people of the United States of Free Socialism have enjoyed peace ever since the revolution soon a century ago, and we wish to keep this state of peace. We have no intentions to go to war with SATO; alas, it is them, and not we - regardless of their stated reasosns - who have stationed a large amount of troops on our doorstep.

This is, of course, a big reason to why we have intensified our diplomatic and intelligence efforts in order to avert this war by helping create a non-agression pact between Svea Riga and Skargarden, as well as trying to thwart their obvious plans for invasion by exposing them to the international community.

We agree with Thelas: no good will come from such a war.

ooc: I'm putting this here for reference, and of course not directly adressing Menelmacar on this.


So, why then, would we have not attacked you when we thought there was a nuke on the boat? Explain to me why an alliance planning to attack another alliance would suddenly step back and grow a sense of reason when nuclear-armed Volunteer Army terrorists enter the picture. Surely, were we planning to attack anyway, the allegations of a nuclear plot would simply provide the casus belli that an attack would require to be legitimate, would it not?

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

Now, as we knew that the SATO sought for an invasion of us, we knew that they'd be desperate for a good reason for them to publicly state, we of course engineered the plan so that they would BELIEVE that by seizing the trawler and showing it to the world, they'd have a great excuse for attacking us.

As international relations and credibility is intensely important in these days of global relations, we knew that they would take the bait in order to try to forge a war against us - and, as everyone can see, we were correct.

="Celdonia"Win? Do you honestly think we want to go to war? What we want is for SATO to remove it's forces from Aperin and stop attempting to bully us. What we want is for SATO members to stop plotting behind our back and developing invasion plans. what we want is peace, and if it means that SATO stick to their part of the world and we stick to ours then we will be more than happy to comply.


1. We were allowed to place our forces where they are now. Internal matters of Skargarden, you have nothing to do with it.

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago. It was rejected, reason: 'CACE wouldn`t be able to act as aggressively as before. Spreading socialism in the world of capitalism, as well as aggressive actions (manipulation of currency`s, crushing of economies) against the WBO would be impossible.'

(See Siris thread for further information)

That is not the behaviour one sees from 'peaceful nations' that only demand 'coexistance'.

It´s the policy of empires, a policy of socialistic imperialism.

It`s your policy.

Therefore, we reject the accusions, and we are shocked to see that CASCE obviously believes it`s own lies.

Well, what else to expect from a 'anticapitalist' organisation with members that allow 'firing workers on the spot' (SeOCC), try to reintroduce a private sector (Cirdanistan) and other stuff.

'Coalition of state capitalism economies' would be the better term for your coalition.

~ Mr. Morden

I want to begin this by saying: sigh.

Sigh for having to repeat myself, sigh for having to state what should be obvious but is clearly being selectively ignored, sigh for having to work when there's a party outside. I'll try, for everyone's good, to be brief.

What I'm seeing here is a lot of double standards. Disinformation is a recognized intelligence/counter-intelligence tactic. Manipulation of markets is done by capitalists every day. Amnesty is often given to criminals in return for government service, such as in the French Foreign Legion, though I could be mistaken. Not much for French history.

At any rate, it seems that what is being objected to is not that disinformation, currency manipulation or amnesty is being undertaken, but that it's the CACE undertaking them. I also think that the WBO is sore because we thought of this first, and started feeding their spy bogus information.

Really, most capitalist nations house hundreds of people that manipulate markets, their called money managers. Guys like George Soros, who has admitted his MO was to build up a currency by buying it up, then sell when he thought it had peaked; Mr. Soros knew from experience what happened to currencies when he pulled out and simply did not care. His responsibility was to make money for the people who hired him, not to help people. This is the main argument behind is thesis that global capitalism is creating a crisis it cannot survive, but that is beyond the point.

The point is that individuals crash national economies, or try to in the name of profit, daily. Menelmacar has no problem when a company in the WBO snaps up a market and plunges the foreign nation into recession, but they object when it's being done to them.

I could go on but I won't. The fact is that I'm willing to admit, and did during our initial statement regarding these accusations, that much of what is said was, and I emphasize was, true. The currency polices were undertaken by a totally differant administration years and years ago, and SeOCC no longer attempts such operations. To point out what we used to do should illuminate that we have changed, and now seek to aid economies through our Economic Treaty rather than harm them.

These facts are conveniently ignored. In fact the WBO has not revised its image of SeOCC in a decade, though our government has changed immensely.

As for the, and I'll be frank here, crap regarding the ACEPB and the ACPB, I'm sure their reps will be up tomorrow with something to say.

Until then, vamos con vacos mi amigos.

Ibin Khalid
Special Officer, Ministry of Politics
SeOCC (home at last!)

Ah, the interpretation of the term 'capitalism' is rather strange sometimes. Anti-capitalism does of course not equal socialism, it is only to be opposed to capitalism and being a non-capitalist. Within these limits, firing workers may of course be possible, and no nation in the Coalition do have a private sector.

Furthermore, the Coalition has never engaged in warfare, nor has it stationed military forces on the borders to it's enemies with the intention to try to provoke a war, something that the SATO provedly done.

Ahh, very good, very good. You play the diplomat - answering the question without answering the question.

All right, I'll play your game.

Let's just play devil's advocate here, and say, for the sake of argument, that SATO was not only willing to attack the CACE but actually planning to do so - instead of, say, one member pushing for an attack on CACE with pretty much everyone else against the idea without a hugely good reason, but that's another argument. Let's say you're right.

So, why then, would we have not attacked you when we thought there was a nuke on the boat? Explain to me why an alliance planning to attack another alliance would suddenly step back and grow a sense of reason when nuclear-armed Volunteer Army terrorists enter the picture. Surely, were we planning to attack anyway, the allegations of a nuclear plot would simply provide the casus belli that an attack would require to be legitimate, would it not?

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

Very well, I shall indulge you.

Even though you planned to attack us, you did not plan to execute a nuclear strike against us. For one, why bother moving that much hardware in if you planned to nuke us, and for another, preemptive nuclear strikes don't tend to go down well with the international community. Especially when at that point we knew you had no evidence, i.e. you thought there was a nuke, but you didn't actually have it did you, and you would need that evidence to justify nuclear retaliation. "Alegations of a plot" are not enough for you and , despite what reservations about your government I may have, I do not believe you wish to portray yourselves as psychopaths.

If your intelligence had been correct, once verified I am in no doubt you would have launched an immediate attack. Let's face it, Diablo_NL still wants to invade Seocc.

Yes, we took a calculated risk. And it worked.

I must say however, that you talk about nuclear weapons as though there is something magical about them...a word that must not be uttered. Yet none of you gave a damn when Seocc was threatened by nuclear weapons and we asked you for help. So please, less of the rightious indignation if you don't mind.

I will say one thing though. If there are SATO members still genuinely saying "we had no plans to attack you" then I think you'd better damned well start finding out what some of your members are organizing in your name.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Ah, the interpretation of the term 'capitalism' is rather strange sometimes. Anti-capitalism does of course not equal socialism, it is only to be opposed to capitalism and being a non-capitalist. Within these limits, firing workers may of course be possible, and no nation in the Coalition do have a private sector.

Furthermore, the Coalition has never engaged in warfare, nor has it stationed military forces on the borders to it's enemies with the intention to try to provoke a war, something that the SATO provedly done.

Not the coalition.

What about it`s members?

[OOC2: Moved the IC part of the post here. :roll: ]

IC:

Official Statement of the High Council of Duchy.

The Grand Duchy is amazed by the lack of diplomatic knowledge demonstrated by the CACE nations in their report.

Yes, SATO/Allied nations did not exclude a slight possibility of an armed conflict if the CACE nations reacted aggressively against the SATO/Allied forces present on the ground, this 'aggressive reaction' involving casualties among said forces.
But we reiterate that it was only a possibility all involved nations tried to avoid by diplomatic means.
It is standard rule that war comes after diplomacy, which is the case of SATO/Allied nations and not before diplomacy, which is the case of CACE nations.

We are appalled by the hypocritical behavior of the CACE nations in their refusal to honor the Sacred Will of the people of Skargarden to freedom and better living.

SATO approached Skargarden, a relatively unk nown nation with a history of trouble with neighboring Svea Riga, offering partnership and a wargames exercise. This was a ploy to get a large military presence into the Aperinian waters under pretense of legality, as it has now been revealed that they were planning an invasion all the time. They wereen't planning to invade if diplomacy failed: they were planning to invade.

Do the SATO nations have to sit calmly and watch as a small nation gets bullied around by larger neighbors, the basic freedoms of its people being baffled by CACE power-hungry policy?
Do the SATO nations have to sit calmly while the CACE nations keep the fate of the people of Skargarden unknown to the world? After all, Xikuang has stated that Skargarden is an unknown nation. Who is responsible for this lack of knowledge?
The signature of a pact between Knootoss and Skargarden and entering of SATO forces into war games was necessary to make the world know about the plight of the people of Skargarden!
We have all been witnesses of the totally sincere, unprepared and voluntary warm welcome delivered to SATO forces by the people of Skargarden.
[OOC: I take that quoted thing as IC material and respond with IC material ;) ]


We are amazed by the hypocritical behavior of CACE nations in their foolish and irresponsible 'misinformation campaign', involving a clear and direct threat of a nuclear attack. We thus deem that the actions undertaken by the Ruhrian Navy to stop any potential threat were justified and applaud their quick response and efficiency.
Might we remind that such a campaign could have very well triggered preventive strikes against CACE as response to direct threat, which the SATO/Allies preferred to avoid?
In place of following the example of CACE nations, the SATO/Allied nations chose to investigate the threats before deciding any aggressive response.
We also state that the boarding of the trawler is directly the fault of the irresponsible policy of CACE's nations.

And to add to that, the CACE members are already three times hypocritical, since they critic SATO nations for spying and claim that the CACE do not spy and then come up with some evidence themselves, which does suggest spying.

The Grand Duchy, which had a great deal of differences with SATO nations in the past, stands together with its 'objective SATO allies' in this matter and pledges full support to them in this case.

[OOC: Never thought it would ever come to my IC defending of SATO actions :? ]

The trawler is a mere distraction. We have presented evidence that SATO planned to invade us, and a whole host of nations are now standing up to say that that's fine. The enemies of peace are revealing themselves one by one, and the rest of the world can be thankful for this expose.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

First, I would like to issue an apology for the tone of my last communique. It seems that Anesca didn't like me accessing sites linking to terrorist organizations. I had to explain to her the situation, and she allowed me to pull up the information. I should have said "sites that I cannot resolve", as opposed to "that do not exist".

At any rate, I don't see how I can really add much to this discussion. As the Hack is not a member of SATO, we are really not terribly qualified to discuss SATO wargames.

However, as a concerned citizen, I have to say that once again, this appears to be a case of CACE's extreme paranoia. Again, if SATO had wanted to invade SeOCC (honestly, what a waste of time. No real land, brainwashed citizenry, horrid economy... I'd rather conquer a high school) they would have sunk the Hell out of that trawler.

Also faking nuclear war is hardly an appropriate method for rooting out a suspected spy.

Oh, and, what about all the other points brought up in Ladt Sirithil's address? You seem to just be focusing on one point, while ignoring the totality of the arguement. Honestly. Where did you people learn to debate?

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to the WBO

OOC - In other words, I thought those were bum links. Turns out my i-net connetion was in the process of going down like a cheap whore. Of course, I like the IC reason better, heh...

The contents of the post by Tarasovka have already been answered to; in our reply to Scolopendra, we explain that this is not a diplomatic SATO endeavour, and the information revelaed from the WBO/SATO boards explicitly shows that the talk of 'seeing war as the last resort' or other general talk of the 'peacefulness' of SATO is very far from the truth.

There are no CACE spies, the information comes from anonymous informants who have apparently been apalled by the behaviour of some prominent SATO members.

Finally, the trawler incident, the planning, motives and reasons around it have been made extremely clear:

Again, the trawler operation and the information we provided the spy about it, was of course created in order to make us ABSOLUTELY sure that we did not accuse someone innocent for espionage and high treachery; therefore, we provided information that would generate a quick response and exact references to the information provided - i.e. the nuke, geiger meaters on the trawler, talk of non-existant 'frogmen', and the like. In this, our operation was fully succesful.

And, even though we of course regard the SATO with exterme caution and suspicion, we were confident that they would not respond with any kind of pre-emptive strike, as we believed that that would be even below their level of judgement, something that has also been a correct analysis.


Concerning the plight of Skargarden, WE have forged a treaty between them and Svea Riga.


So, perhaps Tarasovka should provide something new instead of repeating the same old lithanias.

The trawler is a mere distraction. We have presented evidence that SATO planned to invade us, and a whole host of nations are now standing up to say that that's fine. The enemies of peace are revealing themselves one by one, and the rest of the world can be thankful for this expose.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Oh get a clue.

SATO suspected that that trawler was being used to deploy NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Honestly. What in the name of Tsathoggua did you expect them to do? Ignore it and say, "Oh, do please nuke us."

Christ, you're so blinded by you suspected superiority in this fucking insane action that your ignoring the reality and gravity of the situation!

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to WBO

---

Jessica looked up from her screen, her face draining of color as she realised that she had actually sent that message. She sighed and turned off her computer. "Shit... I need vacation. Like, now." She shook her head, "No wonder the rest of the Federation left. This is like talking to a wall..."

Wombat News Report (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91196)

Again, the trawler operation and the information we provided the spy about it, was of course created in order to make us ABSOLUTELY sure that we did not accuse someone innocent for espionage and high treachery; therefore, we provided information that would generate a quick response and exact references to the information provided - i.e. the nuke, geiger meaters on the trawler, talk of non-existant 'frogmen', and the like. In this, our operation was fully succesful.

And, even though we of course regard the SATO with exterme caution and suspicion, we were confident that they would not respond with any kind of pre-emptive strike, as we believed that that would be even below their level of judgement, something that has also been a correct analysis.


Concerning the plight of Skargarden, WE have forged a treaty between them and Svea Riga.
So, perhaps Tarasovka should provide something new instead of repeating the same old lithanias.

That you should have watched closely to that Skargarden gets full sovereignety and independance and not let it to the mercy of CACE nations.


OOC: And I just bumped my post for others to see and to argue :roll:
I love arguing :roll:

The old man behind the desk sighs deeply as the message begins to record... it would go out to concerned parties as a diplomatic statement, so he could afford a little theatrics in the delivery.

"Forgive me for my intervention in what is undoubtedly none of my business but one cannot help noticing that the agents and espousers of CACE in this matter have provided proof of several things, however they make huge motivational and active assumptions based on these proofs that they do not support. In effect, they prove one thing and then claim six additional things as corollories... none of which follow the intitial proof."

"Now, both Menelmacar and SeOCC could both be termed" *ahem* "'fish in a barrel', insofar as that they each have a fair number of persons who will assume the worst of them as publicly broadcast such. It is very easy to raise agreement on the perfidity of both and since we are all very familiar with the 'big lie' theory, we can ignore the agruments of our chosen antipathy. Therefore the rational man's only recourse is to observe evidence to the acusations each one presents."

"The evidence put forward by CACE reveals not a plot against them, but a plot against SeOCC. To whit, they were attempting to convince CACE of the perfidity of SeOCC and get him thrown out... thereby enabling the restoration of amenable relations between themselves and the remainder of SeOCC. Otherwise, they would be forced into an action against a SeOCC that still possesses CACE backing... putting them up against innocent men should they take steps to prevent terrorism."

"Lady Sirithil nos Feanor, pardon my pronunciation, put forward evidence that SeOCC was "a rogue state" and that it actively supported terrorism. SeOCC responded to these accusations by claiming that it was not a rogue state, that I did not support terrorism... merely support the people who perform terrorist acts and that Menelmacar was evil. The former they argue on definition, the latter on perspective and the centre of sophistry. SeOCC admits to actively supporting an organisation which commits terrorist acts. SeOCC admits to attempting by diplomatic, political and military means to influence the governments of other states against the will of those dwelling therein. These activities are disruptive of the harmony of a community and therefore are directly against the tenets of communism. Thus it can only be considered proof that SeOCC does, in fact, rate definition of a rogue state."

"As for the role of Menelmacar in this matter... they make an effective stalking horse, but reviewing the evidence one sees that both WBO and SATO are involved in this matter... neither of which could be described as a puppet of Men'carian will. If this is an invasion for personal agrandisement, then it is unusually well spread out... if it is an attempt to destroy worldwide communism, then it is both misplaced and very welcome. We do not consider the residents of SeOCC to be truelly communist and feell that they give those who wish to dwell in peace and mutual prosperity a bad name... especially by their terrorist acts. The Reich? is being used as a potential strong-arm for the purposes of beating down SeOCC, a mutual enemy. However, the evidence of Diablo_NL decaring hatred for them is proof that no alliance has been declared nor a mutuality of interest beyond the removal of 'communist terrorists', which I would regard as an oxymoron."

"I conclusion... well... we are watching and awaiting developments of this invasion that one side claims was planned all along and the other cites as a last resort of diplomacy. We also await reports on the contents of vessel, as supplied by... Rhur, was it?"

Sigh "So much noise, so little thought."

FOh, and, what about all the other points brought up in Ladt Sirithil's address? You seem to just be focusing on one point, while ignoring the totality of the arguement. Honestly. Where did you people learn to debate?

So I guess I have to take this since Ibin left.

Our position is this: the Menelmacari Hegemon's argument was originally posted as part of a plot, you'll notice from those logs, to force the CACE to throw out SeOCC and, eventually, justify war or demans for total capitulation. They were intended to turn the tide of public opinion against SeOCC by presenting half-truths and dated information.

I refer Ms. Hawthorne to SO Khalid's quite on the point remarks regarding the economic and VA allegations. If you could perhaps tell us what exactly it is about his statement that you find unsatisfactory I would be happy to further expound upon our position.

Terry Burke
Under Minister of Politics
SeOCC

We would like that Hack and the likes would read our last post, too; these points have already been sufficiently addressed: there is no paranoia, key members of the SATO wish for a war against the CACE, and of course we knew that the SATO would react as they have to the trawler - i.e. they'd help us expose their spy in their hunger for a excuse to invade us.

What we want is for SATO to remove it's forces from Aperin

Where in Aperin do you see any SATO forces that were not invited? Indeed, welcomed?

Just curious.

Sakura Kitsuki

Tarrican, SeOCC are not Socialists, so you will not gain much by referring to them as such. Also, of course an attack against a member of the Coalition is an attack against the Coailition; furthermore, we have certain indications that SATO members did indeed not only want to attack SeOCC but rather the entirety of the Coalition. Obviously, this is also why they wanted to seek the help of the Reich - they would certainly not need to enlist some of their worst enemies in order to attack ONE single nation, in addition one with a very small military.

Jessica glares at her terminal and starts to type out a responce.

---

Now, look... there's

---

She stops, frowns, and cancels the message, muttering under her breath "We're not in SATO... we're not in SATO... we're not in SATO..."

What we want is for SATO to remove it's forces from Aperin

Where in Aperin do you see any SATO forces that were not invited? Indeed, welcomed?

Just curious.

Sakura Kitsuki

[Everywhere except Skargarden. And it's a big effin continent, just look at our map. Note the '1000 kilometer' scale measurement.

With that OOC note, I'm heading to bed.]

What we want is for SATO to remove it's forces from Aperin

Where in Aperin do you see any SATO forces that were not invited? Indeed, welcomed?

Just curious.

Sakura Kitsuki

Are we to believe that it was merely coincidence that you choose to host "wargames" in Skargarden, and that you were so naive as to think it would not create a massive heightening of tensions?

If we, or let's say The Reich for that matter, were ammassing forces in the name of wargames on your borders would you welcome us or wish us to leave?

The wreckless actions here are those of SATO in building up such a huge force in the neghbourhood of an alliance they already have less than perfect relations with. But then again, we already know why Skargarden was choosen as the location of the wargames don't we.

And to Ms Hawthorne, the reality of the situation,as you say, is that our plan worked.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Where in Aperin do you see any SATO forces that were not invited? Indeed, welcomed?

Just curious.


[Everywhere except Skargarden. And it's a big effin continent, just look at our map. Note the '1000 kilometer' scale measurement.

With that OOC note, I'm heading to bed.]

OOC: There are no SATO forces in Aperin, other than in Skargarten, genius.

If we, or let's say The Reich for that matter, were ammassing forces in the name of wargames on your borders would you welcome us or wish us to leave?


Actually, we would sell them encounter suits and Icecream.

*Points to the 'oil rig' situation... how did SeOCC react, how did I react (when Svea riga did the same with me)*

Clear example of who is reasonable and who is paranoid.

"The evidence put forward by CACE reveals not a plot against them, but a plot against SeOCC. To whit, they were attempting to convince CACE of the perfidity of SeOCC and get him thrown out... thereby enabling the restoration of amenable relations between themselves and the remainder of SeOCC. Otherwise, they would be forced into an action against a SeOCC that still possesses CACE backing... putting them up against innocent men should they take steps to prevent terrorism."

This statement is clearly false, as proven by this (http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/WBO%20pic.jpg). Please note that F under Knootoss' list is 'We invade the CACE' (emphasis added). So you see, the CACE was in fact that target, and SeOCC was merely a convenient, small, militarily weak nation to begin their campaign against.

"Lady Sirithil nos Feanor, pardon my pronunciation, put forward evidence that SeOCC was "a rogue state" and that it actively supported terrorism. SeOCC responded to these accusations by claiming that it was not a rogue state, that I did not support terrorism... merely support the people who perform terrorist acts and that Menelmacar was evil. The former they argue on definition, the latter on perspective and the centre of sophistry. SeOCC admits to actively supporting an organisation which commits terrorist acts. SeOCC admits to attempting by diplomatic, political and military means to influence the governments of other states against the will of those dwelling therein. These activities are disruptive of the harmony of a community and therefore are directly against the tenets of communism. Thus it can only be considered proof that SeOCC does, in fact, rate definition of a rogue state."

For the last time, SeOCC does not nor have we ever support the Volunteer Army's operations. We agreed to have their members, who continued to call themselves Volunteers, join our defense force, but we have never aided their operations, and have condemend them more often than any other nation. We also arrested roughly 3000 of their members, in cooperation with the Rigan authorities, which is hardly the action of a nation that supports them.

So perhaps when someone can produce this vaunted evidence that SeOCC supports or supported the VA in any way we can addresss these accusations. The problem is we can hardly discredit evidence that does not exist, and so it is impossible for us to answer these accusations since they are totally baseless. Again, as SO Khalid stated, it is common practice to offer amnesty in return for service to the government, and who better to prepare to fight a guerilla war than guerillas? And the VA conducted no operations while in SeOCC, so I cannot see how our enlistment of VA members qualifies as support for terrorists.

As for this:

SATO suspected that that trawler was being used to deploy NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Honestly. What in the name of Tsathoggua did you expect them to do? Ignore it and say, "Oh, do please nuke us."

I am given to understand we expected them to do exactly what they did. It was a sting, yes? Intended to make them do something stupid, yes? We're not complaining that Ruhr boarded the trawler, we are in fact grateful, we're just pointing out that they boarded the trawler of a hostile nation based on one piece of intelligence that they never bothered to try to verify.

Will you please take that fact into account? I'm very, very tired.

Terry Burke
Under Minister of Politics
SeOCC

OOC: There are no SATO forces in Aperin, other than in Skargarten, genius.[/quote]

OOC: Err...who said they were anywhere other than Skargarden, which is in Aperin, and which is on the Seocc border? I asked how you would respond to such actions by an alliance you believe to be hostile.

*Points to the 'oil rig' situation... how did SeOCC react, how did I react (when Svea riga did the same with me)*

ooc: point of ooc information, SeOCC tried to buy the oil rigs off DA, who turned the offer down. also, if i recall DA, you admitted you only put those rigs there to try to embarass me, so why would you fall for the same ruse(though SR had other ic reasons for the rigs outside your nation)?

just a point of information.

1. Does it change the facts?

No.

2. With WHAT would you buy them?

Last i checked, your economy doesn´t run on money. You have no trade outside CACE.

You have nothing to them from me.

Oh, and btw, it would have been illegal, as you would break the CACE charter, conducting 'trade' with me :P

What we want is for SATO to remove it's forces from Aperin

Where in Aperin do you see any SATO forces that were not invited? Indeed, welcomed?

Just curious.


Are we to believe that it was merely coincidence that you choose to host "wargames" in Skargarden, and that you were so naive as to think it would not create a massive heightening of tensions?

Nope.

You're to believe that it's none of your business who Skargarden chooses to welcome, as long as it has nothing to do with you. Since there are no SATO flags flying over CACE capitals, it obviously didn't.

Leaving aside the fact that we didn't choose to host wargames anywhere, nor did we participate in any.

If we, or let's say The Reich for that matter, were ammassing forces in the name of wargames on your borders would you welcome us or wish us to leave?

Neither. If you obtain permission from one of our border nations to conduct wargames, you're welcome to do so.

If you crossed that border, of course, we'd make you depart. One way or the other.

But we don't make claims over other nations just because they happen to be located on the same continent. Nor do we threaten nuclear attacks for any reason.

The wreckless actions here are those of SATO in building up such a huge force in the neghbourhood of an alliance they already have less than perfect relations with. But then again, we already know why Skargarden was choosen as the location of the wargames don't we.

I have the feeling you "know" a lot of things. Hopefully some of them are true.

I note that you haven't disputed that SATO was welcomed by its host nation. I believe words such as "liberators" and "saviors" were mentioned, upon their arrival. So I really must ask... if CACE is so benevolent and peace-loving, why would Skargarden receive its declared "enemy" in such a fashion? Why did CACE only move to make peace between Skargarden and Svea Riga after it had learned of SATO's interest? Why did CACE cut all diplomatic channels, if it was worried about "heightening tensions" between the organizations?

I do not believe CACE's leadership is that blind or that ignorant. Therefore, I must believe that they are playing a deeper game. The question, then, is: what is CACE trying to hide from the world?

Perhaps reports out of a free Skargarden will shed some light on the subject...? It is, at the least, something to watch.

Sakura Kitsuki
Minister of Observation

ooc: not going to argue this with you, but here's my side. no more on this here.

1. Does it change the facts?

which facts? for the love of god i did not attack you, okay? if you'd RPed an investigation you would have found out who did, but you didn't, so until you can provide ic proof i did it (which i didn't, so there is no evidence) please stop with the pointless lies.

2. With WHAT would you buy them?

well SR was going to buy them, and he has a real monied economy etc etc.

Oh, and btw, it would have been illegal, as you would break the CACE charter, conducting 'trade' with me

well, as said, SR would buy them, and on top of that, the charter says i need permission from the Coalition Body to trade with Kists, and i'm pretty sure they'd let me do it.

done? good.

For once it seems that diplomacy {or at least what appears to be political bickering :wink: } is being used instead of outright war. Amazing. Tag for further reading. Jeez those manifestos are long :?

PLEASE! The CACE has never threatened anyone with nuclear weapons. Cease this foolery.

And, of course the SATO would react by, for instance, moving forces in response to the new concentration of hostiles near them, and perhaps publicly state that the hostile alliance should refrain from attacking them - just as we have.

And, concerning Skargarden, well, the future will tell.

*edit* This was of course in response of the statement by Ravenspire, so that noone gets confused.

First of. In your first post you show just how stupid these CACE nations are. The brain is not a muscle. I suggest you start a decent biology class in your nation.

Well if you look carefully you will see that all those images of alledged plannings of the war against Seocc and the CACE, were taken after the trawler was captured and they provoked us to say the least.

So we were fooled. That's going to be their problem.
So we had a spy in CACE. I myself did not know.
So we held wargames in Aperin to invade CACE. Not as far as I was informed.
So we have been spied on by CACE. Soon the spy is found.

Now CACE I hope you do realise what you have done. As stated before you rejected any effort made by SATO to gain peace. Now you provoke us to war so you can show the world we are fighting an unjust war. Therefor I call upon all of my allies. Those in SATO, CENNA, Sisgardia, WTE and good friends. I call upon my enemies. Those in Arda, the Reich, SAVIOR, and more. To join us in crushing these low lives.
Why should we? Because they have sought to destabillise your economies. Thus making living a lot harder, and created your weapons more costly.

I call all nations off the world to help crush these ignorant excuses for homo sapiens. And send them straight to their death.
And to make it look more tempting I will leave all the spoils of war to those that assist. I see no worth in the ground contaminated by their ideals.

For once it seems that diplomacy {or at least what appears to be political bickering :wink: } is being used instead of outright war. Amazing. Tag for further reading. Jeez those manifestos are long :?
OOC


Sketch,


Read this thread, too:


http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90723&start=0


And also check Siri's website text thing with even more info :?


I think thats the hugest diplomatical raw ever...


Its in two threads each already long with 4 pages :shock:

Well if you look carefully you will see that all those images of alledged plannings of the war against Seocc and the CACE, were taken after the trawler was captured and they provoked us to say the least.

So we were fooled. That's going to be their problem.
So we had a spy in CACE. I myself did not know.
So we held wargames in Aperin to invade CACE. Not as far as I was informed.
So we have been spied on by CACE. Soon the spy is found.


OOC: Amen to that 8)

For once it seems that diplomacy {or at least what appears to be political bickering :wink: } is being used instead of outright war. Amazing. Tag for further reading. Jeez those manifestos are long :?'

ooc: *looks at Diablo_NL's post*

So much for diplomacy >_<

PLEASE! The CACE has never threatened anyone with nuclear weapons. Cease this foolery.

CACE has admitted to planting misinformation regarding a nuclear weapon purportedly being prepared for use against Skargarden and/or SATO forces. That does indeed constitute a nuclear threat. And we're still not buying that you're stupid enough not to see it as one, nor to see the potential consequences, so quit the sophistry, 'kay?

And, of course the SATO would react by, for instance, moving forces in response to the new concentration of hostiles near them, and perhaps publicly state that the hostile alliance should refrain from attacking them - just as we have.

Maybe. So?

What SATO wouldn't do is use civilians as human shields in a plot depending upon rumors of a nuclear attack. CACE put lives at risk -- not just the lives of those on the trawler, but the lives of all those who would have suffered in a preemptive strike. And CACE boasts about this.

The extent of CACE's indifference to not only human life in general, but to the lives of their own populations in specific, is, frankly, staggering. And even more so, the fact that CACE does not seem to grasp this.

Why else do you think non-SATO nations such as Tor Yvresse, Tarrican, and Tarasovka have condemned CACE's actions?


And, concerning Skargarden, well, the future will tell.


Perhaps.

Sakura Kitsuki
Minister of Indicating the Obvious

OOC: Edit to fix quote brackets.

For once it seems that diplomacy {or at least what appears to be political bickering :wink: } is being used instead of outright war. Amazing. Tag for further reading. Jeez those manifestos are long :?'

ooc: *looks at Diablo_NL's post*

So much for diplomacy >_<
ooc: Me and being provoked to war doesn't leave room for diplomacy. But that's your own mistake.

Why did CACE only move to make peace between Skargarden and Svea Riga after it had learned of SATO's interest? Why did CACE cut all diplomatic channels, if it was worried about "heightening tensions" between the organizations?

We have, in point of fact, been interested in the Skargarden/Svea Riga conflict for some time; it is, as you will appreciate, quite sensitive, but matters seem to be coming together now. For an explanation of your question as to why the CACE has chosen to sever diplomatic relations wit the WBO and SATO, please refer to this thread. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2057458#2057458)

Ahh, very good, very good. You play the diplomat - answering the question without answering the question.

All right, I'll play your game.

Let's just play devil's advocate here, and say, for the sake of argument, that SATO was not only willing to attack the CACE but actually planning to do so - instead of, say, one member pushing for an attack on CACE with pretty much everyone else against the idea without a hugely good reason, but that's another argument. Let's say you're right.

So, why then, would we have not attacked you when we thought there was a nuke on the boat? Explain to me why an alliance planning to attack another alliance would suddenly step back and grow a sense of reason when nuclear-armed Volunteer Army terrorists enter the picture. Surely, were we planning to attack anyway, the allegations of a nuclear plot would simply provide the casus belli that an attack would require to be legitimate, would it not?

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

Very well, I shall indulge you.

Even though you planned to attack us, you did not plan to execute a nuclear strike against us. For one, why bother moving that much hardware in if you planned to nuke us, and for another, preemptive nuclear strikes don't tend to go down well with the international community. Especially when at that point we knew you had no evidence, i.e. you thought there was a nuke, but you didn't actually have it did you, and you would need that evidence to justify nuclear retaliation. "Alegations of a plot" are not enough for you and , despite what reservations about your government I may have, I do not believe you wish to portray yourselves as psychopaths.

If your intelligence had been correct, once verified I am in no doubt you would have launched an immediate attack. Let's face it, Diablo_NL still wants to invade Seocc.

Yes, we took a calculated risk. And it worked.

I must say however, that you talk about nuclear weapons as though there is something magical about them...a word that must not be uttered. Yet none of you gave a damn when Seocc was threatened by nuclear weapons and we asked you for help. So please, less of the rightious indignation if you don't mind.

I will say one thing though. If there are SATO members still genuinely saying "we had no plans to attack you" then I think you'd better damned well start finding out what some of your members are organizing in your name.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.
I ask you, where did I say anything about a pre-emptive nuclear strike? Do not put words in my mouth. I was referring to the very same sort of pre-emptive strike that you assumed we were planning all along, one with conventional weapons and military force. Menelmacar does not use WMD's, nor does it condone their use.

As for the nuclear threat against SeOCC, it was not a government supporting the move, now was it? In this case, had there been a nuke on that boat, it would have been an action directly supported by your government and that of SeOCC, and thus would have provided casus belli... though I still remain at a loss as to why you would attempt to provide us casus belli, since it would only help to justify a war that you thought would happen anyway.

~Lord Turelio nos Fingolfin
Menelmacari Prefect of State

M: Ah, but of course, there WAS no nuke, so you have no casus belli, and of course we wouldn't want to provide you with one, since we do not wish for you to invade us.

Ravenspire: Please, your arguments about putting people to risk is irrelevant - we were positive that you would indeed never respond by using weapons of mass destruction against us, but rather to seize the trawler in order to get an excuse to attack us: something proven by the undeniable fact that is reality- you didn't attack us, you did board the trawler; and, also, by the very words of Menelmacar, leading member of SATO: "and thus would have provided casus belli..." + "Menelmacar does not use WMD's, nor does it condone their use.".

More putting of words in mouths... where did Ravenspire refer to a pre-emptive nuclear strike by SATO?

~Lord Turelio

A general statement as to the rationale behind the actions taken:

The plot was both undertaken to oust our informer and to reveal information we had gathered, some of it volunteered by anonymous parties whose identities we do not ourselves know, that, while 'wargames' are propagated off the shores of our coastline, plans existed all the while to attack and invade. Whether or not these plans were made available to all members of SATO is immaterial: had the planners been effective, the entirety of SATO would have folowed tem to war with CACE nations.

We responded by stepping up defense and revealing the plans to the world to derail the invasion before it started. No one has been harmed. No lives have een lost. The CACE has issued, and will issue, no call to war.

As to my knowledge Menelmacar is NOT the leading member of SATO. That title belonged to Lavenrunz and is now being voted upon. And Menelmacar is not even running for the position of Secretary General. So I suggest you edit your statement.

...revealing the plans to the world to derail the invasion before it started.
No you didn't, you revealed them - and possibly even received them - after the Lady called the sanity, ethics, motives, and intentions of your leaders into question.

~Lord Turelio

...revealing the plans to the world to derail the invasion before it started.
No you didn't, you revealed them - and possibly even received them - after the Lady called the sanity, ethics, motives, and intentions of your leaders into question.

~Lord Turelio

As for receiving them, the report is quite clear; we've had them for some time. As for revealing them: some of us have to sleep sometimes.

As to my knowledge Menelmacar is NOT the leading member of SATO. That title belonged to Lavenrunz and is now being voted upon. And Menelmacar is not even running for the position of Secretary General. So I suggest you edit your statement.

No, not THE leading member, you are correct.

PLEASE! The CACE has never threatened anyone with nuclear weapons. Cease this foolery.

CACE has admitted to planting misinformation regarding a nuclear weapon purportedly being prepared for use against Skargarden and/or SATO forces. That does indeed constitute a nuclear threat. And we're still not buying that you're stupid enough not to see it as one, nor to see the potential consequences, so quit the sophistry, 'kay?

Indeed they admit they aimed the entire plot towards the person they where 90% sure was the spy, in order to get the final concrete Evidence. In doing so they admit that they where 90% certain the information would get back to the members of SATO, and so when you are certain information it becomes no longer a ruse, but a direct Threat.

You where Certain information regarding the use of a Nuclear weapon would be recieved, that this information would be seen as credable, (The people in question had access to nuclear weapons after all, and the training to deploy such weapons in the manner suggested.) The actual lack of a nuclear weapon is in fact irrelavent, a nuclear THREAT was made, after all Threats do not need to be carried out, you where hoping the matter would be viewed in this manner, that SATO was under the threat of a nuclear weapon. You THREATENED them directly.

And, of course the SATO would react by, for instance, moving forces in response to the new concentration of hostiles near them, and perhaps publicly state that the hostile alliance should refrain from attacking them - just as we have.

Maybe. So?

What SATO wouldn't do is use civilians as human shields in a plot depending upon rumors of a nuclear attack. CACE put lives at risk -- not just the lives of those on the trawler, but the lives of all those who would have suffered in a preemptive strike. And CACE boasts about this.



Indeed this we increasingly hold to be true also.

Farseer Council

...revealing the plans to the world to derail the invasion before it started.
No you didn't, you revealed them - and possibly even received them - after the Lady called the sanity, ethics, motives, and intentions of your leaders into question.

~Lord Turelio

As for receiving them, the report is quite clear; we've had them for some time. As for revealing them: some of us have to sleep sometimes.
Whose plans are we talking about here, yours or ours?

~Lord Turelio

I'll post this here also to avoid confusion:

OOC: *notes all the other evidence provided still stands and that SeOCC willingly ICly provoked nuclear conflict to smoke out a spy he already knew OOCly was there.* :roll:

The next day, the newspaper Trouw.

Knootoss pulls back from the brink!
Red button nearly pressed

KNOOTCAP – The world narrowly avoided an all-out nuclear conflict yesterday as Knootian government hastily aborted a full-scale retaliatory strike against SeOCC at the last moment. Intelligence information from reliable sources suggesting that a nuclear weapon was being smuggled into Skargarden by terrorists openly supported by the SeOCC government proved to be false. When the nuclear weapon was not found the government could only assume that the terrorists had succeeded in slipping through the coalition lines and had already placed the weapon. A statement by the rogue state’s officials came just in the nick of time, as both the Prime Minister and other key officials had already authorised for the use of weapons of mass destruction against the SeOCC. This nation has recently been classified as a ‘rogue nation’ for openly supporting terrorist organisations such as the Volunteer Army, plotting to destabilize world economies and cracking down on freedom by force.

A shocked government representative issued a strong condemnation of the SeOCC government for playing bluff poker with the lives of billions of people by deliberately planting false information regarding an imminent nuclear strike. The representative said: “I shudder to think what would have happened when their statement had come twenty-five minutes later. Aperin would have been a nuclear wasteland and the world would probably be engaging in an all out thermonuclear conflict right now.”

In answer to questions by journalists, the representative freely admitted that the boarding of the SeOCC ‘marine biology’ trawler by the Ruhrian Imperial Navy was, “a regrettable mistake in retrospective” but she immediately added that the response was “completely justified and legitimate given the extreme circumstances.” She called upon the Naval Waters act and cited this as a situation of ‘clear and present danger’. Later she explained: “With the knowledge we possessed back then we would have done the same thing again. We had every reason to believe that the lives of millions of Skargardians and hundreds of thousands of SATO forces were at stake. We would not want to be remembered as those who knew of the impending danger but did not act.”

However despite these words the huge intelligence blunder is having it’s fallout back home. The head of the General Intelligence and Security Agency (AIVD) voluntary stepped down two hours after the announcement was made. However it is highly likely that his resignation would have been forced anyway. Responses from political parties were generally shocked and enraged about the whole situation.

All parties have blamed the AIVD for failing and called for increased funding to the intelligence organisation which had been facing cutbacks in recent years. But where SLP, RCPK and KEP clearly lay blame on the SeOCC government for this crisis the green KGP called this evidence of the folly of war and possessing nuclear weapons.
Green leader Femke Halsema repeated her parties view that Knootoss should disarm its nukes and sign the non-proliferation treaty. More conservative members however have provided a different solution, suggesting that this near-incident is a sign that Knootoss should seek to strengthen relations within the SATO bulwark. In the short to medium term the incident further disturbs the already fragile liberal/green coalition.
[continues on page 2 and 3]

EDIT: extra OOC note. This would have been a retalliatory strike had the "nuke" gone off.

Ravenspire: Please, your arguments about putting people to risk is irrelevant - we were positive that you would indeed never respond by using weapons of mass destruction against us,

1. I never mentioned a response "using weapons of mass destruction." A conventional preemptive strike would also have endangered those people.

2. Putting people at risk is never irrelevant. Particularly not when the people are civilians. CACE evinced a reprehensible lack of regard for human life in this instance, and the proof is in the fact that non-SATO nations have called you on it.

but rather to seize the trawler in order to get an excuse to attack us: something proven by the undeniable fact that is reality- you didn't attack us, you did board the trawler;

Duh.

What do you think will happen, when you employ nuclear threats? That others will blithely ignore it? Perhaps take a few days to fact-check? No. As has been pointed out to you several times, again by non-SATO nations, a nation in such a position will act. Nuclear weapons are not something to be taken lightly.

It is precisely because of SATO's restraint that there were no casualties -- a less-concerned state could easily have simply blown the trawler out of the water. And one even less committed could have, for instance, launched missiles against sites within CACE nations.

You will note that those on the trawler were not harmed, despite what was acknowledged as deliberate provocation of the boarders. This means that Ruhr reacted swiftly and effectively to a credible threat, without overreacting.

Furthermore, one must wonder: if you thought SATO was looking for "an excuse to attack [CACE]," then why the bloody hell did you send that trawler out and place rumors of a nuclear weapon? You apparently now wish us, and the world, to believe that you did not see the likelihood that such actions would create a self-fulfilling prophecy. But as I've said before... I don't believe CACE's leadership is that stupid.

and, also, by the very words of Menelmacar, leading member of SATO: "and thus would have provided casus belli..." + "Menelmacar does not use WMD's, nor does it condone their use.".

Both statements are true.

However, the fact that finding a nuclear device aboard the trawler would constitute a casus belli does not mean that SATO members were actively seeking a casus belli. In fact, if that were the case, then it seems likely that the rumor would have been seized upon to declare war, and/or initiate a preemptive strike, in response to the nuclear threat. That did not happen; instead, the trawler was boarded and investigated.

In other words, CACE has offered a potential provocation to war, and SATO has not accepted.

Sakura Kitsuki
Minister of Peace, Love, and Understanding

From what we have read, we believe that the actions of SATO against our Socialist Friends are petty.
Yet again, I find that this whole meaningless and irrelevant argument is petty.
I call upon both sides to sign a full blown non-aggression pact aimed at generating trust between opposing systems. There is nothing to be gained from mutually arguing like small children with big toys.

Chancellor Ulrik Norval
"KBO = Keep Buggering On"
The Patriotic Socialist Dominion of Kassak

((OOC I'll lay out TY's position we don't care about all this talk about World Currencys TY existed for several Thousend Years alone in the depths of space, with only other Craftworlds for regualar Trade. We can do it again if we really needed too. We don't care about CACE and SATO's Ideological differances. We do however care when an ally is threatened with Nuclear weapons, strangely enough))

Ravenspire, it is most tiresome to be forced to repeat the same arguments over and over agani: We were confident that you would not attack us but rather investigate, and so you did - case closed. We judged that it would be in the interest of the people and the freedom within the CACE to remove these spies, and so we did. There's nothing stupid about it since we obviously were correct.

Now, as said, the trawler operation was a mere parenthesis in this - what's important is that we have gotten rid of this spy, and that we have exposed your willingness to go to war.

What happened was precisely what we thought would happen: you exposed your own spy.

And, of course, there is no nuclear threat, and there was no intention to threat anyone with nuclear weapons: since we anticipated your reaction, we were certain that the absence of said weapon on the trawler would pretty much prove that we never intended to use one: this, too, has proven to be correct.

Furthermore, you can certainly not say that third-party misinformation is to consider as a direct threat; perhaps an indirect one, but certainly not a direct one.

ooc: posting again re: K's article.

ooc: K i think the shock has fried your brain because you've got your timeline seriously crossed here.

Ruhr's little raid couldn't have taken more than an hour, a RP that Ruhr has yet to finish. now the diplomatic exchanges that have been flying must have taken days, so how could it be that you had your finger on the trigger until we explained when Ruhr hasn't finished his investigation?

think about it: i can guarantee that by the end of Ruhr's RP it will be crystal clear that there was never a nuke on that trailer. how? because EVERY DIVER WILL COME BACK TO THE SHIP. and no matter how quick you think they can swim they could not have covered all that distance (look at the map and see where the DMZ between Skargarden and SeOCC is in relation to the eastern coast of Skargarden) in one day.

so while your little article is all nice and inflamatory and stuff, it kind of makes no sense.

and frankly i'm getting sick of this whole 'SeOCC threatened nuclear war' thing. seriously, you guys got ONCE PIECE OF INTELLIGENCE that you NEVER FOLLOWED UP ON. what if we changed our mind? what if, forgetting to tell Sailune (assuming we thought they were on the up and up) we pulled out the operatives? did you ever consider that?

i don't mind exchanging insults and arguments but you guys are just making stuff up. as i've said, i can't defend myself when my accusers have no evidence to support their arguments. same goes for the VA stuff; how about you reply ic to my explanations before you keep going with this crap.

Since everyone seems to be ignoring me I might as well kill some time. The office is totally empty and everyone else is at the party.

If SeOCC had, instead of saying we were using a nuclear weapon, said we were goign to deploy two or three conventional warheads, some big fuel airbombs or those MOAB things, that would equal the explosive force of a nuke, would that be any differant?

Frankly I think SO Khalid's statements really address this issue: it's not that disinformation is bad, it's that we fooled you guys. The fact that no one is even addressing SO Khalid's points indicates, at least to me, that no one has a reply.

Something to chew on.

Terry Burke
Under Minister of Politics
SeOCC

The benevolent Jaar, Great emperor of the wonderful nation of Vegana

*chuckle*

The Evil SATO dogs once more show their true ugly foulsmelling snouts and put them were they not belong. But this time they got stung, and like a rabid bear they strike everywhere around them and try to prove their innocense with the honeyjar still stuck on their nose. I laugh at their weak attempts, I break wind in their general direction. I wouldn't even pee on them if they were on fire.

Know that leading nations of The Reich was approached by SATO dogs to help them in their little operation. The more easily swayed of us talked about the gains it could give us and others made points of the opportunity to crush SATO when weakened from the war. One thing we fully agreed on. WE would never stand on the same side as SATO-dogs in a war against another fraction, never. We would never fight side by side with the heathens, knowing all the children they have killed, see their elven pride ruin more humans, and expecting the treasonous dagger in the back that is a trademark of this Organisation.

Do not however confuse the dirty SATO with all capitalist nations, or even the misguided WBO. Obviously the sly SATO-dogs took advantage of the WBO organisation and had meetings and used WBO-resources in their Evil scheemes. This blame fall however totally on SATO and not WBO. Once more the world sees the true SATO.

GOD IS GREAT!
GOD BLESS THE REICH!
DEATH TO SATO!

OOC: This is in response to Hack's statement on page 1 (or 2).

During the "EOTED/AMF " incident, an informant notified me of an elaborate plot to gain my trust, then stab me in the back. I can vouch for the authenticity of this informant.

Ravenspire, it is most tiresome to be forced to repeat the same arguments over and over agani: We were confident that you would not attack us but rather investigate, and so you did - case closed.

If you thought that SATO (not "us" -- as I've said before, we had no part in any of this) was looking for a reason to go to war with you, then why were you so confident SATO would investigate, rather than attack?

That is not the act of a warmonger.

We judged that it would be in the interest of the people and the freedom within the CACE to remove these spies, and so we did. There's nothing stupid about it since we obviously were correct.


The (apparent) stupidity lies in the willful endangerment of your own people through making such an extreme threat. Of course a nation will react when faced with a potential nuclear bombing. That reaction does not in any way indicate a desire to go to war.

But "willingness"? Yes, we are willing to go to war, should it be necessary. We believe most if not all of SATO is equally willing, should it be necessary. We believe most nations in existence are willing, should it be necessary (and too many, when it is not). This should not come as a surprise to you.

A credible nuclear threat is pretty near the top on the list of things that could necessitate military action. CACE -- like the civilians it blithely threw into danger -- is fortunate that its confidence in SATO's lack of aggression proved justified. If SATO was the warmongering coalition you portray them as, at least one CACE nation would be burying its dead.

And, of course, there is no nuclear threat, and there was no intention to threat anyone with nuclear weapons

Wrong.

Fact: CACE admitted an intent to plant rumors of a nuclear device on the ship.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO to hear these rumors.

(This already constitutes a threat, by the by. But it gets better.)

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO forces to react to these rumors.

Conclusion I: CACE intentionally baited SATO forces with the specter of a nuclear device. CACE has admitted to as much, but this is included for the sake of completeness.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO forces to react violently to these rumors.

Conclusion II: CACE intentionally placed the civilians aboard the trawler in danger. CACE has, again, admitted to as much.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO to seize upon these rumors as a casus belli, involving a large-scale invasion of Aperin.

Conclusion III: CACE intentionally placed its populace in danger by spreading these rumors.

Fact: SATO forces did not, in fact, react violently to these rumors. They did not open fire upon the trawler. In fact, SATO forces never even boarded the trawler. (Ruhr is a member of the WBO and NATO, but not SATO.)

Conclusion IV: CACE's statements against SATO are, at best, misdirected.

Fact: SATO forces did not seize upon the rumors to attack CACE members, nor did they invade Aperin, nor has any other force participating in the wargames done so.

Conclusion V: SATO was not, in fact, looking for an excuse to invade Aperin. If they had been, it would have happened.

Fact: CACE claims to have feared a SATO invasion, yet it executed a plan involving an apparent and credible nuclear strike on SATO, other forces participating in the wargames, and/or Skargarden.

Fact (restatement for clarity): CACE has admitted to hoping for a violent SATO reaction to this plan.

Fact: Had CACE not employed a rumor of an imminent attack on Skargarden and/or SATO and allied forces, the trawler in question would not have been boarded.

Conclusion VI: CACE is acting to provoke the very war it claims to want to avoid.

Sakura Kitsuki
Minister of Still Not Buying It

From what we have read, we believe that the actions of SATO against our Socialist Friends are petty.
Yet again, I find that this whole meaningless and irrelevant argument is petty.
I call upon both sides to sign a full blown non-aggression pact aimed at generating trust between opposing systems. There is nothing to be gained from mutually arguing like small children with big toys.

I reiterate my suggestion. Take it seriously.

Chancellor Ulrik Norval
"KBO = Keep Buggering On"
The Patriotic Socialist Dominion of Kassak

From what we have read, we believe that the actions of SATO against our Socialist Friends are petty.
Yet again, I find that this whole meaningless and irrelevant argument is petty.
I call upon both sides to sign a full blown non-aggression pact aimed at generating trust between opposing systems. There is nothing to be gained from mutually arguing like small children with big toys.

I reiterate my suggestion. Take it seriously.

Chancellor Ulrik Norval
"KBO = Keep Buggering On"
The Patriotic Socialist Dominion of Kassak

Kassat: Our government already proposed a non-agression pact to them. the CACE refused.

<Quantum-encrypted diplomatic communique to Diablo_NL>

The Conglomerate has not forgotten our friends in the WTE. Your call for us to join you in a war against CACE, however, is too much to ask. It has never been good business policy to wage war based on political differences.

My employer, whom I represent, has expressed his admiration of your efforts to rally SATO and the free world. Because of our own situation, we cannot afford to give you overt support, however we will offer covert discounts on fuel, ammunition, food, and supplies. In return we only ask that you continue, in the name of all that is good, to solve the problem as we both know it must, inevitably, be solved; and that our support remain confidential.

If this is not satisfactory, let us know.

Eric Love
Director, International Developments Group
PrattCo Conglomerate

That is not the act of a warmonger.

Your thinking is overly simple and you're logic is built upon a constructed strawman of possible courses of action available to WBO/SATO. Please note that the WBO/SATO did not verify the intelligence. They moved without any kind of assurance and, I suppose, put their faith in a spy who they never thought would be deceived. This, in my opinion, is the reckless act here.

On unverified intelligence they acted without hesitation, which is irresponsible. I suppose one might argue that the severity of the perceived threat justifies this irresponsibility, but I see it as the opposite. The greater the threat the more careful you must be. It is quite clear, from their internal discussions, that they intended to use the evidence seized on that trailer as a justification for war. Please note that the CACE, having gained evidence of this WBO/SATO war effort (false as you may think it is, we think it's true, which returns us to a point re: perception) seek peace, not to use it as a justification for war.

You also apply an absurdly simple rubrick to determining how the WBO/SATO could have acted. We have stated ad nauseum that they could have approached the trawler peacefully and asked permission to board rather than forced their way in. They did not, and though you seek to justify these actions you must confront the fact that a less violent, peace oriented method was available. It suits your argument, though, to deny this in order to bolster your own floundering case. Please respect our intelligence enough not to through tripe on our plates and call it gourmet.

Of course a nation will react when faced with a potential nuclear bombing. That reaction does not in any way indicate a desire to go to war.

You are obviously unfamiliar with SeOCC, our culture or our nation. SeOCC is actually Metro SeOCC, a strip 150x50km which contains 99.9% of all human habitation inside SeOCC, which is 250x100km roughly. Nuclear weapons, MOAB's, cruise missiles, in our nation these are all weapons that indiscriminately kill because of how densely packed our population is. A single battleship is a weapon of mass destruction to us, but we did not board, attack or harrass a single one of the huge fleet parked in Skargarden. We upped our security and prepared for the worse but did not act against them.

Consider this before you point fingers, consider the culture of the nation you accuse.

A credible nuclear threat is pretty near the top on the list of things that could necessitate military action.

The threat was not, though, credible. Please consult the map of Aperin (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE/index.php?showtopic=323) and notice that, though not shown on this map, southern SeOCC is bordered by a small strip of land on the east. This is Skargarden territory, and this is where the DMZ exists. Why would we sail a boat hundreds of kilometers to plant a weapon a fifty or so kilometers from our border?

Had there been an investigation, had the trawler been approached peacefully, this would not have happened. The WBO/SATO, with their highly competant intelligence agencies, would have found out it was a hoax. But they did not make this effort, and so the perceived credibility must be reconsidered.

Fact: CACE admitted an intent to plant rumors of a nuclear device on the ship.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO to hear these rumors.

They were not rumors, they were disinformation. Please do not tell me you do not recognize disinformation as a legitmate and accepted tactic. See above point re: the credibility of these 'threats.'

(This already constitutes a threat, by the by. But it gets better.)

No it does not. If I began randomly telegramming people that I heard your nation was planning nuclear strikes against their nations, would that be credible? No, and so the recipients would investigate. The WBO/SATO spy, though, was trusted, wrongly this time. Your inability to take the necessary steps to verify this information does not allow you to pretend the information was good. There was not threat.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO forces to react to these rumors.

Indeed, we expected them to search the trawler and expose their spy. I, nor did anyone, expect them to come out with guns drawn. That possibility was seen as simply too absurd, to inflamatory. We were wrong.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO forces to react violently to these rumors.

Utterly false. We expected a peaceful military respone, not Ruhr's stormtroopers. There is a difference, though you seem unable to discern it.

Conclusion II: CACE intentionally placed the civilians aboard the trawler in danger. CACE has, again, admitted to as much.

False. The civilians volunteered and we could not imagine there would be any danger. The trawler was in international waters and, again, had there been any obvservation or intelligence done it would have been obvious that there was nothing to fear from the trawler. It seems our opinion of the WBO/SATO is higher than you give us credit for, since no one ever beleived they would shoot people not convicted of a crime who posed no threat to the boarding soldiers.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO to seize upon these rumors as a casus belli, involving a large-scale invasion of Aperin.

True, but please stop the pointless latic words. No one is impressed.

Conclusion III: CACE intentionally placed its populace in danger by spreading these rumors.

False. Again, because the disinformation would lead not to war but WBO/SATO embarassment we considered the threat of invastion decreased with a successful operation of this kind. It is inconceiveable that any nation or alliance could justify an invasion based on disinformation and their political embarassment.

Fact: SATO forces did not, in fact, react violently to these rumors. They did not open fire upon the trawler. In fact, SATO forces never even boarded the trawler. (Ruhr is a member of the WBO and NATO, but not SATO.)

You, perhaps, are not aware of the links between the WBO and SATO but we are not so blind. The two are allied, if not effectively one. A SATO ally, a WBO member acting for the WBO/SATO forces in the area, boarded the trailer. At the very least they were acting as an agent of SATO, and therefore represented SATO. The point is one of semantics and your petty attention to this is unimpressive.

Conclusion IV: CACE's statements against SATO are, at best, misdirected.

It seems you are again mistaken, given how SATO nations have closed ranks. The de facto alliance between the WBO nations and SATO nations makes differentiation pointless, or rather, useless to anyone with an interest in cutting to the heart of the matter. Your use of this argument seems only there to obscure the indiscretions of your own allies by attempting to point out a differance of opinions regarding alliance structure.

Fact: SATO forces did not seize upon the rumors to attack CACE members, nor did they invade Aperin, nor has any other force participating in the wargames done so.

True, as the CACE planned and predicted.

Conclusion V: SATO was not, in fact, looking for an excuse to invade Aperin. If they had been, it would have happened.

False, please see posted statements. Especially see Diablo's and Knootoss' statements regarding invasion. Please notice the lack of official condemnation regarding those statements. If a CACE member were found to be plotting war against a WBO or SATO nation, in our name, you can be sure the outcry would be deafening. The only thing deafening here is an awkward silence.

Fact: CACE claims to have feared a SATO invasion, yet it executed a plan involving an apparent and credible nuclear strike on SATO, other forces participating in the wargames, and/or Skargarden.

This, I'm afraid, is not fact but interpretation. Again, the nuclear threat was in no way credible.

Fact (restatement for clarity): CACE has admitted to hoping for a violent SATO reaction to this plan.

Again, not fact. The CACE expected military, not violent, action.

Fact: Had CACE not employed a rumor of an imminent attack on Skargarden and/or SATO and allied forces, the trawler in question would not have been boarded.

This cannot be fact because it cannot be proven, merely asserted. You believe the trawler would not have been boarded but we will never know. Frankly I agree, which is why we undertook a disinformation campaign.

Conclusion VI: CACE is acting to provoke the very war it claims to want to avoid.

Your logic is horrible, you jump to huge conclusions with little actual evidence. Right now we are in the middle of a very tense situation and please refrain from these ludicrous and damagingly inflamatory statements as it makes both sides less likely to attempt a peaceful end. It is you, now, that acts irresponsibly.

Talia Ellman-Fogg
Minister of Politics
SeOCC

Is this very complicated to understand? NO, we did not believe that the trawler operation would provoke violence, we believed that it would yield the exact actions we have seen: the trawler boarded, and thusly the spy exposed. This is also exactly what has happened. We did NOT wish to provoke violence with the trawler operation, we only sought to gain evidence to expose the spy, which we did.

Is this very complicated to understand? NO, we did not believe that the trawler operation would provoke violence, we believed that it would yield the exact actions we have seen: the trawler boarded, and thusly the spy exposed. This is also exactly what has happened. We did NOT wish to provoke violence with the trawler operation, we only sought to gain evidence to expose the spy, which we did.

Then you are either very naive or very stupid. PLease try to put yourself in our position for just a second.

As a note: When I am done with the RP...I am keeping the trawler.

-Ruhr

As a note: When I am done with the RP...I am keeping the trawler.

ooc: ok, so here's my problem.

1) what international law are you going to use to justify seizing an unarmed trawler in international waters?

2) you haven't even RPed this. you're making some big assumptions, or you're being a rigid RPer which is very not fun for FFRP.

3) so you're basically doing this out of spite, which is not cool.

4) you're not keeping the trawler. you have no legal standing, no ic reason for it, it basically would be an act of piracy etc etc. very immature altogether.

ooc: ok, so here's my problem.

1) what international law are you going to use to justify seizing an unarmed trawler in international waters?

For the most part, I acknowledge this. However, International laws are not the same in NationStates so I am just going to assume that there is none because that is based on Real Life events. Blar!

2) you haven't even RPed this. you're making some big assumptions, or you're being a rigid RPer which is very not fun for FFRP.

You had marine biologists gathered together on a deck surrounded by guys with M4 Carbines, an air-to-ground-attack chopper, and a railgun nicely pointed to your damn boat. What are you going to do about Free-form RP?

Even if your guy ran down into the boat or even tried something, I would think i'd be a bit hard to try considering being unarmed, as you say. Blar!!!

3) so you're basically doing this out of spite, which is not cool.

I am sorry, you are inconveniencing me. Overall, aren't you happy that a nuclear war was adverted, even if there was no n00k?

4) you're not keeping the trawler. you have no legal standing, no ic reason for it, it basically would be an act of piracy etc etc. very immature altogether.

I have a very good damned IC reason for it. Suspicion of commiting acts of terrorism. Besides I DIDN'T DO IT, CHECK THE OTHER THREAD. THIS IS ALL JUST TO MAKE YOU FREAKIN' MAD AND I DID MAKE YOU FREAKIN MAD!

Proof:
ooc: ok, so here's my problem.

For the most part, I acknowledge this. However, International laws are not the same in NationStates so I am just going to assume that there is none because that is based on Real Life events. Blar!

if this is the case you should talk to your buddies in DA and the rest of the WBO/SATO, who had fun lecturing me on international waters laws etc etc months ago. i don't see a lot of credibility when your alliance, and yes you are being backed by your alliance, selectively enforces their rules. called a double standard that is.

You had marine biologists gathered together on a deck surrounded by guys with M4 Carbines, an air-to-ground-attack chopper, and a railgun nicely pointed to your damn boat. What are you going to do about Free-form RP?

that's like staring a war with someone and saying 'i'm going to win this war.' it's not fun, you've already decided that you're going to win. if that's they case why should i even bother to play? all i'll be doing is typing out my side so you can slap me around.

I have a very good damned IC reason for it. Suspicion of commiting acts of terrorism. Besides I DIDN'T DO IT, CHECK THE OTHER THREAD. THIS IS ALL JUST TO MAKE YOU FREAKIN' MAD AND I DID MAKE YOU FREAKIN MAD!

i'm not actually mad, i'm just bored. and if people think i have an attitude problem i'm not sure why they put up with you.

so when you decide you're ready to actually RP this, rather than make me fill in the blanks for your victory speech, come back. when you're ready to not be a doofus you know where i am. until them i'm ignoring these petulant posts of yours and moving my trawler home. this bit of reality can be changed when you're ready to play fair.

if this is the case you should talk to your buddies in DA and the rest of the WBO/SATO, who had fun lecturing me on international waters laws etc etc months ago. i don't see a lot of credibility when your alliance, and yes you are being backed by your alliance, selectively enforces their rules. called a double standard that is.

I recently joined WBO, and am just now applying to SATO. If you are asking me how I treat international law, I abide it 99% of the time. So what, I break it once...and that is to prevent war. I honestly see no problem with that.

that's like staring a war with someone and saying 'i'm going to win this war.' it's not fun, you've already decided that you're going to win. if that's they case why should i even bother to play? all i'll be doing is typing out my side so you can slap me around.

Yep, pretty much. You forgot making myself look and feel good though. :twisted:

so when you decide you're ready to actually RP this, rather than make me fill in the blanks for your victory speech, come back. when you're ready to not be a doofus you know where i am. until them i'm ignoring these petulant posts of yours and moving my trawler home. this bit of reality can be changed when you're ready to play fair.

I finished RPing it, and your trawler is home. Boo hoo. Shut up and explain why you had to bluff a nuclear device and start a war? What the hell were you thinking?

OOC: Ruhr, I note that this actually was legitimate by RL laws given the 'clear and present danger' provided by the n00ks. So you don't need to apologise.

OOC: Ruhr, I note that this actually was legitimate by RL laws given the 'clear and present danger' provided by the n00ks. So you don't need to apologise.

I held them at gunpoint, Knoot. And why not? I held them from their mollusk research.

OOC: Just getting back to this after a busy night. Hey, come on and admit it everyone, this is the most fun you've had in ages :lol:

Back ICly:

I wish to thank the spokesperson from Vega for confirming what we had always believed, indeed KNEW, that SATO, or at best certain elements within SATO, had approached The Reich with a plan of conquest. I am also thankful that we have managed to expose the duplicity of such a plan, and the likely treacherous nature of it - on SATOs part at least.

SATO may deny that they ever intended to attack us, but we would expect that anyway. Indeed, much of our plan was in response to the direct knowledge that SATO intended to attack us. We make no apologies.

As for Diablo_NL's call to arms. We always maintained that you wished to attack us, and if being made to look stupid is the best pretext you can find then I say QED. You always intended as much.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

That is not the act of a warmonger.

Your thinking is overly simple and you're logic is built upon a constructed strawman of possible courses of action available to WBO/SATO.


By all means, tell me which courses of action were available.

I mean, I'm only in the organization. I couldn't possibly know as much about what's going on behind the scenes as you. 8)

Please note that the WBO/SATO did not verify the intelligence.

No time. When you're dealing with a threat like that, you can't wait to be certain. Because if you're wrong, thousands of people are dead. If not millions.

On unverified intelligence they acted without hesitation, which is irresponsible. I suppose one might argue that the severity of the perceived threat justifies this irresponsibility, but I see it as the opposite. The greater the threat the more careful you must be.

And the force involved (which was, again, not a SATO force) was careful. They did not destroy the trawler -- an easier and certainly, for them, safer alternative. They boarded and investigated.

It is quite clear, from their internal discussions, that they intended to use the evidence seized on that trailer as a justification for war.

Yes, if there had been a nuclear device on board, it might very well have led to war. And if that had been the case, you damn well should have expected it.

I will note that there wasn't, and there is no war.

Please note that the CACE, having gained evidence of this WBO/SATO war effort (false as you may think it is, we think it's true, which returns us to a point re: perception) seek peace, not to use it as a justification for war.

Oh? Does that mean you'll now be signing the non-aggression pact they offered you... how long ago is it, now? I've lost track.

You also apply an absurdly simple rubrick to determining how the WBO/SATO could have acted.

Yes. It's called "common sense."

We have stated ad nauseum that they could have approached the trawler peacefully and asked permission to board rather than forced their way in.

And, bearing in mind that they had good reason to believe a nuclear weapon destined for Skargarden was on board that ship, why would they have done so? What you fail to grasp is that, in such a situation, time is of the essence. The situation you chose was one that, were it a real threat, could not be handled at leisure.

They did not, and though you seek to justify these actions you must confront the fact that a less violent, peace oriented method was available. It suits your argument, though, to deny this in order to bolster your own floundering case.

I haven't denied that it was available. I do, however, deny that it was logical or feasible, given the circumstances at the time. You seem to believe otherwise. So prove it.

Of course a nation will react when faced with a potential nuclear bombing. That reaction does not in any way indicate a desire to go to war.

You are obviously unfamiliar with SeOCC, our culture or our nation. SeOCC is actually Metro SeOCC, a strip 150x50km which contains 99.9% of all human habitation inside SeOCC, which is 250x100km roughly. Nuclear weapons, MOAB's, cruise missiles, in our nation these are all weapons that indiscriminately kill because of how densely packed our population is. A single battleship is a weapon of mass destruction to us, but we did not board, attack or harrass a single one of the huge fleet parked in Skargarden. We upped our security and prepared for the worse but did not act against them.

What does that have to do with anything? SATO did not threaten SeOCC, or any other CACE nation, with any of those. Nor with nonexistent versions of same. SeOCC's geography and population density are completely irrelevant here.

Consider this before you point fingers, consider the culture of the nation you accuse.

When it comes to nuclear threats, we are not cultural relativists.

A credible nuclear threat is pretty near the top on the list of things that could necessitate military action.

The threat was not, though, credible.

CACE nations appear to be the only ones who think not. Perhaps this should tell you something.

Please consult the map of Aperin (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE/index.php?showtopic=323) and notice that, though not shown on this map, southern SeOCC is bordered by a small strip of land on the east.


Right. I'll be sure to consult the map to notice something that's not on it.

Had there been an investigation, had the trawler been approached peacefully, this would not have happened.

And had there been a nuclear weapon, and had the trawler been approached peacefully, there might have been millions dead in Skargarden. Is that worth the risk of inconveniencing a few civilians who you knowingly put in harm's way? No question in my mind.

The WBO/SATO, with their highly competant intelligence agencies, would have found out it was a hoax. But they did not make this effort, and so the perceived credibility must be reconsidered.

If time were not an issue, you would be correct. Since the nature of the threat demanded swift action, however, this is not the case.

Fact: CACE admitted an intent to plant rumors of a nuclear device on the ship.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO to hear these rumors.

They were not rumors, they were disinformation. Please do not tell me you do not recognize disinformation as a legitmate and accepted tactic. See above point re: the credibility of these 'threats.'

Semantics. Though you're correct; calling it "rumor" does it a disservice, since that implies a greater uncertainty.

(This already constitutes a threat, by the by. But it gets better.)

No it does not. If I began randomly telegramming people that I heard your nation was planning nuclear strikes against their nations, would that be credible?

If I had posted stealth bombers near their nations' borders, and had intimated that those craft were carrying nuclear weapons, then it would certainly be cause for alarm on the parts of those nations. Particularly if my nation had a reputation as a terrorist-supporting state and had publically, on multiple occasions, called for the overthrow of those nations by whatever means were available.

No, and so the recipients would investigate. The WBO/SATO spy, though, was trusted, wrongly this time. Your inability to take the necessary steps to verify this information does not allow you to pretend the information was good.

1. My inability? Once again, I wasn't involved. "Consider this before you point fingers, consider the culture of the nation you accuse."

2. Time. If the recipients felt a nuclear attack was imminent, they would not merely "investigate" -- they would act to attempt to ensure their own safety. An inability to quickly verify information does justify acting as though the information were correct, when so much is at stake. We are not talking about a minor matter; we are talking about a potential nuclear war.

There was not threat.

There was. There was no danger of the threat being followed through, this time, but that does not negate the threat itself.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO forces to react to these rumors.

Indeed, we expected them to search the trawler and expose their spy. I, nor did anyone, expect them to come out with guns drawn. That possibility was seen as simply too absurd, to inflamatory. We were wrong.

If you truly didn't know what a dangerous game you were playing by initiating a mock nuclear strike, then I pity you.

But I still don't buy that you're that stupid. I think you thought you were being very clever, and that you're quite surprised to find non-SATO nations confirming what a dangerous, ill-considered idea such a bluff was, and that you're attempting to backpedal slightly to make it look less so.

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO forces to react violently to these rumors.

Utterly false. We expected a peaceful military respone, not Ruhr's stormtroopers. There is a difference, though you seem unable to discern it.

You received a peaceful military response. No guns firing. None of the civilians you put in danger dead. Just a board-and-search.

Conclusion II: CACE intentionally placed the civilians aboard the trawler in danger. CACE has, again, admitted to as much.

False. The civilians volunteered and we could not imagine there would be any danger.

Yeah, right. Because there's never any danger when you threaten a nuclear attack against a nation with whom your relations have been strained.

The trawler was in international waters and, again, had there been any obvservation or intelligence done it would have been obvious that there was nothing to fear from the trawler.

"Obvious"? How so? Short of a search, there was no way to be certain.

It seems our opinion of the WBO/SATO is higher than you give us credit for, since no one ever beleived they would shoot people not convicted of a crime who posed no threat to the boarding soldiers.

Then why do you believe they would invade Aperin? Your stance is not logically consistent. And you did believe they would invade:

Fact: CACE admitted that it expected SATO to seize upon these rumors as a casus belli, involving a large-scale invasion of Aperin.

True, but please stop the pointless latic words. No one is impressed.

Why would you think SATO would be willing to kill thousands (or more) in an invasion, but not a few dozen on a trawler?

Conclusion III: CACE intentionally placed its populace in danger by spreading these rumors.

False. Again, because the disinformation would lead not to war but WBO/SATO embarassment we considered the threat of invastion decreased with a successful operation of this kind.

News for you: nuclear weapons were armed and pointed your way in certain countries, as a direct result of your misinformation. (See? I used your word.) I'd call that a danger to your populace, even if you don't.

It is inconceiveable that any nation or alliance could justify an invasion based on disinformation and their political embarassment.

Hah. I see you're not familiar with the state of politics around here.

Regardless, you've succeeded in heightening tensions further without having anything concrete to show for it. I submit that your aim has misfired. If you'll forgive me for mixing metaphors.

Fact: SATO forces did not, in fact, react violently to these rumors. They did not open fire upon the trawler. In fact, SATO forces never even boarded the trawler. (Ruhr is a member of the WBO and NATO, but not SATO.)

You, perhaps, are not aware of the links between the WBO and SATO but we are not so blind. The two are allied, if not effectively one. A SATO ally, a WBO member acting for the WBO/SATO forces in the area, boarded the trailer. At the very least they were acting as an agent of SATO, and therefore represented SATO. The point is one of semantics and your petty attention to this is unimpressive.


Not so. Here's a couple hints for you:

A SATO member's policy does not represent SATO's policy.

A WBO member's policy does not represent WBO policy.

A SATO ally's policy definitely does not represent SATO's policy.

A WBO member's policy has absolutely nothing to do with SATO's policy, and vice versa.

The WBO's policy does not represent SATO's policy, and vice versa.

Conclusion IV: CACE's statements against SATO are, at best, misdirected.

It seems you are again mistaken, given how SATO nations have closed ranks. The de facto alliance between the WBO nations and SATO nations makes differentiation pointless, or rather, useless to anyone with an interest in cutting to the heart of the matter. Your use of this argument seems only there to obscure the indiscretions of your own allies by attempting to point out a differance of opinions regarding alliance structure.

Distinctions are hardly useless when honestly attempting to "[cut] to the heart of the matter." On the other hand, it's very useful to ignore distinctions when your interest is to muddle the matter, or to misdirect other observers' attention.

Fact: SATO forces did not seize upon the rumors to attack CACE members, nor did they invade Aperin, nor has any other force participating in the wargames done so.

True, as the CACE planned and predicted.

SATO didn't go to war when they could have; therefore, they're warmongers? I must've missed something here. 8)

Conclusion V: SATO was not, in fact, looking for an excuse to invade Aperin. If they had been, it would have happened.

False, please see posted statements. Especially see Diablo's and Knootoss' statements regarding invasion. Please notice the lack of official condemnation regarding those statements.

Please notice the use of past tense in my conclusion. SATO was not... looking for an excuse to invade Aperin.

While we do not ourselves call for invasion in the present, CACE's reckless employment of nuclear threats for no purpose greater than hoping to catch a single spy does indeed raise concerns. We can easily see how a more militaristic nation might choose to eliminate the chance that, in the future, such a threat might play out for real, by calling to depose the regime in question.

I will also point out that, to my knowledge, SATO still does not wish to invade Aperin, regardless of what individual member nations might contemplate.

If a CACE member were found to be plotting war against a WBO or SATO nation, in our name, you can be sure the outcry would be deafening. The only thing deafening here is an awkward silence.

Hmm? I hear plenty of outcry from CACE members.

Speaking for Ravenspire, not SATO or the WBO or anyone else, we just assume you're plotting war against us. You've made statements to that effect already, in theory; besides, it would be rather foolish not to. We also plan for war against you... and against anyone and everyone else. We've got an entire ministry basically devoted to it. We don't desire to ever use any of those plans, and we don't expect to ever need most of them, but we've got them anyway, just like every other nation (excepting the rare complete pacifists) with a modicum of intelligent leadership does.

Fact: CACE claims to have feared a SATO invasion, yet it executed a plan involving an apparent and credible nuclear strike on SATO, other forces participating in the wargames, and/or Skargarden.

This, I'm afraid, is not fact but interpretation. Again, the nuclear threat was in no way credible.

Again, it was. The only speculation involved, bearing in mind the information available at the time, was the choice of targets, which is covered by "and/or."

Fact: Had CACE not employed a rumor of an imminent attack on Skargarden and/or SATO and allied forces, the trawler in question would not have been boarded.

This cannot be fact because it cannot be proven, merely asserted.

You've never heard of an axiom, I take it?

Trust me, it's a fact. SATO had no interest in CACE in this circumstance, only in completing an exercise in Skargarden.

You believe the trawler would not have been boarded but we will never know. Frankly I agree, which is why we undertook a disinformation campaign.

Willful provocation through a supposed nuclear device and a supposed strike on Skargarden targets, yes. Which tends to contribute to proof of the following:

Conclusion VI: CACE is acting to provoke the very war it claims to want to avoid.

Your logic is horrible, you jump to huge conclusions with little actual evidence. Right now we are in the middle of a very tense situation and please refrain from these ludicrous and damagingly inflamatory statements as it makes both sides less likely to attempt a peaceful end. It is you, now, that acts irresponsibly.


We are not the ones who manipulated the situation in order to escalate tensions. Nor are we the ones who rejected non-aggression treaties on at least one occasion. Nor are we the ones who closed all communications, thereby ensuring that a diplomatic solution became all but impossible.

Sakura Kitsuki
Minister of Trivia

ic:
The Sultan regrets to confirm, officers inside his loyal army supplied this information to CACE. The leak will be plugged. They whom deny me have no honor.
The truth of the information is up to you to decide, the Sultan will not confirm or deny.

ooc:
SATO plotted with the reich to destroy CACE
So for RPG reasons I told CACE, well Anti SATO officers told CACE anyhow, thats the source-
SATO told matty
matty told me
I told CACE
CACE busted you


[the Sultan cant be seen to support SATO by saying its not true cos he'll get Junta'ed and in the same breath he cant support the traitors whom gave information to CACE]

We suspected this IC/OOC damn muslims........I mean....ummmm death to...ummmmmm yes...anyhow...

ic:
The Sultan regrets to confirm, officers inside his loyal army supplied this information to CACE. The leak will be plugged. They whom deny me have no honor.
The truth of the information is up to you to decide, the Sultan will not confirm or deny.


Whilst I recognise the difficulty this situation give to the Sultan, it is the contention of CACE that such a plot did exist. This, conmbined with the independent intelligence we received from withinin the WBO, is what let us to conclude, correctly in our opinion, that these "wargames" were merely a precursor to invasion.

However, if SATO and the WBO still deny that their organizations plotted such a war, will they at least concede that certain members sought to bring SATO into direct conflict with CACE? If this is the case, then might we expect an unequivocal declaration from SATO and the WBO that they have no hostile intent towards CACE, and that appopriate actions, to prevent the possibility of future hostilities being planned by rogue members, will be taken.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Of course the WBO denies plans for war.

Being a non-military alliance and all...

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to WBO

Of course the WBO denies plans for war.

Being a non-military alliance and all...

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to WBO

Can you please explain why Skargarden says it was initially approached by the [b]WBO[/i] then?

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Of course the WBO denies plans for war.

Being a non-military alliance and all...

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to WBO

Can you please explain why Skargarden says it was initially approached by the [b]WBO[/i] then?

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

OOC: I'll just take a wild guess that they were approached by a single nation and named the wrong organisation that nation was in...

*seconds that*

*seconds that*

OOCly I may be prepared to believe that as well. ICly it sure as hell leads to a great story though :lol:

Actually, Sea Orc (somebody from EDWD MoD smacks the Xikuangese Geography Liaison) *ahem*, SeOCC is on the map. It's just so small you can't see it except at full resolution, and you'd need rather a big monitor for that.
http://www.drnightshade.org.uk/images/CACE/skargardenseaorc.jpg

And the bit without a name is the DMZ. As you can see, not very far from SeOCC. Detonating a bomb there, therefore, would have been a trifle stupid, hmm?

Methinks while, according to Diablo, we CACE people should get biology lessons, the WBO/SATO would benefit from a crash course in Geography. Or possibly just doing their homework.

ooc: actually, error on the map, thanks for blowing it up X. the map should look like this (based on negotiations with Skar and SR after one of the many wars between those two).

http://cace.thegrimproject.net/tactical/skargardenseaork.jpg

and while i was on it i figured i might as well fill in a blank. the solid red line is the course the trawler was on while it was boarded, the dotted red lines show it's course (upper for leaving SeOCC, lower for returning). also, added FI for the record, it's the blue island newly added. it's good to be anal.

also, added FI for the record, it's the blue island newly added.

Thousands of Celdonian sailors will be eternally grateful. We've still got too many men in the navy, and they never ask for directions.

also, added FI for the record, it's the blue island newly added.

Thousands of Celdonian sailors will be eternally grateful. We've still got too many men in the navy, and they never ask for directions.

Perhaps now it is also the time for you to give that other little island a colour as we ICly posess it. That he is reconsidering doesn't matter, we are in de facto control and we will keep it. :mrgreen:

Of course the WBO denies plans for war.

Being a non-military alliance and all...

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to WBO

Can you please explain why Skargarden says it was initially approached by the WBO then?

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

A few possibilities.

1) Skargarden is/was mistaken and named the wrong organization.
2) Skargarden is/was confused (much like CACE seems to be) and didn't realise that the WBO and SATO are two different organizations.
3) Skargarden is/was lying, and trying to play WBO and/or SATO for fools.
4) A WBO and/or SATO nation misidentified itself, or purposefully mislead Skargarden.

The fact still remains that the WBO is a non-military alliance, which is why we joined it, and not SATO.

- Jessica Hawthorne, Hack Delegate to WBO

Kassat: Our government already proposed a non-agression pact to them. the CACE refused.

Given the way you act, a treaty with just one of you would be worthless.

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Pehaps you should combine this post with your previous post. :roll:

What is truely funny is the hypocrasy of SeOCC in his own openning address to the rest of the world. Of which I will delve into at a later time(in school now), however I will go forward and say this, okay SATO planned wargames, and have invasion plans for SeOCC, whats your point? We can have a plan for going out and invading the Antartic but unless we carry it out no one in the Antartic will complain. The plans mader were behind closed doors and were plans, I didnt realize it was against international law to plan ahead of time a potential course of action. Because if thats the case, well then the whole CACE is violating international law with their planned economies. Because planning ahead for the worst is wrong..and evil...oh give it a rest.

New York and New Jersey SATO Representative,
Ambassador-General Alex Murphey

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Pehaps you should combine this post with your previous post. :roll:

Why? The only treaty proposal I remember you making was your economic treaty proposal. I've no idea which one DA is talking about.

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Pehaps you should combine this post with your previous post. :roll:

Why? The only treaty proposal I remember you making was your economic treaty proposal. I've no idea which one DA is talking about.

When the wargames began and SeOCC began to spout his "oooh they are gonna invade" stuff we offered the CACE a non-agression pact to prove our good intentions. Needless to say he flatly refused.

You missed that?

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Pehaps you should combine this post with your previous post. :roll:

Why? The only treaty proposal I remember you making was your economic treaty proposal. I've no idea which one DA is talking about.

When the wargames began and SeOCC began to spout his "oooh they are gonna invade" stuff we offered the CACE a non-agression pact to prove our good intentions. Needless to say he flatly refused.

You missed that?

That was merely part of your plan to invade and catch us off guard, so ok, if that's the one you meant then we considered it worthless anyway.

But i repsonse to DA's assertion, I'll remind you what he said:


2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

That doesn't sound your offer to me.

When the wargames began and SeOCC began to spout his "oooh they are gonna invade" stuff we offered the CACE a non-agression pact to prove our good intentions. Needless to say he flatly refused.

you never sent us a treaty, you made a half hearted offer to Tanah Burung that looked a lot like, 'sign here or we invade.' i remember DA sending something ages and ages ago but i don't think it was an NAP.

whoa, syncronicity C.

What is truely funny is the hypocrasy of SeOCC in his own openning address to the rest of the world. Of which I will delve into at a later time(in school now), however I will go forward and say this, okay SATO planned wargames, and have invasion plans for SeOCC, whats your point? We can have a plan for going out and invading the Antartic but unless we carry it out no one in the Antartic will complain. The plans mader were behind closed doors and were plans, I didnt realize it was against international law to plan ahead of time a potential course of action. Because if thats the case, well then the whole CACE is violating international law with their planned economies. Because planning ahead for the worst is wrong..and evil...oh give it a rest.

New York and New Jersey SATO Representative,
Ambassador-General Alex Murphey

Now, of course, SATO did actually go ahead with the plan, by taking the first steps of it - the wargames.

When the wargames began and SeOCC began to spout his "oooh they are gonna invade" stuff we offered the CACE a non-agression pact to prove our good intentions. Needless to say he flatly refused.

you never sent us a treaty, you made a half hearted offer to Tanah Burung that looked a lot like, 'sign here or we invade.' i remember DA sending something ages and ages ago but i don't think it was an NAP.

And you did not sign and ... yet *gasp* we did not invade! :P

Any Nation has the right to hold Wargames anywhere it is invited to by the Government of the Country.

That the SATO people where invited to hold said wargames is beyond doubt, therefore you are attempting to dictate the Foreign Policy of a Soverign State, that has signed no Alliances with you forbidding them from making such an invitation.

You act as through you should be the rulers of Skargarden... I wonder if that what truely scares the CACE alliance that Skargarden is a free nation?

And you did not sign and ... yet *gasp* we did not invade!

because we kind of stopped you. ah...

Any Nation has the right to hold Wargames anywhere it is invited to by the Government of the Country.


once again, there is a difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do, though in typical fashion, the liberals here are completely incapable or unwilling to understand this. i have the right to leave someone dying in the street, but it is not right. figure it out people.

please allow me to summarise this thread quickly. a picture says more then a thousand words:

http://www.sovmusic.ru/jpg/marsh3.jpg

I wonder if that what truely scares the CACE alliance that Skargarden is a free nation?

We do not fear Skargarden, we fear SATO and their *proven* plans of war. We want no war, we want peace and stability in the region. That's why we've tried to create a peace treaty between Skargarden and Svea Riga, and, of course, we have taken action regarding the wargames.

please allow me to summarise this thread quickly. a picture says more then a thousand words:

http://www.sovmusic.ru/jpg/marsh3.jpg

Ah, as usual you fail to understand that CACE is not a socialist nor communist organization. Nice pic, though.

once again, there is a difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do, though in typical fashion, the liberals here are completely incapable or unwilling to understand this. i have the right to leave someone dying in the street, but it is not right. figure it out people.

No rather you would spread the fear of Nuclear war... was this 'Right to Do'?

Answer that simple question was spreading to the World and beyond the fear of Nuclear warfare 'Right to do' in your view. was raising, even as a Bluff, the specture of nuclear warfare, the Moral action the right action. As you so beutifully put it, nations have Moral obligations... Or is anything Moral in your cause?

Farseer Council

Any Nation has the right to hold Wargames anywhere it is invited to by the Government of the Country.


once again, there is a difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do, though in typical fashion, the liberals here are completely incapable or unwilling to understand this. i have the right to leave someone dying in the street, but it is not right. figure it out people.

So wargames are somehow 'wrong'? When you host elaborate measures to flush out a spy involving nuclear weapons, that's 'right', but conventional wargames are 'wrong'? Moreover, comparing wargames to leaving someone dead on the street is clearly a poisoning the well fallacy.

Ah, as usual you fail to understand that CACE is not a socialist nor communist organization. Nice pic, though.

Then tell me have you any governments that are neither Socialist or Communist, yet still manage to be anti-Capitalist within the Anti-Capitalism alliance?

Sure. SeOCC, for instance, is neither socialist nor communist but rather a sort of corporate technocracy. There are some anarchists/anarcho-syndicalists, too.

*sigh*

Look, we've been over this.

Of course Skargarden is perfectly within their rights to hold wargames. However, given the incredibly delicate political climate between SATO and the CACE, of which member nations the continent on which Skargarden is situated is primarily comprised, it was in incredibly bad political form-- no, it was inept to the point of stupidity-- for anyone genuinely wanting a completely peaceful, not at all tense, perfectly fine wargame to hold it there. Why could it not have been held near Knootoss? Why could it not have been moved to Roania, when they offered, in the interests of peace? Why is it so paranoid for us to think that this might, just might, possibly have been a front for a planned invasion?

As it happens, we were right. It was a front for a planned invasion. So stop talking about violations of international law. We acted, internally, through the medium of politicking, to prevent an invasion we foresaw.

That is all.

And you did not sign and ... yet *gasp* we did not invade!

because we kind of stopped you. ah...

Stopped us how? By exposing a spy? By nearly bringing about nuclear wargare? :roll: You think we would not "invade" without acces to the White Room? :?

Lets suppose for a moment that we had plans to invade. We would then have made this "plan" before you began your little "expose the spy" plot. Right?

Now, the n00klear brinkmanship would have provided us with a casus belli. Do you then presuppose that that was our "planned reason"? Then how come we did not know of this before when we sent the troops in the first place hmmm?

Point is: we would have invaded anyway then at some point, "nuke" or not. But here it gets interesting. After the CACE exposed a spy suddenly the threat of invasion went away according to you...

A small timetable:

-Knootoss signs a military pact with Skargarden, begins exercises. You know of the spy in the CACE and begin to plan your "Sailune" plot.
-SeOCC begins building up forces, evacuating civilians and massively mobilising the CACE and ACA for war. Production switches to weapons etc etc. supposedly because of the wargames
-SeOCC nearly provokes war with the Trawler incident.
-SATO does NOT declare war.
-SeOCC claims 'the danger is over' and begins demobilising. with the same wargames that the mobilisation was for still going on.

My conclusion: your 'embarrasement' reasoning is flawed. It was you who tried to provoke war but you failed because of our measured response. And with your little plot failed you demobilise because you KNOW that the SATO does not invade without a damned good reason.

So wargames are somehow 'wrong'? When you host elaborate measures to flush out a spy involving nuclear weapons, that's 'right', but conventional wargames are 'wrong'? Moreover, comparing wargames to leaving someone dead on the street is clearly a poisoning the well fallacy.

Indeed we apologise for not spotting the Fallacy that Wargames are wrong for what it is.

Wargames are a Legitimate and neccersary part of Governmental operations and in keeping a fully prepared and ready Military for any situation. For it is easy to sit and say, XYZ happens in an office somewhere, but Wargames provide the closest possible simulation to the real tricks of War, short of actual War, a nation that does not conduct such operations fails in it's duties to it's people.

So again what claim to have the right to instruct Skargarden on it's Foreign Policy do you have?
Farseer Council

*sigh*

Look, we've been over this.

Of course Skargarden is perfectly within their rights to hold wargames. However, given the incredibly delicate political climate between SATO and the CACE, of which member nations the continent on which Skargarden is situated is primarily comprised, it was in incredibly bad political form-- no, it was inept to the point of stupidity-- for anyone genuinely wanting a completely peaceful, not at all tense, perfectly fine wargame to hold it there. Why could it not have been held near Knootoss? Why could it not have been moved to Roania, when they offered, in the interests of peace? Why is it so paranoid for us to think that this might, just might, possibly have been a front for a planned invasion?

As it happens, we were right. It was a front for a planned invasion. So stop talking about violations of international law. We acted, internally, through the medium of politicking, to prevent an invasion we foresaw.

That is all.

And then again SIGH what then do you call your Game of Nuclear Brinkmanship, a good little Political Manouver or the most badly calculated operation in this entire affair. At worst SATO is guilty of a little Display, making a point of informing you, they have Skargarden's Back should you intend on pressuring them again.

At Best you Badly miscalculated, and at worst Played with Fire and where extremly Fortunate not to start the end times....

For a few days for no descernable reason you had the world on the brink of extinction yet have the Gall to claim SATO was being foolish in holding Wargames!!

Let me ask you a question is a game played with potential Nuclear consquences Better than a wargame, held in a nation of it's own free will.

Point One: the evidence that SATO planned to invade us is proven. We acted according to that evidence.

Point Two: Where were you all when Seocc, having been threatened with a nuclear device, asked Der Angst for aid in the investigation only to receive a "F--- OFF" in reply.

The WBO nor SATO cared about the possibility of Seocc being attacked witha nuclear weapon then and the possible repercussions of that incident. Why the moral outrage now?

The following is a transcript of a teletype message from the Barvaria-Studenland Agency of Central Intelligence to the President of Barvaria-Studenland:
*****FROM: ACI HQ*****
*****TO: PRESIDENT-URGENT*****
*****SUBJECT: SEATO V. CACE WAR PLANNED*****
*****BEGIN REPORT*****
SEATO V. CACE WAR WAS PLANNED. EVIDENCE OF ESPIONAGE PRESENT. DESTROY ALL FILES ON SEATO-CACE NOW. DENY ALL INVOLVEMENT.
****END MESSAGE*****

The WBO nor SATO cared about the possibility of Seocc being attacked witha nuclear weapon then and the possible repercussions of that incident. Why the moral outrage now?

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque.

Moreover, as an interested third party, I find that though both the actions of CACE and SATO were foolish at best, trying to characterize one as 'wrong' and the other as 'right', as CACE seems to be doing, is extremely hypocritical. REgardless for any possible plans of invasion, the war games and spy games are either equally acceptable or contemptible.

Point One: the evidence that SATO planned to invade us is proven. We acted according to that evidence.

Point Two: Where were you all when Seocc, having been threatened with a nuclear device, asked Der Angst for aid in the investigation only to receive a "F--- OFF" in reply.

Since SATO had no means of knowing in advance that their was no Nuclear device, andwhere the target of a Misinformation campaign that said that their was a Nuclear device aimed at them, the Threat was made. The Existence or lack there of of the device is infact irrelvant, the Information given out delibatly said their was, this is Nuclear Brinkmanship of the worst sort. A Threat can be an idle threat, yet still be a threat, you PLAYED GAMES with the threat of nuclear War. ANY ATTEMPT to claim that the fact, unknown to any but a small cartel, that their was no nuclear Bomb is in fact irrelvant.

That War Plans existed is irrelvent, I am sure if the Council asked the Exarchs they could produce War Plans aimed at the nations of Menelmacar, Sunset, Scolopendra, and others, in the unlikely, neigh almost impossible event, that they where needed.


The WBO nor SATO cared about the possibility of Seocc being attacked witha nuclear weapon then and the possible repercussions of that incident. Why the moral outrage now?

Was either of these organisations responsible for planning the event in question? Also, in anycase, this is irrelevant we are not members of the SATO alliance, and only loose members of the WBO, possibly no longer even members. So their past actions are irrelevant when it comes to the view point of the Farseer Council.

...
...

We've been over that as well.

But, all in ll, I think it worked rather well.

Was either of these organisations responsible for planning the event in question? Also, in anycase, this is irrelevant we are not members of the SATO alliance, and only loose members of the WBO, possibly no longer even members. So their past actions are irrelevant when it comes to the view point of the Farseer Council.

Ah, so nuclear terrorism is only grave gambling, etc. etc., if it accepts your own organisation? What was that about hypocritical acts again?

Was either of these organisations responsible for planning the event in question? Also, in anycase, this is irrelevant we are not members of the SATO alliance, and only loose members of the WBO, possibly no longer even members. So their past actions are irrelevant when it comes to the view point of the Farseer Council.

Ah, so nuclear terrorism is only grave gambling, etc. etc., if it affects your own organisation? What was that about hypocritical acts again?

That War Plans existed is irrelvent, I am sure if the Council asked the Exarchs they could produce War Plans aimed at the nations of Menelmacar, Sunset, Scolopendra

But we LOVE Scolo! I am telling!!!

-Childish Ruhr

Erm no we where saying that we cannot comment on past actions of SATO, or the WBO as we do not know of them, and it's rpevious views on such matters are not things of our concern, or that we need answer for. Being as how we are not a member of SATO and a VERY Loose member of the WBO, In fact the main reason we joined the WBO was for a matter that was not linked to busisness, when that matter was finished our interest became less to a degree that we do not join in any internal debates of the organisation.

In short the council could not comment on actions it does not know about.
We are seers but we have our limits, so many futures and present actions to examine only so much time.

Farseer Council

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Private message to the Ministry of Politics, SeOCC

Our two nations, as well as the organisations we are member of, and also we two as individuals, have had our differences in the past. I`m sure some of these differences will continue in the future.
But it mustn`t be all of them.
The general tone in the relationship between the WBO and the CACE is way to aggressive to be healthy. The accusions we put on each other are unacceptable.
We need to calm down, nobody wants a direct conflict, i presume.
Therefore, we would like to offer you a non- aggression treaty between the CACE and the WBO.
Of course, we can negotiate about it, but i believe the general points mentioned in the dokument as i worked it out, are acceptable.

---

Non- Aggression Treaty between the CACE and the WBO

1. The CACE and the WBO in general as well as their memebrs and associated nations in particular obligate themselve to abstain from any kind of warfare* from the moment on this treaty is signed.

2. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations agree to work out differences peacefully, without using force, may it military economically or electronically.

3. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations are obligated to work for peace and stability in and between both organisations

4. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations, strictly abstain from using any kind of force, except diplomatically force, in conflicts between them.
* That means military, economically and electronically warfare. warfare = offensive acts that want to destroy something the opponent has, e.g. currency value, buildings, data. Defence measures are NOT considered warfare. As an example: It is not forbidden to develop programs that may destroy the informational structure of a nation, it is not forbidden to build bombs, and it is not forbitten to close it`s own amrkets against foreign imports and or influence, but is is forbidden to attack the other sides informational infrastructure, to bomb them or to, lets say, actively destroy their markets e.g. via currency manipulation or any other kind of DESTRUCTIVE economical actions

---

We have already begun discussing this treaty within the WBO, and would welcome it, if the CACE, which should be devoted to peace, decides to to the same.

Mr. Morden adn associates, foreign minister of Der Angst
Aka Hoshi Rezo, President of Der Angst

As can be seen by the names involved (The President died quite some time ago in Reichskamphen), pretty old.

ASs said before, you refused to sign, because you feared you would be unable to spread the disease of anticapitalism throughout the world.

Now, you suffer from said decision. Too bad, isn`t it?

~ Ministry for international mockery and truth, DA

Ahh, that treaty.

We'll, you'll have to forgive my confusion. Maybe I can explain it by reproducing the treaty again.


Non- Aggression Treaty between the CACE and the WBO

1. The CACE and the WBO in general as well as their memebrs and associated nations in particular obligate themselve to abstain from any kind of warfare* from the moment on this treaty is signed.

2. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations agree to work out differences peacefully, without using force, may it military economically or electronically.

3. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations are obligated to work for peace and stability in and between both organisations

4. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations, strictly abstain from using any kind of force, except diplomatically force, in conflicts between them.
* That means military, economically and electronically warfare. warfare = offensive acts that want to destroy something the opponent has, e.g. currency value, buildings, data. Defence measures are NOT considered warfare. As an example: It is not forbidden to develop programs that may destroy the informational structure of a nation, it is not forbidden to build bombs, and it is not forbitten to close it`s own amrkets against foreign imports and or influence, but is is forbidden to attack the other sides informational infrastructure, to bomb them or to, lets say, actively destroy their markets e.g. via currency manipulation or any other kind of DESTRUCTIVE economical actions



Maybe you can see why I got confused. Now I always thought you people said the WBO and SATO were not the same organisation. And here we are in a showdown with SATO and being called to task for not signing a treaty with the WBO. Strange, isn't it?

Or...could it be...ahh, that must be it...

for all intents and purposes the WBO and SATO are the same organisation

Thanks for finally confirming what we always maintained.


And foe the record, the last traety talks between SATO and CACE took place between myself and Lavenrunz. Lavenrunz suggested we come to an agreement during the Jigoku Civil War, and I, on behalf of CACE, proposed a trreaty. We got no reply. So it's SATO that refused to sign a treaty, not CACE.

Ahh, that treaty.

We'll, you'll have to forgive my confusion. Maybe I can explain it by reproducing the treaty again.


Non- Aggression Treaty between the CACE and the WBO

1. The CACE and the WBO in general as well as their memebrs and associated nations in particular obligate themselve to abstain from any kind of warfare* from the moment on this treaty is signed.

2. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations agree to work out differences peacefully, without using force, may it military economically or electronically.

3. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations are obligated to work for peace and stability in and between both organisations

4. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations, strictly abstain from using any kind of force, except diplomatically force, in conflicts between them.
* That means military, economically and electronically warfare. warfare = offensive acts that want to destroy something the opponent has, e.g. currency value, buildings, data. Defence measures are NOT considered warfare. As an example: It is not forbidden to develop programs that may destroy the informational structure of a nation, it is not forbidden to build bombs, and it is not forbitten to close it`s own amrkets against foreign imports and or influence, but is is forbidden to attack the other sides informational infrastructure, to bomb them or to, lets say, actively destroy their markets e.g. via currency manipulation or any other kind of DESTRUCTIVE economical actions



Maybe you can see why I got confused. Now I always thought you people said the WBO and SATO were not the same organisation. And here we are in a showdown with SATO and being called to task for not signing a treaty with the WBO. Strange, isn't it?

Or...could it be...ahh, that must be it...

for all intents and purposes the WBO and SATO are the same organisation

Thanks for finally confirming what we always maintained.


And foe the record, the last traety talks between SATO and CACE took place between myself and Lavenrunz. Lavenrunz suggested we come to an agreement during the Jigoku Civil War, and I, on behalf of CACE, proposed a trreaty. We got no reply. So it's SATO that refused to sign a treaty, not CACE.


Uhm... WBO and SATO are not the same organization.

But they have most members that are in both organizations.

That is why it is stated WBO/SATO.

To make it clear that the members in SATO and in WBO will not just hide behind that ONLY SATO is forbidden to attack and will launch an attack from the WBO perspective. :wink:

As an ademndum to my previous reply:


Now, you suffer from said decision. Too bad, isn`t it?


What sort of lazy thinking leads SATO to believe that it is perfectly acceptable to instill conflict simply because no treaty exists. Are you so vaccuous in your thinking that it is beyond you to actually think "maybe conflict does not have to be the natural order of things"?

It appears that your view of treaty negotiations appears to be "sign this treaty or consider yourself fair game".



~ Ministry for international mockery and truth, DA


Fortunately, I love irony. I was beginning to think you wouldn't take the bait, especially after Knootoss started playing with it.


Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Now, you suffer from said decision. Too bad, isn`t it?

in truth nobody ever forgot, we were just hoping you'd bring it up so we could point out that it was a MILITARY non-aggression pact with the WBO, who keeps swearing they're non-military. hmmm.

and for the record, to those out there listening, we turned this down for several reasons. the most important was that the terms are vage and ovebroad: economic warfare is a term coined by anti-capitalists but used here to prevent us from manipulating markets. of course the Kists would still be allowed to manipulate, force open and exploit markets, so clearly it's an unbalanced treaty.

it's also worth noting that we did respond with a counter offer, TGed to Lavenrunz by Celdoinia:

Empress Joanna,

My dear friend, as ever, your skills as a diplomat are beyond compare, and I welcome greatly your contribution to the debate.

I'm afraid, however, that mistrust of Menelmacar foreign policy is running at an all time high in Celdonia and many factions within the country firmly believe it is their intent to provoke a military response from us. Given their insistence in involving themselves in the Jigoku crisis, it's a difficult charge to deny. Whether this is Siri's intention, we can only speculate.

Despite this, I believe the situation can still be salvaged, and we should never let the ideological differences that seperate us lead to military conflict against one another. I would hope that the relationship Lavenrunz and Celdonia have managed to maintain can act as a positive influence on relations between other CACE and SATO nations.

However, there is clearly much mistrust to be found on both sides of this divide, so we should not underestimate the obstacles we face. I agree with your suggestion that a line is drawn, and that, hopefully, we can avoid needless conflict.

We therefore propose that we come to an initial agreement that no member of either group, CACE or SATO, shall intervene militarily in the internal affairs of any member of the other organization. Declaring recognition of a breakaway state does not void this agreement. This obviously applies to internal uprisings - of any nature - and would apply directly to the current situation in Jigoku. It would apply equally to any future uprisings, socialist or otherwise, within any SATO member state.

I recognise that this proposal initially favours CACE, but as it is one of our members currently experiencing internal problems it is inevitable that it will do so at this time. We would, however, hope that it may prevent future conflicts that could escalate out of control. Something I'm sure none of us wish to see happen.

I shall leave you to consider the proposal, and look forward to your response.

Your friend,
President of Celdonia.


so actually the ball was left firmly in your court, since we were prepared to talk military NAP, and more importantly, military NAP with SATO. hmm...

Uhm... WBO and SATO are not the same organization.

But they have most members that are in both organizations.

That is why it is stated WBO/SATO.



I am becoming tired of having to explain why two organisations with a common membership base (even if it not exclusively common) will share common objectives. The WBO and SATO are simply the two faces of the same coin.

Besides, this matter is now settled. Der Angst has spoken of SATO in the context of a WBO treaty, refering to we". There is no dispute in this matter any more.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

damn it, C, syncronicity again. whoa.

damn it, C, syncronicity again. whoa.

Must be what happens when we're both sitting waiting to pounce :wink:

Uhm... WBO and SATO are not the same organization.

But they have most members that are in both organizations.

That is why it is stated WBO/SATO.



I am becoming tired of having to explain why two organisations with a common membership base (even if it not exclusively common) will share common objectives. The WBO and SATO are simply the two faces of the same coin.

Besides, this matter is now settled. Der Angst has spoken of SATO in the context of a WBO treaty, refering to we". There is no dispute in this matter any more.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Good. Then count CENNA to the SATO/WBO conglomerate.

Oh! Wait! We have 3 SATO members in the SFN.

Count us in, too :D

~Random Taraskovyan Citizen in the streets of Vigvar.

Good. Then count CENNA to the SATO/WBO conglomerate.

ooc: effectively, yeah, might as well. if a WBO nation goes to war chances are SATO goes to war which mean the elfy boys in CENNA go to war, at the same time Ruhr drags NATO into war etc etc.

seriously, there are so many inter-alliance intersections its like a nutty venn diagram. if one nation gets attacked by another 10% of the NS forums goes to war, and god damned if some of them don't even know what's going on. seriously, you've probably already got fundamental conflict of interests in there. not that realism is important here.

Good. Then count CENNA to the SATO/WBO conglomerate.

ooc: effectively, yeah, might as well. if a WBO nation goes to war chances are SATO goes to war which mean the elfy boys in CENNA go to war, at the same time Ruhr drags NATO into war etc etc.

seriously, there are so many inter-alliance intersections its like a nutty venn diagram. if one nation gets attacked by another 10% of the NS forums goes to war, and god damned if some of them don't even know what's going on. seriously, you've probably already got fundamental conflict of interests in there. not that realism is important here.

Like this didn't happen IRL in World War One?

Like this didn't happen IRL in World War One?

well i sort of figured we would have learnt from WWI by now.

Like this didn't happen IRL in World War One?

well i sort of figured we would have learnt from WWI by now.

War never changes ;)

War never changes.

about this you are wrong: the paradigm of 1900 is totally differant than the paradigm of modern capitalism. not that reality factors into how people here run their governments... and i've managed to hijack our own thread!

*Notes the fact that CACE does only reiterate it´s claims of SATO- evilness, ooc- 'unrealistic stuff' (Yeah, as if even ONE of their nations is realistic), instead of perhaps countering the (ic) arguments of their counterparts*

Well, at least this is realistic, reminds me of USSR 'diplomacy'...

It just makes me wonder how people can fall for it.

~ semi- ic statement of the ministry for ooc/ic entanglement of DA, tired of the endless CACE accusions and their inability to address even ONE point of SATO`s claims regarding CACE...

*Notes the fact that CACE does only reiterate it´s claims of SATO- evilness, ooc- 'unrealistic stuff' (Yeah, as if even ONE of their nations is realistic), instead of perhaps countering the (ic) arguments of their counterparts*

Well, at least this is realistic, reminds me of USSR 'diplomacy'...

It just makes me wonder how people can fall for it.

~ semi- ic statement of the ministry for ooc/ic entanglement of DA, tired of the endless CACE accusions and their inability to address even ONE point of SATO`s claims regarding CACE...


Don't deflect the argument. I deliberately set you up and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Anyway, there's been so much argument and counter argument I can hardly remember what SATO's claims are. (That's a real can't remember BTW :wink: ).

ooc: You missed siri`s thread, then?

(And you might note that she posted the screenshots before you made the infiltration public. Should make clear that we accepted discovery due to the considerable high amount of CACE- aggression evidence we have)

ooc: You missed siri`s thread, then?

(And you might note that she posted the screenshots before you made the infiltration public. Should make clear that we accepted discovery due to the considerable high amount of CACE- aggression evidence we have)

Damn, why didn't we think to reveal the plan before you took the bait?

I'm sure there was a reason.

Ahh, that treaty.

We'll, you'll have to forgive my confusion. Maybe I can explain it by reproducing the treaty again.


Non- Aggression Treaty between the CACE and the WBO

1. The CACE and the WBO in general as well as their memebrs and associated nations in particular obligate themselve to abstain from any kind of warfare* from the moment on this treaty is signed.

2. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations agree to work out differences peacefully, without using force, may it military economically or electronically.

3. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations are obligated to work for peace and stability in and between both organisations

4. The CACE and the WBO, as well as their member nations, strictly abstain from using any kind of force, except diplomatically force, in conflicts between them.
* That means military, economically and electronically warfare. warfare = offensive acts that want to destroy something the opponent has, e.g. currency value, buildings, data. Defence measures are NOT considered warfare. As an example: It is not forbidden to develop programs that may destroy the informational structure of a nation, it is not forbidden to build bombs, and it is not forbitten to close it`s own amrkets against foreign imports and or influence, but is is forbidden to attack the other sides informational infrastructure, to bomb them or to, lets say, actively destroy their markets e.g. via currency manipulation or any other kind of DESTRUCTIVE economical actions



Maybe you can see why I got confused. Now I always thought you people said the WBO and SATO were not the same organisation. And here we are in a showdown with SATO and being called to task for not signing a treaty with the WBO. Strange, isn't it?

Or...could it be...ahh, that must be it...

for all intents and purposes the WBO and SATO are the same organisation

Thanks for finally confirming what we always maintained.


And foe the record, the last traety talks between SATO and CACE took place between myself and Lavenrunz. Lavenrunz suggested we come to an agreement during the Jigoku Civil War, and I, on behalf of CACE, proposed a trreaty. We got no reply. So it's SATO that refused to sign a treaty, not CACE.


Uhm... WBO and SATO are not the same organization.

But they have most members that are in both organizations.

That is why it is stated WBO/SATO.

To make it clear that the members in SATO and in WBO will not just hide behind that ONLY SATO is forbidden to attack and will launch an attack from the WBO perspective. :wink:

Not in the above referenced teaty. The treaty makes reference only to the WBO, not to SATO. Now, if you want to insist that every time someone refers to the WBO they refer to the 'stated' WBO/SATO, and, if, conversely that all references to SATO refer to the 'stated' WBO/SATO, well... then... they're the same thing, by simple logical entailment.

~ semi- ic statement of the ministry for ooc/ic entanglement of DA, tired of the endless CACE accusions and their inability to address even ONE point of SATO`s claims regarding CACE...

continuing not being polite:

you're an idiot. for one, i answered every one of your accussations and you just went, 'no, M's still right.' good work.

for two, your logic is what we call arbitrary. you cannot actually show where SeOCC funded VA activities. all you have is us giving them a CONDITIONAL pardon (to be explained in an ic post later tonight when i type up the big party), which i noted is acceptable for states to do and in no way endorses terrorism.

you take two facts and then draw a conclusion when there is another equally likely conclusion. you then ignore the evidence that supports conclusions you don't like and keep on trucking, keeping that invincible ignorance while i offer explanations. you then say i have given no explanations when i have, on the first page of M's thread i believe, my first ic post re: this whole mess.

you then REFUSE to address my explanations and continue to push your original argument WHICH I HAVE ALREADY ADDRESSED.

i answered the VA thing. i answered the currency thing. hell, you guys were a million miles off base with the ACEPB thing considering how M treated Socialist Menelmacar.

the fact is you've got nothing. NOTHING. your logic is weak, your conclusions are arbitrary, your gray matter is clearly unexercised and in a state of extreme atrophy. you're boring, not interesting, uncreative nad a bit of a pig. that is all.

~ semi- ic statement of the ministry for ooc/ic entanglement of DA, tired of the endless CACE accusions and their inability to address even ONE point of SATO`s claims regarding CACE...

continuing not being polite:

you're an idiot. for one, i answered every one of your accussations and you just went, 'no, M's still right.' good work.

for two, your logic is what we call arbitrary. you cannot actually show where SeOCC funded VA activities. all you have is us giving them a CONDITIONAL pardon (to be explained in an ic post later tonight when i type up the big party), which i noted is acceptable for states to do and in no way endorses terrorism.

you take two facts and then draw a conclusion when there is another equally likely conclusion. you then ignore the evidence that supports conclusions you don't like and keep on trucking, keeping that invincible ignorance while i offer explanations. you then say i have given no explanations when i have, on the first page of M's thread i believe, my first ic post re: this whole mess.

you then REFUSE to address my explanations and continue to push your original argument WHICH I HAVE ALREADY ADDRESSED.

i answered the VA thing. i answered the currency thing. hell, you guys were a million miles off base with the ACEPB thing considering how M treated Socialist Menelmacar.

the fact is you've got nothing. NOTHING. your logic is weak, your conclusions are arbitrary, your gray matter is clearly unexercised and in a state of extreme atrophy. you're boring, not interesting, uncreative nad a bit of a pig. that is all.

I know you love me. Tomorrow evening, same time as always?

I know you love me. Tomorrow evening, same time as always?

and in defense of his crappy logic he offers, in lieu of an explanation or rational, this. i rest my case, ladies and gentlemen. and if case you don't know, you don't make me mad, just very disappointed in humanity. toodles.

Not in the above referenced teaty. The treaty makes reference only to the WBO, not to SATO. Now, if you want to insist that every time someone refers to the WBO they refer to the 'stated' WBO/SATO, and, if, conversely that all references to SATO refer to the 'stated' WBO/SATO, well... then... they're the same thing, by simple logical entailment.

Yes! If the fact that nations are members of both organizations makes it the same thing, then count the CENNA and SFN into the WBO/SATO conglomerate :D

~ Same Random Taraskovyan citizen still not wanting to give the microphone back to the reporter in the streets of Vigvar.

Not in the above referenced teaty. The treaty makes reference only to the WBO, not to SATO. Now, if you want to insist that every time someone refers to the WBO they refer to the 'stated' WBO/SATO, and, if, conversely that all references to SATO refer to the 'stated' WBO/SATO, well... then... they're the same thing, by simple logical entailment.

Yes! If the fact that nations are members of both organizations makes it the same thing, then count the CENNA and SFN into the WBO/SATO conglomerate :D

~ Same Random Taraskovyan citizen still not wanting to give the microphone back to the reporter in the streets of Vigvar.

No, it's a matter of linguistic coreference, not a matter of membership. My point was that, if every time you say WBO you mean WBO/SATO, and if every time you say SATO you mean WBO/SATO, then the two terms are coreferential, much the same way that every time I say "The authour of The Open Society and Its Enemies" I mean Karl Popper, because I believe that Karl Popper is identical to the author of The Open Society and Its Enemies (he is; qualified for pedanticism's sake). In proper philosophyspeak, they might not have the same intension, but they have the same extension.

In point of fact, though, in the case of the WBO/SATO, it's false. For puposes of defining identity, let us take it that the WBO shall be defined as 'the organisation containing members 1, 2, 3...n', and SATO shall be similarly defined. I cannot confirm for myself whether or not the member lists of both organisations are identical, because the posted member list of the WBO is wrong in at least one particular (GMC Military Arms is still on it, or was last I looked, while they've resigned) and I can't find a member list for SATO, but I have been told by some nations that they are members of one but ot the other, and I have no reason not to believe them. Thus, the WBO and SATO are not mereologically identical.

Thus the the only way you could make the claim that in the treaty presented by Der Angst, a treaty with SATO was implied, would be to say that for the purposes of that document, it is understood that references to WBO refer to WBO/SATO. However, since that was not explicitly stated in the document and there is no other indication that such an understanding should obtain, I take it that the treaty refers to the WBO and the WBO only.

OOC: To put this to rest, is the WTO also referred to as NATO simply because some nations hold join membership?No?Thought so. There are people in the WBO who are not part of SATO and vice versa. The WBO has no military arm, SATO is a completely different organization. Both organizations last time I checked had different leaders. Now if every member of SATO was in the WBO and it applied the otherway as well then okay it can be concluded that the WBO and SATO are pretty much the same. But that is not the case.

OOC: To put this to rest, is the WTO also referred to as NATO simply because some nations hold join membership?No?Thought so.

no one claims that the WTO and NATO have the same ideological goals. the WBO and SATO, though, clearly have ENTANGLED ideologies, leading to a blurring of the lines beyond repair. for instance: the EOTED claims they are not capitalist, but will spring to defend capitalists if a WBO nation is threatened. aroo?

The WBO has no military arm, SATO is a completely different organization.

well you obviously missed the original meeting where the WBO talked about having a military arm and decided against it because they intended to use SATO to defend themselves.

not everyone has to be in the other to create entanglement; our point is not that they are 100% identical, but that for all de facto purposes, SATO serves as the enforcement arm of WBO hegemony. that's all. at least that's all i think, dunno about others.

OOC: To put this to rest, is the WTO also referred to as NATO simply because some nations hold join membership?No?Thought so.

no one claims that the WTO and NATO have the same ideological goals. the WBO and SATO, though, clearly have ENTANGLED ideologies, leading to a blurring of the lines beyond repair. for instance: the EOTED claims they are not capitalist, but will spring to defend capitalists if a WBO nation is threatened. aroo?

[OOC: EOTED only defends WBO members due to obligation and honour. It has nothing to do with ideology. In fact, EOTED places zero importance on ideology.]

[OOC: EOTED only defends WBO members due to obligation and honour. It has nothing to do with ideology. In fact, EOTED places zero importance on ideology.]

which is exactly my point: you've become a defender of capitalism simply because the organization you've joined essentially requires it of you. not to mention you're ALLIED WITH MENELMACAR.

Oh the sadness, the perverse strangeness of it all.
The Capitalists, the Democrats and the Communists at each others throats like children argueing over a small toy, how petty.


~The Leader~
The State Incarnate
The Embodiment of Ideology
The Fascist Symbol
The Dictator of New Fascism

Like this didn't happen IRL in World War One?

well i sort of figured we would have learnt from WWI by now.

Well, bear in mind half the nations here never had it, so wouldn't have learned the lesson that huge alliances that are treaty-compelled to go to war at the drop of an enemy hat are a bad idea.

[OOC: EOTED only defends WBO members due to obligation and honour. It has nothing to do with ideology. In fact, EOTED places zero importance on ideology.]

which is exactly my point: you've become a defender of capitalism simply because the organization you've joined essentially requires it of you. not to mention you're ALLIED WITH MENELMACAR.

Perhaps that is the case because the alliance between Menelmacar and EOTED is one of the oldest in this game?

Oh, not to mention a certain kinship between them...

~ Ministry for international mockery, DA

you've actually rendered me speechless. i can still type, thank god, but my mouth is just kind of hanging.

Perhaps that is the case because the alliance between Menelmacar and EOTED is one of the oldest in this game?

I KNOW. that's my point. the EOTED is NOT ideologically aligned with Menelmaca, but might as well be since they defend Menelmacar from threats to their oppressive capitalistic regime etc etc. it's called de facto.

Oh, not to mention a certain kinship between them...

this really makes no sense. my nation has closer 'kinship' ties to, say, Rurh than M has to the EOTED since Ruhr and i (unless i'm highly mistaken) both have HUMAN governments. by your argument Ruhr and i should be even more closely aligned than M and the EOTED since we are EXACTLY the same species.

~ Ministry for international mockery, DA

unfortnately, your bungling attempts tend to have the reverse effect.

I have proof. It was Reverend Green, with a light Bulb, in the library

I have proof. It was Reverend Green, with a light Bulb, in the library

'Sorry, Death, you lose. It was Professor Plum!'

The WBO has no military arm, SATO is a completely different organization. Both organizations last time I checked had different leaders. Now if every member of SATO was in the WBO and it applied the otherway as well then okay it can be concluded that the WBO and SATO are pretty much the same. But that is not the case. (my emphasis)

So, if the WBO and SATO are entirely different organisations, we never turned down a NAP with SATO, as you claimed. Because SATO never gave us one, the WBO did. The "Non-military organisation".

'Sorry, Death, you lose. It was Professor Plum!'

"B5, Death."

"Damn! You sunk my battleship!"

[/being most excellent]

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Obviously, CACE fails to realise that i never said it was a non- aggression agreement between CACE and WBO. I said we, which is, actually, not specefic.

Quit claiming we said things we didn´t say.

~ Ministry for semantics, DA

~ DA, using the exact same style of argumentation CACE uses all the time. Feels dirty.

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Obviously, CACE fails to realise that i never said it was a non- aggression agreement between CACE and WBO. I said we, which is, actually, not specefic.

Quit claiming we said things we didn´t say.

~ Ministry for semantics, DA

~ DA, using the exact same style of argumentation CACE uses all the time. Feels dirty.

Clearly the UN assesment of your citizen's intellect is accurate.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Obviously, CACE fails to realise that i never said it was a non- aggression agreement between CACE and WBO. I said we, which is, actually, not specefic.

Quit claiming we said things we didn´t say.

~ Ministry for semantics, DA

~ DA, using the exact same style of argumentation CACE uses all the time. Feels dirty.

Clearly the UN assesment of your citizen's intellect is accurate.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Der Angst is ranked 17th in the region and 83,241st in the world for Stupidest Citizens.

This means DA citizens are intelligent ;)

If it was a NAP between the CACE and the WBO, who else would have offered it, DA? Please, enlighten me.

Since the WBO was the other participant according to the treaty itself, then it must have been offered by the WBO. Logic. Use it. It's nice.

And, DA, I can't help noticing that your government has a lot of superfluous ministers. Maybe you should cut down. I thought capitalist societies didn't have that much bureaucracy.

2. Funny enough, we offered a non- aggression agreement, a long time ago.

What on earth are you talking about? Who offered us a treaty? When?

Obviously, CACE fails to realise that i never said it was a non- aggression agreement between CACE and WBO. I said we, which is, actually, not specefic.

Quit claiming we said things we didn´t say.

~ Ministry for semantics, DA

~ DA, using the exact same style of argumentation CACE uses all the time. Feels dirty.

Clearly the UN assesment of your citizen's intellect is accurate.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Der Angst is ranked 17th in the region and 83,241st in the world for Stupidest Citizens.

This means DA citizens are intelligent ;)

The secretary who wrote that last message, on behalf of the Foreign Minister, has been sacked.

New message: given the obvious intellect of the average Der Angst citizen, we are dismayed that government spokespeople should be choosen from the least able.

OOC: Damn, I thought he posted something differen on that "UN report thread".

I thought capitalist societies didn't have that much bureaucracy.

Whatever gave you that idea?

I thought capitalist societies didn't have that much bureaucracy.

Whatever gave you that idea?

Bureaucracy is always present, everywhere. It is just the amplitude and magnitude of the bureaucracy that differs.

In the Grand Duchy, we have a minimal of bureaucracy due to our unconventional administrative structure, as can be judged from here. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68877)

OOC: Gotta update that thing a bit with more explanations :?

And, DA, I can't help noticing that your government has a lot of superfluous ministers. Maybe you should cut down. I thought capitalist societies didn't have that much bureaucracy.

Uhm...

The medium-sized, liberal, pro-business government juggles the competing demands of Defence, Education, and Law & Order.

OOC:It was a dig at all the different ministers you put up for every little thing, DA. "Minister of Semantics" being just one of the multitude. They're very committed to small things, aren't they?

I notice you reflected only on that, and not on my main point, though. Same for GMC and Tarasovka.

I notice you reflected only on that, and not on my main point, though. Same for GMC and Tarasovka.

Well, since I'm not a member of either organisation anymore and left before this whole thing started, it doesn't really concern me that much.

I thought capitalist societies didn't have that much bureaucracy.

Whatever gave you that idea?

yeah.

also, in case nobody figured it out, i'm Tellenic Aperin, but then you knew that since they're in the ACEPB. stupid cookies.

Ok. Because I'm a fan of Bill and Ted, I'll let you slide. :wink:

taken from the WBO Charter. it was weird, i had epiphany today, while checking your UN reports and noticing many WBO members are legalizing slavery, that there was more to that WBO/SATO thing, and i thought: too bad that thread died.

and then i read the charter. and saw:

Defensive Matters:

The military branch is not required by the Organization at this point, war is disruptive to the stability of the economy and halts international trade. We, however, advise a guard against terrorist and piracy attacks against civilan and merchant targets, as they have been quite rampant around the world.

If any WBO nation should come under attack by an external threat, the Directorate will organize the defensive effort alongside the Directorate of Defense. This includes the co-operative partnership with The South Atlantic Treaty Organization.

WBO nations will not be forced to join SATO, and vice versa. The WBO is not a military focused organization, Our primary focus is trade, finances, economy, commerce, and protecting the free-market ideals from internal and external threats. Since we do not formally have a military arm, this is where SATO comes in, as a partnership dedicated to preserving peace and combating terrorism and piracy. A partnership between the organizations will proof to be mutually beneficial to all parties.

oh yes, SATO preserves 'peace,' and of course when 'defending' KSM from the threat of a good example 'peace' is synonomous with markets.

bung!

oh yes, SATO preserves 'peace,' and of course when 'defending' KSM from the threat of a good example 'peace' is synonomous with markets.

bung!

I. So. Want. To. Wring. Your. Neck.

(at the moment I was typing, I did- bad thing :oops: )

But I won't.

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

Legalizing slavery? Who's doing that?

Legalizing slavery? Who's doing that?

... says the person who clubs baby seals. Seriously though you should see that as anticapitalist rhetoric: all wage labour is slavery and hence all nations who do not have private initiative banned are slavers. All rhetoric.

*shrugs*

Convicted felons are forced into slavery for their crimes, citizens are bleary-eyed after staying up all night with a good book, the nation is experiencing a severe shortage of sporting events, and schools have extensive counseling programs for troubled students. Crime -- especially youth-related -- is a serious problem. Exaltion's national animal is the Supushan, which frolics freely in the nation's many lush forests, and its currency is the Tae.

Protesters are up in arms over new nuclear power stations, schools have extensive counseling programs for troubled students, the automotive industry soaks up huge government handouts, and convicted felons are forced into slavery for their crimes. Crime -- especially youth-related -- is totally unknown, thanks to the all-pervasive police force and progressive social policies in education and welfare. Endless Islands's national animal is the cat, which teeters on the brink of extinction due to widespread deforestation, and its currency is the endless euro.

those two are recent, this one is from the 14th.

Eight year-olds can be seen lighting up in public areas, Pinkerton agents are called in to forcibly break up white collar strikes, convicted felons are forced into slavery for their crimes, and over-inflated fears of a "Y1" bug have turned humble IT workers into millionaires. Crime -- especially youth-related -- is totally unknown, thanks to the all-pervasive police force and progressive social policies in education and welfare. New York and Jersey's national animal is the subway rat, which teeters on the brink of extinction due to widespread deforestation, and its currency is the dollar.

Legalizing slavery? Who's doing that?

... says the person who clubs baby seals. Seriously though you should see that as anticapitalist rhetoric: all wage labour is slavery and hence all nations who do not have private initiative banned are slavers. All rhetoric.

*shrugs*

That wasn't SeOCC. That was a Sea Orc, and a work of IC fiction, by certain other people not connected with SeOCC. Last I checked, anyway.