NationStates Jolt Archive

(OOC: This should have gone up last night, but my connection crapping out on me prevented it. Der Angst and Most Glorious Hack can vouch that I've been working on this.)

The following was broadcast on ISN, and simulcast on just about every major network worth a damn. It was... well, huge. A speech by Lady Sirithil... but not just any speech... read on...

http://www.cotakisni.com/b5/isn/isnlogo.gif
When Truth Matters Most, you can depend... on ISN!

"This is a special presentation live from Fëanor Palace - a fireside chat with Lady Sirithil."

*The scene switches to a view of Siri sitting in a comfortable chair, next to a cozy, crackling fireplace; the fireplace is of stone, and behind Siri there's a bookshelf. A TV screen is set into the stone chimney above the mantelpiece. Siri begins:*

"People of Menelmacar and nations of the world, we come together today to discuss matters of the most grave importance. Usually these fireside chats of mine deal largely with domestic topics, a sort of update on the state of the nation, but for this week, events have required we expand coverage, and deal with a more... heady matter.

*An image of the SeOCC flag appears on the screen above the fireplace.*

"For several months now, the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar and her allies have been at an effective state of cold war with the Coalition of Anti-Capitalist Economies, or CACE. Many of the nations of CACE, we are sure, would be peaceful, and content to pursue their ideology within their own borders - which, I should emphasize, would be a policy with which Menelmacar would have no problem - were it not for the nation of SeOCC. Almost since the beginning of SeOCC's existence as an independent nation, they have agitated and rabbleroused and generally schemed to force their way of life upon the world. However, we always held out hope they could be reasoned with.

"We were wrong. The Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar hereby categorizes SeOCC as a rogue state.

"We come to this conclusion after months of research and careful deliberation, after months of investigation, and gathering of evidence. This process would still likely be under way were it not for recent events that have pushed us to this point.

"As is well-known, the nation of Skargarden, bordering SeOCC in the Aperin region, recently secured its freedom from brutal Svea Rigan occupation. It warmed my heart to see a downtrodden, brutalized people have the chance to grow and make a place for themselves in the world, to have freedom for the first time in decades. In an effort to secure and prolong that freedom, the Skargardeni reached out to SATO, the South Atlantic Treaty Organization, of which Menelmacar is a prominent member. An agreement was made with the Skargarden government that a SATO base could be placed in Skargarden, and we would protect them from future aggression, from either Svea Riga or anyone else.

"Further to that, we suggested to hold wargames in Skargarden to improve tactical readiness and to better liaise with their forces should such events come to pass. Skargarden agreed, and the hospitality and welcome with which we were welcomed to Skargarden - as liberators and friends - was more than we could have ever hoped.

*Images of happy Skargardeni children welcoming SATO troops are shown above the fireplace, as per the early posts in the wargames thread.*

"The CACE, however, has panicked, led by SeOCC's brash and baseless accusations that we intend to invade. They came to this conclusion without evidence, without diplomatic discourse, without investigation. We can only be, frankly, mystified that such people were permitted to take power. This is the setting in which the current crisis has arisen.

"Thusly, today we will present to the world the evidence we have gathered against SeOCC, proof that they are in fact the rogue state they have always denied to be. While some evidence cannot be released at this time to protect sources and methods, some other - fortunately among the most damning - have been judged safe for release.

*An image showing two currency symbols, M€ and W$, is shown on the screen above the fireplace.*

"Several months ago there was a crisis involving the Pure Evil World Dollar. SeOCC and several other CACE nations managed to acquire several trillion units of the currency, with which they attempted to destabilize the Menelmacari Credit. As you know, the plot failed miserably, with quick action by the WBO nations' fiscal authorities bolstering the Credit and causing the near-total collapse in the value of the World Dollar. Speculation was rife at the time that the plot was a part of a larger-scale attempt to destabilize the global economy, and to force a socialist revolution. This assertion was repeatedly and vehemently derided by SeOCC's various 'Frontdesk' talking heads as fairy tales and baseless supposition. Well, it isn't so baseless anymore.

"Operatives placed within the CACE have retrieved documents suggesting that the SeOCC Ministry of Economics has in fact gone to great lengths to arrange for exactly such a plot. As it turns out, the attack on our currency was only the first step - or perhaps a dry run - for what would have eventually escalated into a global fraud worth tens of trillions of World Dollars. These actions would have been taken by SeOCC and numerous other CACE nations - evidence points especially to Celdonia and Constantinopolis - along with help from outside CACE, including the petty nation of Praetor, which never did get over their anger at being denied the post of Secretary-General of SATO. We can release the Ministry of Economics policy paper on the subject at this time. Menelmacari viewers can peruse the paper immediately by thumbing the 'Would you like to know more?' button on their holovision remotes; viewers elsewhere will see a Web URL at the bottom of their TV screen.

*The link appears.*

(OOC: Link at the bottom.)

*The insignia of the ACEPB, translucently superimposed over scenes of burning villages and shootouts in the streets, appears on the screen above the fireplace.*

"The leadership of SeOCC, further, has shown themselves to be unworthy of controlling a world government. They are unfit to rule. To the last man they are hysterical and paranoid to a fault. They will stop at nothing to prevent anything from standing in the way of their plans to overthrow the world's economy. Even in their own backyard they practice the same form of imperialistic policies they decry everywhere else. Let our thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Tellenic Aperin and "Empire" - a remarkably apt name - who are even now being terrorized by stormtroopers attached to the Aperin Central Economic Planning Board, the Orwellian apparatus whereby SeOCC dictates the economic production quotas of every municipality in Aperin. While SeOCC claims to be 'just another member' of this board, it more often than not enforces the will of SeOCC, and SeOCC enforces the will of the board.

"'Empire' and Tellenic Aperin themselves are two barely-organized territories that answer to SeOCC in much the same fashion as Heliotis, the realm which 'economically unified' with (read: was annexed by) SeOCC. The people of Empire and TA wished simply to have the right that all Menelmacari and untold billions of people and communities around the world have, and which the people of Aperin are denied by SeOCC and their lackeys: they wished to retain control of the fruits of their own labors, and to sell to whomever they wished. Instead, the ACEPB has demanded that they turn over all surplus goods to the board so they can be distributed - where else? - in the massive arcology-cities of SeOCC. Hundreds of people have already died on both sides of the conflict as ACEPB troops attack and local protestors respond, and even some other members of CACE have found themselves forced to stand up and protest these brutal and savage misuses of authority.

(OOC: Link at the bottom.)

*The insignia of the Volunteer Army appears on the screen above the fireplace.*

"SeOCC has also long had ties to terrorism. You recall several months ago, the attacks against the oil rigs off the Aperin coast owned by the nation of Der Angst. SeOCC, at first, claimed to be incapable of investigating or dealing with the attacks in any way, and it was only with the most stringent of international pressure that they finally conceded that the Volunteer Army was responsible and incarcerated several thousand members.

The Volunteer Army is an organization of more than twelve thousand members, who have been implicated in many terrorist attacks around the world, following a global pan-socialist agenda. SeOCC has now dispelled any possibility that they have deep and long-standing ties to this heinous band of criminals and murderers. They have offered amnesty to all twelve thousand members, and given full pardons and early releases to the three thousand of those held within their prisons. Not only this, but they have re-armed the Volunteer Army. They did this, ostensibly to patrol their streets, but we failed to understand how they felt that a mere twelve thousand irregulars would do any good in the event SATO actually was planning to attack. It will become clear in the next few minutes, the sort of operations for which they really were planning to use the VA.

(OOC: Link at the bottom.)

*A video clip of a fishing trawler appears on the screen above the fireplace.*

"This is the plot which has forced our hand. Our intelligence has discovered that SeOCC, Celdonia, and the Volunteer Army have been engaged in a plot to insert and possibly detonate a nuclear device within Skargarden. The aim of this is to eradicate the SATO forces protecting the nation, after which the CACE would march upon Skargarden and install a more... malleable regime, one more conducive to their long-term agenda. We intercepted a transmission involving a plot to insert several teams of Volunteer Army operatives onto the coast of Skargarden using the fishing trawler depicted on the screen to my left. Using divers and Zodiac boats, they would transfer a large quantity of EDW - electronic disruption warfare - equipment into Skargarden. This includes the much-vaunted Q Consoles for which SeOCC is infamous, which would be used to interfere with and disrupt the wargames. In addition to this, they would transfer ashore a nuclear device, provided by Celdonia. This device would be planted within Skargarden, to be detonated against SATO forces at a time of SeOCC's choosing. Fortunately, even as I speak, this plot is being foiled, the terrorists apprehended, by elements of the Ruhrian and Knootian militaries, and the MIDF. The Volunteer Army teams have been intercepted, their trawler, computers, and nuclear warhead seized.

(OOC: Link at the bottom.)

"That they would take this step is both shocking and appalling. SATO has made no aggressive moves towards the border, there have been no indications of any plans to invade SeOCC - because there is no plan to invade SeOCC. Instead, they have conducted an act of open warfare against the Skargardeni, who have in their plight and the precariousness of their newfound freedom, turned to SATO and Menelmacar for protection. This cannot stand. This cannot be permitted to continue. SeOCC is a rogue state that has gotten out of control. Perhaps they thought they were defending themselves, though now they have provided the very casus belli - the invasion of a SATO ally using terrorists and weapons of mass destruction, with aims to overthrow that nation's government - that SATO would need to even hope to justify an invasion of Aperin. Whether we respond as such is yet to be decided. As such, I will be calling within the next few days an emergency session of the South Atlantic Treaty Organization, whereby I will open a debate and call a vote regarding whether SATO will go to war.

Would You Like To Know More? (www.geocities.com/imperialsatellitenews)

We are in dark times, people of Menelmacar, SATO, and the world. Not just SATO, not just WBO, but the entire world is at risk from the machinations of SeOCC. It is my dearest hope that we can find a path through the darkness, and that there will be light at the other end.

Thank you all, and goodnight, and may the Valar continue to bless Menelmacar."

*We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.*

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/sirithil/sirithilnosfeanor.gifLady Sirithil nos Fëanor
Elentári of the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar
Regent of Lavenrunz, Chancellor of CENNA
"We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. We will see freedom's victory."
~US President George W. Bush
We Love the Iraqi Information Minister (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com)
Clicky-clicky!

Having examined the evidence laid out, in at least part the Farseer Council has deemed that should SATO vote an affirmative on the matter we would also be willing to support it's actions although we are not a member state of that organisation.

We find any group that would use, or attempt to use Nuclear weapons in any manner, a threat to the stabilty of all known life, we condemn any that would do so, especially in such a manner as this. We will follow any directions given to us by the Alliance of SATO on this matter.

Farseer Council

Although not a SATO member nation, the Kingdom of Pyrtania gladly offers what small military support we may to the most noble Lady Sirithil nos Feanor and SATO in solidarity with the people of Skargarden, in the desire to protect world peace from aggressor nations, and in gratitude for the role layed by the Menelmacari in our own liberation from our human minority government.
Lady Amena, Foreign Minister

As a member of SATO, and a former member of the "Wargame team", we've reviwed the evidence of this unforgivable act. We comdemn SeOCC for their attempted of using nuclear weapons inside Skygarden.

Although we cannot contribute forces right now due to increased tensions, we wish our fellow SATO friends good luck. The interceptation of this so-called "Volunteer" Army is truly a feat.

--Foreign Affairs Ministry

OOC:

Well, got nothing to add. My forces are part of the wargame after all, so just one thing to say:

http://www.digikitten.com/playhousev2/files/Mishgan/Siri_Ownz.gif

http://www.digikitten.com/playhousev2/files/Mishgan/SiriFoxBanner.gif

OOC: Siri, do your fingers still work after that buttload of typing?

IC: The Crimmond Imperium will assist Lady Siri, should the need arise. However, we are currently indisposed at the moment with internal problems, so our assitance may not be much.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alpha_zero_usm/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/reil.jpg
Lord Reil Tian
Ruler of The Imperial Capital Province of Crimmond (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=crimmond)
Leader of the Crimmond Imperium
Council Member of the Coalition of Universal Rights (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83081)
Crimmond National Factbook (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=76921)
Crimmond Timeline (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89569)

We find ourselves skeptical of the evidence presented in this broadcast. SeOCC's leadership, in our own experiance, has been loath to use nuclear devices on the scale Lady Sithril has indicated, and even more loathe to use any sort of weaponry on innocent civilian populations. The responses of CACE nations so far have been a direct result of SATO aggression and attempts to undermine our national security; does the Lady Sithril believe CACE will tolerate a military base constructed and manned by the most powerful nation of an organization clearly hostile to our very interests and existance? Furthermore, what would they have to gain from being the first users of WMDs against an organization with the capacity to use and produce many more?

Our hopes are that a peaceful solution may be found to this dispute; any war between CACE and SATO would almost certainly be horrific in the scale of its destruction and bloodshed, and leave both sides brutalized in such a way as to render any victory ultimatly phyrric. Nonetheless, until this situation is resolved, Alvarezistan must take measures to protect its own security. Till an agreement can be reached, all citizens of SATO nations in Alvarezistan for any reason whatsoever are to be immediatly deported. This includes tourists, holders of student visas, diplomatic staff, ambassadors, illegal immigrants, etc. Alvar citizens of SATO birth or nationality shall be put under close surveillance.

As per Emergency Executive Directive 1103-129, any foreign intelligence operatives found within Alvarezistan will be charged with espionage and tried by a military tribunal. Keep in mind that the directive allows trial not simply for actual acts of espionage; mere membership or former in foreign intelligence organizations is enough to qualify for charges, the maximum penalty for which is death. Thus, it is advisable to pull any and all SATO intelligence assets out of Alvarezistan before a 'situation' develops. The Internal Security Bureau is already conducting thorough sweeps of suspicious persons.

We find ourselves skeptical of the evidence presented in this broadcast. SeOCC's leadership, in our own experiance, has been loath to use nuclear devices on the scale Lady Sithril has indicated, and even more loathe to use any sort of weaponry on innocent civilian populations. The responses of CACE nations so far have been a direct result of SATO aggression and attempts to undermine our national security; does the Lady Sithril believe CACE will tolerate a military base constructed and manned by the most powerful nation of an organization clearly hostile to our very interests and existance? Furthermore, what would they have to gain from being the first users of WMDs against an organization with the capacity to use and produce many more?


And yet we are faced with their own words which confirms everystatement made by the Lady Sirithil, For those who have not seen the Do you want to know more we reproduce it here.


The EDWD has formulated a plan....

A civilian trawler posing as a marine biology vessel has been sent from SeOCC to Skargarden, and will begin patrolling the eastern coast of Skargarden tonight. The trawler is carrying several EDWD operatives, a small unit of Volunteers, significant EDW weaponry and, most importantly, a nuclear device acquired from Celdonia. The plan is straightforward...

The third will, with the nuclear device, set it near the DMZ, which is the most likely route for ground forces to enter SeOCC since our defenses there are weak. The device will be detonated when their main force begins the land drive, and will be totally obliterated before they even set foot in SeOCC.



There you have it in the Leadership of SeoCC own words 'The third, will with the nuclear device, set it near the DMZ' Your 'Friends' in this nation have planned and started a path that would have led to Nuclear war, for further evidence we on the Council will be provided extremly quickly.

Farseer Council

IC:
The Knootian government has reported SeOCC to be as in violation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty they are a signatory to and has called for appropriate measures to be taken. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55372&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=135)

a real IC reply is forthcoming

The Most Holy Principality of Roania shall gladly aid its allies in this most worthy of tasks.

Simply say the word, and we shall show those CACE creeps what proper WMDs can do. You think a nuclear weapon is powerful? You have seen nothing yet.

Of course, we shall act only on your orders, Lady Sirithril, Farseer Telgorithind.

http://www.digikitten.com/playhousev2/files/Mishgan/SiriFoxBanner.gif
OOC: I love that banner.

http://www.digikitten.com/playhousev2/files/Mishgan/SiriFoxBanner.gif
OOC: I love that banner.

OOC: I am always pleased to please the audience :D

Speaker-to-Animals folds his arms, looking out from the window of his office over the Art Deco architecture of topside Stonozka. Having newly 'redecorated' since his election, it is no longer the empty utilitarianism of Kommetrez nor the idle decoration of Hertzfeldt. The wall opposite the window is covered in a rich red and yellow tapestry covered in odd abstract shapes and scratch-like script, recently removed from Speaker's home. The shelves behind the simple metal desk are filled with books and random items, including several polished bone skulls of various animals now acting as bookends. "Report?"

Garbo grins at the K'zin's back, knowing full well he won't offend at the moment. "I've had my section take a look at it. Looks like it's legit. Sure, MISSION could pull off a good frameup if they wanted, but we've enough substantiating evidence from our networks to pretty much confirm what the good Lady said."

"Hrm." Speaker rubs his chin with a broad hand, his barely-furred tail flicking back and forth.

Well, sir, Kommetrez interjects, eyes glowing a soft brown, I'd be cautious in this situation. Our terrestrial power-projection has always been limited to quick strikes, and SeOCC has never been more than an occasional nuisance. While Siri is a good ally, we shouldn't get directly involved militarily unless she is directly attacked. However, given the suppression of Tellenic Aperin... we may want to be on standby for extraction.

Speaker nods, then turns to Garbo. "Janus, put out a confirmation memo from SIS. Put in it exactly what you told us. We will support by adding our credibility to her statement."

Garbo half-salutes with two fingers. "Acting, boss."

"Razak, tell the Three-Teef to standby for further orders. I will contact the rest of the Triumvirate and find their feelings." Speaker sets his jaw. "If we are to extract, we will be ready."

Razak nods curtly. "Yes, sir."

***

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/scolopendra/sis-small.jpg
Scolopendran Intelligence Section (S.I.S.)
Centre

After reviewing Lady Sirithil nos Fëanor's evidence with our own intelligence resources, I have determined that she speaks the truth. What we have learned corroborates sufficiently with her analysis of the situation to indicate that, yes, SeOCC is in violation of its stated ideals and policies.

Especially given the damning evidence against it in the case of the attempt to overthrow global markets and in oppressing those yearning to be free of their Stalinist tyranny, we of the Scolopendran intelligence community are convinced of the validity of the results of the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar's findings.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/scolopendra/janus_garbo.gifAdvisor Janus Garbo
Intelligence Section
Federated Segments of Scolopendra

Message from the Kalessin Ministry of Truth:

"We feel that this latest barrage of Menelmacari propaganda merely proves the Elentari's megalomaniac greed. She must be stopped, but if that is to happen without such a war as this world has never seen before, her allies must be willing to put what they believe in before their loyalty to a corrupt dictator and the petty pieces of paper that are the SATO treaty. They must do what is right, or are they slaves to the whims of this evil tyrant? Or will they allow her to enforce her will upon others purely through apathy? They must not. If any vestige of freedom is to remain in this world or ours, the members of SATO must rise up, and expel this canker from their midst. Without them she is nothing. But if they decide that a scrap of paper is worth more than freedom and justice, any nation which wishes to be safe from the Elven whore may seek freedom and sanctuary within the Arda alliance. All they have to do is contact the Kalessin Ministry of Peace, and swear never to aid the plague upon civilisation that is Menelmacar in fulfilling the evil plans of its foul leader."

Although we are not a member of SATO, we are a member of WBO, and have since long recognized the threat SeOCC and CACE stand for. We unilaterally condemn the terrorist actions planned by SeOCC and their allies. The 5th Royal High Guard army group stands ready to defend freedom together with SATO if it should become a necessity, though we hope that now that the actions of CACE has become clear to all, it will loose support and the situation will improve. In such a case, escalation is avoidable.

Prince Fredrik I, on behalf of the Free People of the Principality of Exaltion.

http://medlem.spray.se/angeleyes/swpics/exaltion_prince.jpg

Beamed out on all available satellite channels, broadcast across the CACE, available for anyone to run, ready for dl from the Data Havens, the following transmission is live and will be repeated. Minister of Politics Talia Ellman-Fogg appears on screen, flanked by Comrade Rhotgar of Terronos, Minister of Foreign Affairs Tina Luten, Minister of Social Affairs Gennedy Villivich, Special Officer Ibin Khalid and EDWD Chief Controller Edmund Flagg. Minister Ellman-Fogg address the room.

Nations of the world, this is my utmost honor. I stand with the key figures of SeOCC government as well as with the most gracious Comrade Rhothgar, head of state of our host country at this moment, to bring you the most stunning of revelations. I am here to present to you, as an abstract to the forthcoming indepth report to be compiled from the CACE, evidence beyond refute of SATO's part in greviously aggressive actions against the CACE.

I will let, first, Special Officer Khalid address some of the accusations presented by the Menelmacari Hegemon.

Khalid takes the podium.

Thank you, Minister.

From the beginning SeOCC has never made any attempt to hide our nation. We are a radically anti-capitalist and fundamentally interventionist government. We are the mirror image of Menelmacar, who intervenes where ever they wish, for whatever reasons they feel just. Early in our history we did the same, using our EDW superiority to bring about direct policy changes.

With a more sophisticated understanding of the global networks we began to realize the ineffectiveness of direct action tactics. We sought a more institutional approach, one that could act upon true conditions, not those constructed through our political understandings. We make no excuses, we want to see capitalism fall. We also recognize that there are times when capitalism is, in fact, the best economic system available, and it is for that reason that we created the Economic Treaty ratified by the CACE and offered to the world in general.

SeOCC remains committed to non-violent, peaceful means of achieving meaningful change and improvement in the living conditions of all living things. While the World Business Organization may rail against us for our tactics they have never once attempted to address the fundamental issues that create conflict between the capitalist and non-capitalist world, namely the ideological objections each has to the other. They attempt to dodge these issues with non-aggression pacts, ignoring the fact that the CACE has never mobilized as an aggressor, while simoultaenously ignoring the real issue at hand. The CACE has repeatedly attempted to find common ground but has been rebuffed by the rigidly liberal policies of the World Business Organization and their sister pact the South Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Yes, SeOCC is an economically aggressive nation and we make no apologies for this. It is a matter of public record. SeOCC is also a realistic nation, and anyone with the will can find numerous official statements and policies in which SeOCC favored an effective rather than ideological approach to economics and politics. We conceived and supported liberalization of the Jigoku economy before the civil war, our economic advisors are present in virtually every developing nation in the CACE, guiding them towards an effective answer to their individual problems.

We do not export our ideology, we export our standard of living. If the Menelmacari Hegemon finds fault in our actions she should perhaps consider her own. For a nation with an avowedly militaristic intervention policy to lecture a nation with an avowedly economic intervention policy seems the height of hypocrisy.

SO Khalid steps back from the podium and Minister Ellman-Fogg returns.

Thank you Special Officer.

I will now address the issues regarding the Volunteer Army. The origin of the Volunteer Army is to often ignored by our critics, who remain largely ignorant as to the how and why of the VA's day to day operations. They are aware of only the large attacks carried out against the oil rigs and against Rigan targets. It is worth noting that the government of Svea Riga, who has been the primary victim of the VA's attention in recent years, has lodged no objection to our offer of amnesty.

The VA was formed to export our ideology through means our government refused to take. The VA remained the gravest threat to SeOCC's security simply because their actions were, despite our constant attempts to break their organization in SeOCC, some how blamed on our government. We classified the VA as a terrorist organization because of their acts against Svea Riga and the Der Angst oil rigs, in which they used violent means to achieve ends that might have been achieved peacefully. The MSA, under the guidance of Minister Villivich, has worked tirelessly to apprehend all those responsible for VA attacks wherever they may occur.

Which does not explain why SeOCC pardoned the Volunteers. That question can be answered by quoting an article by former Minister Alexander Soren: We are afraid. We are human beings. SeOCC has no military to speak of, and we realized immediately our police forces would be wholly insufficient to protect the nation. The pardon of the Volunteers was a pragmatic decision in order to lay our hands on a veteran fighting force capable of resisting an invasion, an invasion that we now know was not a fiction of our paranoia.

As for our investigation of the oil rig attacks, I respectfully correct the Menelmacari Hegemon. SeOCC was more than capable of an investigation and in fact was carrying one out when SATO forces demanded entry, both for their military forces and their investigators. After failing to cooperate with the MSA they were refused access to our crime scene and they left, refusing to continue the investigation on their own. To their credit, our own MSA succesfully concluded that investigation and brought those responsible for justice.

The Menelmacari Hegemon, speaking for the World Business Organization and the South Atlantic Treaty Organization, says these accusations are baseless. We know for a fact, however, that specific discussions occured on not only how to invaded SeOCC but how to invade the CACE in general. This evidence will be presented by the joint CACE report, and at this moment all I can say is this: Sirithil we know you are lying. Soon all the world will know you are lying.

Regarding Skargarden, we know for a fact that the WBO sought out Skargarden, for reasons I will leave to the intelligent viewers watching this to infer on their own. Some may claim they are liberators, but how did they achieve this liberation? By having Skargarden agree to place SATO military bases on their soil, a deterrant against Rigan attacks. Did it occur to anyone to broker a peace deal between the two nations? It occured to the CACE.

I am proud to announce that, acting jointly with many other Aperin nations, we will soon be presenting a Rigan-Skargarden Non Aggression Pact which will ensure the end of war in Aperin for the foreseable future. Why Skargarden's capitalist benefactors did not pursue so obvious a course eludes us to this day.

As for the ACEPB and ACPB, the Menelmacari Hegemon has no place to speak, being totally ignorant as to the workings of either organization. SeOCC leads neither and acts as an equal to all other members. I challenge any nation to present an iota of evidence to show otherwise. This is all I will say regarding these absurd accusations.

And now, for what I have truly savored, let me speak to this fishing trawler.

It has been known for quite some time that there was a spy active in the CACE. Our operations for several months have been devoted to rooting out this spy, who we knew for a fact was divulging information to the World Business Organization and its members. Several nations, acting in cooperation with each other, launched a massive investigation which led us to the culprit: a little known nation called Sailune, a member of the CACE. In order to provide the evidence required we created a fake operation that we knew the SATO forces in Aperin could not ignore.

We convinced a crew of marine biologists working for the SeOCC Academy of Natural Sciences to, while they studied the mating habits of certain aquatic mollusks, to act as bait for our spy and their masters. We told Sailune, and Sailune only, that a trawler would be dispatched from SeOCC carrying EDWD and Volunteer Army operatives with three objectives. First, to sabotage radar installations in Skargarden. Second, to give us hardline access to their networks. Finally, to place a nuclear weapon near the Skargarden DMZ, to be detonated if SATO forces start moving towards SeOCC.

This was, let me emphasize this, completely fictitious. As the Ruhurian forces which have boarded the trawler have no doubt found, there is no EDW equipment on board, no weapons, no Q Consoles, no nuclear weapon. This plot with the Menelmacari Hegemon is so pleased to have foiled did not exist. The trawler is a scientific vessel on a scientific mission, boarded illegally in international waters by a WBO member, based on one piece of intelligence which clearly could not be trusted.

This proves beyond a doubt that the World Business Organization and South Atlantic Treaty Organization have been spying against us, which is hardly surprising. However, given that espionage is generally illegal, and that the CACE has never undertaken espionage operations against any WBO or SATO nations, we must wonder here: who is the aggressor? Is it the SeOCC trawlwer, with no weapons and only two Volunteers selected for their affection for marijuana, or the Ruhr storm troopers who boarded at gun point and threatened the crew.

The rogue state here is not SeOCC, if anything the rogue actions are those of the WBO and SATO, who speak for peace while preparing for war against us. Again, the full report from the CACE will deal with these issues specifically, but for now, this message is for the WBO: we know you are lying. Soon the whole world will know you are lying.

I thank the Menelmacari Hegemon for placing her foot so prominently in her mouth, and I thank all CACE nations and citizens who took part in this operation. I am overjoyed to response the end of general evacuation of SeOCC, and tomorrow we will begin moving refugees back into SeOCC so they can return home.

I look forward to presenting with the CACE our full investigation, and for now, comrades, let us rejoice, the storm has passed. To the capitalists invading Aperin, leave! You have no place among the peace loving nations of our continent. Return home and never forget that today you were the aggressor!

As an "applied" member of CENNA, the Holy Sindarin Empire of Aelosia pledges its loyalty to their Menelmacari allies in this affair. As usual, Menelmacar has our support in all fields, the military, the economic, and the political. If you need any help, just send a message.

Sadly, due to a reoccuring error in Banner Broadcasting Company's translation technology, the people of Slutbum Wallah recieved the following audio message during the tranmission from Menelmacar.

Bzzt... Beeeewwwooooooooup.... Doedle oop.... eep

Hello gentlemen..
Bzzt
All your base are belong to us..
Bzzt
Haha..
Bzzt
Ha..

*We now return you to your regularly-scheduled programming.*

Twenty minutes after the broadcast was recieved, the Cabinet voted unanimously to break neutality and seek a protective alliance with CACE against Menelmacari Imperialism. Ten confused minutes after the vote was taken in, the Cabinet voted unanimously to veto the previous vote as it was taken under *Extreme circumstances affecting the metnal state of the ministers*.

Sadly, none of this got through to the people of Slutbum Wallah, who were panicking like hell.

<<Roanian National News: What the government chooses to tell you.>>



"Having weighed both sides of the argument" Alexander Black said on RNN today, "I am still going to remain alongside our allies Menelmacar. The lies of CACE have been shown for what they are."

"The evidence presented by Sirithril is much more impressive than the 'evidence'," He sneered, "presented by the Politburro of Seocc. We have never known the elves to be aggressors. The mere existence of the VA shows that communism is an evil that must be stamped out."

Walking alongside him, Minister of War Edmund Hyacinth said, "However, war will not be an occurence. Thus, we offer SATO the Roanian Plain for wargames and practice maneuvers. Roania is an ideal spot, just a few hundred miles to the west of Menelmacari territory western North America, and thus far away from Communist aggression."

Oh it all becomes so clear the SeoCC government decided that to route out a potential Spy they would create a FALSE NUCLEAR WEAPONS plot, yes that was an entirely sensible course of action. Also actually while Spys are illegal if a nation decides to pass on information then that nation is within it's rights.

WHAT nation wouldn't if they where peace loving, do the same only the vicious and truely insane would create a plot that involved a Nuclear weapon even as a Bluff, as such a fool threatens the stabilty of the World. Let us make this ONE thing clear to you Mon-Keigh When you invented the Nuclear weapon you became burdened with a simple obligation, you had to come to understand they are not Toys. Unfortunatly no matter the truth of this incident it is obvious that the Seocc government are staffed by Children, or they go to their Local Insane asylum for advisors.

For the safty of the world these government needs to learn a lesson, and at the very least pay reperations.

The Black Iron Imperium of Axackal II, which is ruled by God On Earth, Black Empress Helena Cocytus-Black, believes that the evil race of elves, ruled by the dark witch Siri are attempting to create any and all excuses they can to go to war against the human race for the sole purpose of enslaving the human race, SeoCC has Axackal II support against the evil Satan Siri and against the evil elvish race.


http://arcticnightfall.com/sailormoon/images/sub/characters/mn_lady.jpg
The Black Empress Helena Cocytus-Black
Seek Freedom and become captive of your desires, Seek discipline and find your liberty.
The Black Iron Imperium of Axackal II

The Kingdom of Pyrtania rejects in their entirety the so called proofs and demonstrations offerred to us by the rogues and aggressors of SeoCC. We stand beside our belief that there is a fundamental difference in the intervention of Menelmacar and the intervention of SeoCC, namely that the one is for freedom and equality and the other for Stalinistic tyranny. Our support for the Lady Sirithil remains utterly unflinching.
Lady Amena, Foreign Minister

OOC:

Actually, I don't think any of us care that much anymore if the Siri Fan Club goes to war with us bad commies, because in RP terms at least you now have to accept that you intended to go to war with us all along (and you did...please, no BS) or that your intelligence forces are pretty dumb (i.e. they believe any crap Menelmacar feeds them).

Anyway, it's getting late now. More revelations will be forthcoming.

Public Rally, November 8, 1981

SeoCC has forgotton the true tenants of Communism! Perfect China will stay out of this war between the capitalist elves and the false communist goverment in SeoCC, after the smoke has cleared, Perfect China will do everything it can to ensure that the people of SeoCC get a real Revolution! Down with Capitalism! Down with False Communism! May the Light of the Mao's Guide The World To True Communist Glory!

End of Tape


http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:e6ffnG-cETQC:cookministries.ibelieve.com/uploads/47/3610.jpg
President Nah Tan Mao
The United People’s States of Perfect China

OOC:

Actually, I don't think any of us care that much anymore if the Siri Fan Club goes to war with us bad commies, because in RP terms at least you now have to accept that you intended to go to war with us all along (and you did...please, no BS) or that your intelligence forces are pretty dumb (i.e. they believe any crap Menelmacar feeds them).

Anyway, it's getting late now. More revelations will be forthcoming.

OOC Well your very confident in yourself, I mean what a great plan no flaws. Now your right a War won't come of this, but thats simply due to the nature of NS. If this had been real life what are the chances to you think that Siri or an ally might have not simply gone onto TV to say they had HIGHLY reliable information that said Seocc was planning a Nuclear strike against their forces and as such they where launching a Pre-Emptive strike.

Even when the truth comes out I am thinking no one would have condemned them. You where threatening the use of nuclear weapons, standard response to such is the Pre-Emptive strike because it's better to have them in the air. You played with Nukes for no reason, all this could have been achieved without them, think about it, instead of the Nuke instead you miss out that portion of the plan, the rest however is included Siri Turns up and has Egg on her face, you win. Instead you put her in a position where she can turn round and say, that as a standard procedure they act quickly when Nuclear weapons are threatened, and they have little to no time to make sure. (You stated the plan was already in motion remember)

The Response, we understand we don't care that you where wrong, we are simply glad your people are safe, and condemn the idfiots that risked nuclear war for no reason.

Oh it all becomes so clear the SeoCC government decided that to route out a potential Spy they would create a FALSE NUCLEAR WEAPONS plot, yes that was an entirely sensible course of action. Also actually while Spys are illegal if a nation decides to pass on information then that nation is within it's rights.

WHAT nation wouldn't if they where peace loving, do the same only the vicious and truely insane would create a plot that involved a Nuclear weapon even as a Bluff, as such a fool threatens the stabilty of the World. Let us make this ONE thing clear to you Mon-Keigh When you invented the Nuclear weapon you became burdened with a simple obligation, you had to come to understand they are not Toys. Unfortunatly no matter the truth of this incident it is obvious that the Seocc government are staffed by Children, or they go to their Local Insane asylum for advisors.

For the safty of the world these government needs to learn a lesson, and at the very least pay reperations.

Reparations?

Who has been hurt, who has been harmed? Who, indeed, could ever have possibly been injured in this operation to remove the spies of the WBO from our midst?

None, save the brave volunteers who were on the trawler, risking their lives - volunteers, it must be emphasized, who were civilians in international waters, completely unarmed and conducting research on a particular species of mollusk. Perhaps the marine biologists should press charges against the Ruhrian military, for those are the only reparations applicable in this incident.

Truly, for the SATO to speak of us as aggressors and rogues is laughable, as it is to speak of the Menelmacari as liberators. It is us that must say this, that must announce it to the world, for the dead do not speak - the helpless innocents murdered in wars instigated by SATO or by one of its nations.

The full investigation will be presented soon. We counsel all nations to withold judgement and action until such time that they have evaluated our own investigations.

~The Commonwealth Synod

Oh and it is okay to in the course of rooting out a spy run the risk of the Pre-Emptive strike. You Fools, did it never cross your minds that even Bluffing with such a thing is beyond stupidity, what in all the twisted sick mind of 'she-Who-Thirsts' was even the reasoning behind making this plan include the threat of nuclear weapon!!

How was the plan advanced by it's inclusion, I can see no part of the plan which nbeeded the inclusion of the threat of nuclear destruction! You simply wished to make a big splash well done. We Eldar have no care about Capitalism or socialism we are followers of the Path System, one that is neither Capitalist or Socialist, however by your actions you are condemning the entire cause of Socialism in our eyes, your alliance is viewed by us, as fools and idiots who do not understand the simple power behind the technology or the need for rapid action it generates!

You uncovered your spy, well done, in the doing of it you risked all, for no reason, you risked destruction when you need not have and achieved nothing extra.

The reperations should be for the fear and threat you caused for making the world Hold it's breath for no other reason than because you wanted to make a plan LARGE, EYECATHCING to gain the worlds attention...

Well done you have achieved this, we have seen it, and we say we hope not all socialists are as insane.

Farseer Council

((OOC yes I know my nation is a Consumerist paradise or whatever but the Path System does not exist in NS, the Eldar Produce a lot, and yet we don't have a true wealthy elite, or 'Workers' the Workers we do have are simply currently examing that facet of their life, when they become Master Crafters they will leave it and become something else, maybe a Lawyer or Doctor, then they will leave that and become else. Obviously such a system is noit one Violet has ever envisonged))

OOC:I dunno-it was a interesting idea, they've busted the spy and now made SATO look like fools....
sure it was risky, but once the truth came out, war wasnt a realistic option....eh...I just think Tor is trying to earn Pixie points with the pointy ear club.

>>>Transmission to:Menelcamari foreign relations consul <<<
||From: Kaenian Central Command, WorldDisc||
||Re:Decleration of armed conflict ||

The world as you describe stands upon a threshold, a brink at which its ultimate fate and direction is known to no one and hangs by a thread.

One one side, your mighty forces ready themselves once more for battle. Unified and true to their worlds they shall wage war against your enemies. Immense gravtanks shall spray fiery death, loyal and stalwart troops shall push through the dead themselves.

Against you stands those whose very existance seems to contravene everything you have, will and currently believe in. You require no persuasion from this course and it would be foolish to do so. No other, no nation nor goverment nor leader can see the situation as you can. I shall condone nor condemn your actions. You pursue this as you see fit. I admire your dedication to the cause, and though the outcome passes from my understanding or ability to read, I do wish you well in your endevours.

May this, a further shattering of an always fragile peace pass quickly. May the world as we have always hoped it return to some semblance of a peace, no matter how illusionist, in the near future.

May the Angel herself guide you in your endevours lady Sirithil.

Go now, in peace.


Citizen Caelistis,First Citizen.

Kommandant, DEHC Military

Most Serene Union Of Kaenei.

>>>Transmission Terminated<<<

OOC:I dunno-it was a interesting idea, they've busted the spy and now made SATO look like fools....
sure it was risky, but once the truth came out, war wasnt a realistic option....eh...I just think Tor is trying to earn Pixie points with the pointy ear club.

[Risky, yes, but fun fun fun. ]

OOC:I dunno-it was a interesting idea, they've busted the spy and now made SATO look like fools....
sure it was risky, but once the truth came out, war wasnt a realistic option....eh...I just think Tor is trying to earn Pixie points with the pointy ear club.

Can't earn Pixie points there Iesus I am a member of the Pixie Club. No my point is oh never mind I was tired when I wrote that, I do find it far to risky for no reason. If I thought even OOC that the inclusion of Nukes helped the plan I'd clap and say well done. However I canna see how, see I would say a well done plan if it had involved claiming stages One and Two and never mentioned a Nuke. The Inclusion of a Nuke just makes it seem stupid and actually dosn't make Siri look stupid, because if you read the plan they had maybe a day or two at the most to respond to the information...

Think about it, a day or two to prepare for a suppossed Nuclear threat from a source that has the abilty... You don't act slowly in that regards, now Siri has been made to look foolish a little bit but a lot of that effect is lost by the inclusion of nuclear threat, because the nuclear threat means YOU cannot take risks.

Imagine the scenario without the Nuke. siri Boards Boat, civilian unarmed to look for potential Terrorist/spys. None found.

Now with siri Boards Boat, fearing it contained a nuclear warhead...

Which looks worse, both the same situation but the Looking for a Nuclear warhead when one has been threatened is one you have to say is NEVER foolish.

Also Iesus I think you miss my biggest fear, that they where playing with a Plan that might not have reached the Truth stage, what if rather than wait till the people had been arrested and the Truth had came out SATO decided to lauch a Pre-emptive strike in case any other targets where being planned....

That is entirely plausible.

OOC: I'm looking very much forward to see the core WBO/SATO nations such as M and K, or perhaps Sailune respond to this. We're going to show you how we planned all this, together with some logs and screenshots which quite unquestionably proves our case.

Overlord Var'chak speaks in his usual soft tone. It made the listeners actually have to listen to his words and not just hear them. "While this action by Siri angers me, mostly because she is a stuck up, pompus, power hungry elf, I will not interfere with her actions. Now I want to address the leader of SeOOC...

You are scum lowlier than scum. No self respecting leader would stoop to terroristic actions against an enemy to get what you want. The proper way is to grab them by the throat and tell them what you want! Be that in the form of a fleet of bombers or literally grabbing a world leader's throat.

As much as it goes against my inner instincts..." He pauses for nearly five seconds, starting right into the camera. He clearly didn't like the taste of the words in his mouth.

"Lady Sirithil nos Fëanor... you have our... support in this matter."

http://home.earthlink.net/~alpha_zero_usm/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/varchak.jpg
Overlord Var'chak
Supreme Ruler of The Annexed States of Baggera (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=baggera)
Archangel Heavy Industries (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78569)
Arda (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_region/region=arda) Alliance

And, of course, we will tell you ICly, too :)

[Oh, brilliant. Only one side has presented the entirety of their evidence and everybody's just jumping to the elven jackboot.]

"If it's war they want. Then war they shall have. That will teach them to toy with powers beyond their comprehension."

~William's reply to the question "What will you do now?"

[Oh, brilliant. Only one side has presented the entirety of their evidence and everybody's just jumping to the elven jackboot.]Welcome to NS. This how most things work. One side puts out tons of evidence, the other side picks and chooses what to respond to(normally just excuses), the people choose the first side and then we start taking turns kicking the other side.

As Emperor Damon sat in the Imperial Residence watching Siri's tirade he chuckled to himself, "Siri has such a simplistic view of the world. As usual those who disagree with her view of the world are rogues. It seems she will take every opportunity to snipe at us, regardless of the truth. She did not have such problems with SeOCC and us back when she needed our help against the reich.It seems so long ago that we were once all allies against the Reich, oh how times change."

With that the Emperor called the Praetorian Intelligence Agency.
"Keep an eye on this Menelmacar, SeOCC situation, it may affect us all."

The Holy Empress Evendim chuckled at the pile of international incedent reports.

The top was grace by the latest public announcement made by the Lady Siri of Menelmacar; although the Empress was concerned about the WBO and SATO security in the long run, she chose at this period to move the file to the bottom of the pile for later review.

The Empress returned to her garden with her sage tea.

With the total lack of satisfactory intelligence from SATO in all fields, we now see SATO is nothing more than a bunch of 'wild eyed zealots' whom make up evidence to provide them with a cover to launch wars of brutal imperialism.
General Chang Kai
Minister of SATO affairs

semi oocly
'Another SATO wild goose chase....how amusing...wait wait..who am I...
Seocc is going to nuke us...Iraq has weapons of mass destruction....hehe!"
Bridgette Iesus

semi oocly
'Another SATO wild goose chase....how amusing...wait wait..who am I...
Seocc is going to nuke us...Iraq has weapons of mass destruction....hehe!"
Bridgette Iesus

OOCly, you actually made me laugh out loud :lol:

While Vernii is not a supporter of Menelmacar, we hate communists. Any SeOCC citizens in our country have been deported and any contact with that nation is cut off. SeOCC is a non-nation as far as Public Information and the Foreign Ministry are concerned.

Overlord Var'chak speaks in his usual soft tone. It made the listeners actually have to listen to his words and not just hear them. "While this action by Siri angers me, mostly because she is a stuck up, pompus, power hungry elf, I will not interfere with her actions. Now I want to address the leader of SeOOC...

You are scum lowlier than scum. No self respecting leader would stoop to terroristic actions against an enemy to get what you want. The proper way is to grab them by the throat and tell them what you want! Be that in the form of a fleet of bombers or literally grabbing a world leader's throat.

As much as it goes against my inner instincts..." He pauses for nearly five seconds, starting right into the camera. He clearly didn't like the taste of the words in his mouth.

"Lady Sirithil nos Fëanor... you have our... support in this matter."

http://home.earthlink.net/~alpha_zero_usm/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/varchak.jpg
Overlord Var'chak
Supreme Ruler of The Annexed States of Baggera (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=baggera)
Archangel Heavy Industries (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78569)
Arda (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_region/region=arda) Alliance

Baggera, you all right mate? That must have been painful.

*** Encoded Messages to Lady Sirithil nos Fëanor and the leaders of SeOCC ***

As we are loathe to see any unnecessary warfare take place, I would like to offer our capital city as a neutral ground for both sides to hold talks, if you should decide to do so.

President Takeo Katana,
Larkinia

The Pacific Waters Act of 2014 orders the boarding of suspect vessels. Now, if you saw a bunch of hippies in a trawler with no fishing nets and smoking dope, wouldn't you be suspicious? I sure as hell would.

As for the n00k incident: The gieger counter was picking up something else, perhaps just a sample rock that might have fallen.

However, the Seocc government is suspected to have ordered this bluff and send this vessel and its crew on Skargarden Monitoring. It was also their intention to use nuclear warheads on SATO/WBO forces, and it was suspected that this vessel was carrying this weapon[or weapons]. For suspicious acts, and a possible threat to global security, not only did Ruhrian Naval Doctrine order the immediate boarding and inspection of the vessel, but international laws permits this inspection.

On that note, for my hard troubles, the vessel will remain a part of the Ruhrian Imperial Navy. The RNS Night Sky expended too much fuel for this to be a failed foiling. After the sailors and crew are interogated for terrorist allegations, they will be returned to Seocc pending the suspects are proven innocent. If the Defence Intelligence Agency declares the intentions of the crew was to enter Skargarden territorial seas and prepare for the use of weapons of mass destruction, Ruhr will jail the crew members suspected of these allegations.

Also Seocc, as a personal note, I am going to enjoy your trawler. Hell, I am going to make it the first nuclear powered trawler in use. It will certainly be the best one out there, and I am sure you won't mind me confiscating it. Don't worry, it will be used to catch as much dolphin, whales, and things you hippies love to protect. It will be the only one Ruhr has, and it will certainly be successful at what it does. Once again, thank you very much for my new ship bringing Ruhrian Capital Ship total to 731. Yes, capital ship...this vessel, with a nuclear engine and pro'lly a five inch gun, will be the heaviest armed and fastest trawler on the seas.

Have a nice day.

Jack Fady
Ruhrian Minister of Defence

OOC:I dunno-it was a interesting idea, they've busted the spy and now made SATO look like fools....
sure it was risky, but once the truth came out, war wasnt a realistic option....eh...I just think Tor is trying to earn Pixie points with the pointy ear club.

ooc- Eh, looks more like the usual faire of recon and backpedal. Then again, what did anyone expect?

Might as well end it now. Yar, yar, SeOCC's right, he's always right... pretty soon he'll forget how to use capital letters, and be throwing around how he knows more about economics than God.

OOC:I dunno-it was a interesting idea, they've busted the spy and now made SATO look like fools....
sure it was risky, but once the truth came out, war wasnt a realistic option....eh...I just think Tor is trying to earn Pixie points with the pointy ear club.

ooc- Eh, looks more like the usual faire of recon and backpedal. Then again, what did anyone expect?

Might as well end it now. Yar, yar, SeOCC's right, he's always right... pretty soon he'll forget how to use capital letters, and be throwing around how he knows more about economics than God.

OOC: Well we knew we would be accused of this, and I can assure you it isn't backpedalling. W have the whole thing documented in a forum none of the WBO knows about and we're prepared to open it up to adjudication if our RP is called into question.

If the best you can do is say "Seocc is right, he's always right" then why don't you go away and come back when you have something better.

If anyone doubts the veracity of this then I'll state now (believe I did earlier anyway) that as well as Seocc, Xikuang, Anhierarch, Free Socialism, and myself were all involved in puting this plot together. We didn't just make it up.

Baggera, you all right mate? That must have been painful.Well... when someone resorst to nukes and debasing currancy, it stops being evil and becomes pitiful. And I don't have a lot of pity, so...

Baggera, you all right mate? That must have been painful.Well... when someone resorst to nukes and debasing currancy, it stops being evil and becomes pitiful. And I don't have a lot of pity, so...

I don't see any nukes, do you. :roll:

{ASCETIC TUNNELS ARCOLOGY-PRIMARY NODE ACTIVE}
{OPEN LINK ESTABLISHED}
{VIDEO TRANSMISSION INITIATED}

Concerned parties everywhere;

It is with some dismay with which I have observed this broadcast and subsequent debate. Previous ties to seOCC initially led me to sympathize with said state; however, in light of the extensive and damning evidence honoured Lady Sirithil has presented , I cannot with all due concience offer any support to this Machiavellian regime.

However, past treaties and agreements do nessecitate some sympathetic action for our erstwhile ally; while we will not support or aid you directly, we are prepared to offer asylum to both your current administration and any civilians who wish to flee. We are prepared to evacuate 100 000 within a week, possibly five times that by the end of the month.

Should you wish to accept our offer, do not hesitate to respond.

With some regret,

Ambrose the Advocate
Lord Regent of Mallberta
http://www.darkpages.de/images/giger3.jpg

{VIDEO TRANSMISSION TERMINATED}
{ASCETIC TUNNELS ARCOLOGY-PRIMARY NODE INACTIVE}

Second that: there is no nukes. And, anyway, might I remind about certain nuclear terrorism attempts in one of our allies?

That is the charge against SeOOC. I would love to see evidence proving the claim and evidence disproving the claim. Untill then...

I live up to my name.

-The Annexed States of Baggera

Second that: there is no nukes. And, anyway, might I remind about certain nuclear terrorism attempts in one of our allies?

Thirded on both counts.

#17 Jameston Place
Ianapalis, Iansisle, the Commonwealth

Rain beat down on the ancient meeting place of Parliament, enriched by the layer of soot that was still pumping out of every factory in the industrial sector of the city. Prime Minister Hiresh Dhawan removed his top hat as he walked into a full meeting of Iansisle’s ministers, top military men, and parliamentary leadership. He sat at the head of the long table, Minister of Foreign Affairs Lord MacIntyre on one hand; Minister of War Lord Javial on the other.

The authoritative-looking Gallagan Prime Minister glanced about the worried, assembled faces and cleared his throats. “Gentlemen, Minister MacIntyre has already been kind enough to bring me up to speed on the events thus far between the CACE and the WBO and SATO, so please spare me the general overview. What I called this meeting for was to discuss Iansisle’s response to the deteriorating situation about the globe.” Halfway down the left side of the table, and old man cleared his throat and asked permission to speak. “Yes, Grand Admiral Tri?”

The fifty two year old First Sea Lord, his once brilliant red hair grayed by age and the harsh treatment of life in His Majesty’s Navy before joining the Admiralty, stood up and cleared his throat. “With all due respect, Minister, I feel that the best response to this situation would be nothing at all. What with the trouble we’re being given in Gallaga and our future commitments to Walmington on Sea’s campaigns, as well as the escort duties the R.I.N. has already assumed for EGC shipping, we can’t afford to become embroiled in this conflict, on either side.”

As Tri sat back down, Minister Reginald Staples, the Weshieldian leader of the Iansislean Democratic-Socialist Party, stood and started speaking. “Minister Dhawan, clearly a lack of response from His Majesty’s Government would be the absolute worst thi-”

Dhawan interrupted Staples sharply. “I would remind Minister Staples that I have, as yet, not recognized him to speak, and would suggest that he follow proper procedures, or else find himself removed from these proceedings.” Staples blushed a bright red, and regained his seat. “Thank you,” smiled Dhawan, but there was no trace of humor in his expression.

“Minister Dhawan, I request permission to speak,” tried Staples once again, his eyes glaring at the Gallagan Prime Minster. Dhawan nodded, and Staples rose again. “As I was saying, Minister, a lack of response from His Majesty’s Government would undermine Iansislean interests across the globe, and call into question our claim as a great power. This issue must be put before a full meeting of the Combined Parliament.”

At the far end of the table, another hand when up. Dhawan nodded at the energetic young Gadsanian leader of the Iansislean Prosperity Party. Prosperity had taken a real beating in the last general election, losing seventy of its one hundred and seven pre-election seats, and the party leadership had decided it was time to put a new face on. That face belonged to one George M. Graye, twenty two year old son of Graye Aeroflyers, Inc., founder Irvin G. Graye. George had been just a little pre-teenager when his father became the first Iansislean in history to buzz about in a domestically designed and produced aeroflyer, cementing his name in the history books. Of course, subsequent troubles with his father and the company’s chief engineer made Minister of Space Ernie Bankfield instinctively wary of the younger Graye.

“Thank you, Prime Minister,” said Graye, standing as he was recognized. “I believe submitting this issue to a full session of Parliament would be the absolute worst thing we could do, especially with this dreadful business in Gallaga going on. Grand Admiral Tri may be right; Iansisle cannot afford any more foreign crises, especially in one that is so unrelated to our core interests across the globe...”

Graye and everyone else in the room looked to the side suddenly as there was a brief knock on the door, then Subminister for Foreign Affairs Edwards walked through, handing a slip of paper to Minister Lord MacIntyre. The slight Vesshamptoner read the note, smiled, and passed it onto Dhawan. “A message from the New Highlands wire, sir. I think you’ll find it most interesting.”

“Indeed I do, Minister,” replied Dhawan, reading the brief note quickly. He then stood up, and took his top hat into his hand. “Gentlemen, I believe this concludes our meeting. President Katana of Larkinia has just sent out a request for a peace conference to be held in Golden Agate. We can make sure we have an official position on this key issue, and do so without violating neutrality and supporting a fellow New Highlands state.” He placed his hat atop his head, then nodded at MacIntyre. “Minister, if you’d care to join me, I’d like to get an official diplomatic communique together as soon as possible in support of President Katana’s request.”

“Of course, Prime Minister,” replied the Foreign Affairs Minister, nodding at Edwards to join them.

Baggera, you all right mate? That must have been painful.Well... when someone resorst to nukes and debasing currancy, it stops being evil and becomes pitiful. And I don't have a lot of pity, so...

Oh. For a moment I thought you had chosen the same route I had, doing evil in the service of good. :lol:

Baggera, you all right mate? That must have been painful.Well... when someone resorst to nukes and debasing currancy, it stops being evil and becomes pitiful. And I don't have a lot of pity, so...

Oh. For a moment I thought you had chosen the same route I had, doing evil in the service of good. :lol:

Please no more OOC Posting, I believe there already is a thread for that.

"I will be happy to send you support, Menelmacar, yet only of the verbal kind unfortunately. Due to the mysterious happenings (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2045307#2045307) involving our Commander of the Imperial Fleet and Marines, we are left without the required leadership to provide further assistance. Be assured, that if this situation becomes more grave, we will be ready."

http://invisionfree.com:54/43/101/upload/p1.gif
Emperor Alexander Nemerov
Star Empire of Steel Butterfly
Steel Isle, Steel Moon,
CTaNbHaR Eabo4Ka, XIII
Orion Sector Premier,
Order of the Seraphim,
(Un-named Trade Consortium)

OOC NOTE: Take that statement at face value...do not read into it at all...there are reasons for everything.

If you have no clue why I'm saying this...don't pay attention.

OOC NOTE: Take that statement at face value...do not read into it at all...there are reasons for everything.

If you have no clue why I'm saying this...don't pay attention.


"We are confused as to why Nemerov chooses to act this way... yet, we are sure it is for the right reasons."

Once again, war clouds gather. But there is no need for war, none at all. No one should be choosing any sides, except the side of peace. We call on both sides to accept the invitation to peace talks in Larkinia. We also repeat our suggestion, made before this play of brinksmanship, for both sides to stay well away from the other's coasts.

Violeta Bi Bere
People's representative for foreign affairs & human rights

Jessica frowned, reading the reports, "Oh dear... this isn't good." She place an emergency communique to Section 3 to pump up information gathering.

Moments after the request was received, Mikhael executed a series of commands into his terminal. High above the planet satellites began to reallign, while simultaniously low-laying sleeper agents were activated. Mikhael smiled darkly, "Hope they remember their training... it's been awhile..."

---

Jessica stood at the lecturn, looking at the assembled press. She wasn't used to this. Normally, she sent messages to world leaders, or simply talked with her team, in her comfortable WBO office. Dealing with the press was an altogether different animal. One she didn't much look forward too. For once she was glad that the Hack's intelligence agency had been slacking off. Since they didn't know much, aside from Lady Siri's address, and the responces by some CACE members, she'd be able to get away with 'no questions'. This time.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the press. This will just be a brief announcement of our position and intent, regarding the possible violations of international law by CACE in general, and SeOCC in particular.

"As many of you are aware, I am Jessica Hawthorne, the Hack's delegate to the WBO, which is why I was asked to make this address.

"Members of the WBO and SATO have reason to believe that CACE and SeOCC were planing to detonate a nuclear device while SATO conducted wargames in a neighboring country of SeOCC. Many in my office were not surprized to hear such claims, given the legendary paranoia of SeOCC's 'leaders'.

"However, many CACE nations, including SeOCC, have stepped forward, claiming the entire operation was a ruse to try and flush out a spy or mole. The Hack is currently undertaking operations to try and ferret out where the truth actually resides, although we find the thought of threatening nuclear war against so large an organization as SATO to be a sign of complete and utter madness.

"Should the allegations of Menelmacar reveal themselves to be true, we will provide logistical support to SATO. That is all we will provide. We do not wish war, nor are we a member of SATO, so we would not mobilize troops.

"Should the claims of CACE reveal themselves to be true, we will leave this issue. However, should they be true, we would strongly urge the entirety of the world to shun and eschew all dealings with SeOCC, or any CACE or CACE-affiliated nations. Taking such gambles is not the sign of a stable government. Nor should any governments who align themselves with such lunatics be interacted with. Their paranoia has made them pariahs. We are simply thankful that SATO was restrained with their responce. Such a gambit could have easily lead to a very messy, bloody, and radioactive war.

"Finally, in closing, I fear that it is my duty to report that as of one hour ago, the Senate approved a bill to expel all non-citizen immigrants from any CACE nation. President Solis will be signing the bill into law immediately after my remarks. We undertake this action with a heavy heart, as we know that many of these immigrants were trying to escape to the freedom of capitalism, but we simply cannot allow citizens from such an unstable alliance to remain within our borders. They may reapply for entry, but under much tighter guildlines, and more extenisve background searches. We hope the Greater Federation might be willing to take them in, as they are better equipped to handle such issues, but we leave that decision to the Supreme Commander.

"That is all." Jessica takes a breath, and leave forwards toward the microphones a split second before the first question can be shouted, "No questions, please." She gathers up her notes and leaves.

OOC: Siri, I don't want to send you a telle because it will just get knocked out of your box, but I do need to talk to you if you come online. Needless to say, King Will has been crusading against Communism for sometime, you have his support..in secret for now.

EDIT: Actually situations are changing and being a realistic RPer, I cannot guarantee anything at this point. I will have to see what happens when it happens to determine Will's reaction to it.

"tag, you're it"

[Federation External Affairs department]

As she tended to, Annie was sitting on Rachel's desk. She grinned, 'So, what stops the Speaker for Ext Aff from going out for a drink this evening?'

Rachel sighs, 'Situation in Aperin...The Supreme Commander wants us to issue a statement on behalf of the Federation...Any ideas?'

'"Rawr?"'

'Oh, very helpful...'

[Or *Tag*, as it's generally known.]

Der Angst, The associate tower, home of the 'association of incorporated and private enterprises:

"This is... fascinating." William Clark watched the news, highly amused. "Who would have though CACE would be able to ignore the entirety of our evidence, only bashing on the nuke incident."
"Well..." This was Althena, sipping from her cup of tea. "It´s not a real surprise... but that others follow them... I mean... we showed the world evidence that CACE supports terrorism, that CACE planned to destroy the global economy with the help of Pure Evil... and so much other stuff... And nobody seems to be interested."
"It doesn´t matter." Replied Aramaki. "We can always use this evidence in... well, 'tiny pieces', if there is need to do it. And we shouldn´t care about The Reich, they`re mostly psychos which ignore anything not working with their ideology."
"True." Mr. Morden smiled, as always. "So, i presume we work on. We worked hard for it, and finally, we could reveal what we worked for. They believe they have scored a victory while the truth is that we are now able to give up all restrains."

They talked the whole night, making plans, preparing for the future... It was an interesting night.

The CBC newsroom was going crazy. Journalists, pundits, commentators, camera operators, technicians of all all descriptions had been pulled in as soon as the word that "there's something big about to go down" was given.

The word went out on the international newswires that the CACE was about to give a press conference, and the broadcast would be made available throughout the world.

The CACE spokesperson stepped up to the podium to address the waiting journalists.

Followed on here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91160).

The Black Iron Imperium of Axackal II, which is ruled by God On Earth, Black Empress Helena Cocytus-Black, believes that the evil race of elves, ruled by the dark witch Siri are attempting to create any and all excuses they can to go to war against the human race for the sole purpose of enslaving the human race, SeoCC has Axackal II support against the evil Satan Siri and against the evil elvish race.


http://arcticnightfall.com/sailormoon/images/sub/characters/mn_lady.jpg
The Black Empress Helena Cocytus-Black
Seek Freedom and become captive of your desires, Seek discipline and find your liberty.
The Black Iron Imperium of Axackal II
OOC: It's too bad Axackal II is ruled by Melkor and Helena's in exile, eh?

~Siri

Bumpo.

OOC: *notes all the other evidence provided still stands and that SeOCC willingly ICly provoked nuclear conflict to smoke out a spy he already knew OOCly was there.* :roll:

The next day, the newspaper Trouw.

Knootoss pulls back from the brink!
Red button nearly pressed

KNOOTCAP – The world narrowly avoided an all-out nuclear conflict yesterday as Knootian government hastily aborted a full-scale retaliatory strike against SeOCC at the last moment. Intelligence information from reliable sources suggesting that a nuclear weapon was being smuggled into Skargarden by terrorists openly supported by the SeOCC government proved to be false. When the nuclear weapon was not found the government could only assume that the terrorists had succeeded in slipping through the coalition lines and had already placed the weapon. A statement by the rogue state’s officials came just in the nick of time, as both the Prime Minister and other key officials had already authorised for the use of weapons of mass destruction against the SeOCC. This nation has recently been classified as a ‘rogue nation’ for openly supporting terrorist organisations such as the Volunteer Army, plotting to destabilize world economies and cracking down on freedom by force.

A shocked government representative issued a strong condemnation of the SeOCC government for playing bluff poker with the lives of billions of people by deliberately planting false information regarding an imminent nuclear strike. The representative said: “I shudder to think what would have happened when their statement had come twenty-five minutes later. Aperin would have been a nuclear wasteland and the world would probably be engaging in an all out thermonuclear conflict right now.”

In answer to questions by journalists, the representative freely admitted that the boarding of the SeOCC ‘marine biology’ trawler by the Ruhrian Imperial Navy was, “a regrettable mistake in retrospective” but she immediately added that the response was “completely justified and legitimate given the extreme circumstances.” She called upon the Naval Waters act and cited this as a situation of ‘clear and present danger’. Later she explained: “With the knowledge we possessed back then we would have done the same thing again. We had every reason to believe that the lives of millions of Skargardians and hundreds of thousands of SATO forces were at stake. We would not want to be remembered as those who knew of the impending danger but did not act.”

However despite these words the huge intelligence blunder is having it’s fallout back home. The head of the General Intelligence and Security Agency (AIVD) voluntary stepped down two hours after the announcement was made. However it is highly likely that his resignation would have been forced anyway. Responses from political parties were generally shocked and enraged about the whole situation.

All parties have blamed the AIVD for failing and called for increased funding to the intelligence organisation which had been facing cutbacks in recent years. But where SLP, RCPK and KEP clearly lay blame on the SeOCC government for this crisis the green KGP called this evidence of the folly of war and possessing nuclear weapons.
Green leader Femke Halsema repeated her parties view that Knootoss should disarm its nukes and sign the non-proliferation treaty. More conservative members however have provided a different solution, suggesting that this near-incident is a sign that Knootoss should seek to strengthen relations within the SATO bulwark. In the short to medium term the incident further disturbs the already fragile liberal/green coalition.
[continues on page 2 and 3]

EDIT: extra OOC note. This would have been a retalliatory strike had the "nuke" gone off.

ooc: K i think the shock has fried your brain because you've got your timeline seriously crossed here.

Ruhr's little raid couldn't have taken more than an hour, a RP that Ruhr has yet to finish. now the diplomatic exchanges that have been flying must have taken days, so how could it be that you had your finger on the trigger until we explained when Ruhr hasn't finished his investigation?

think about it: i can guarantee that by the end of Ruhr's RP it will be crystal clear that there was never a nuke on that trailer. how? because EVERY DIVER WILL COME BACK TO THE SHIP. and no matter how quick you think they can swim they could not have covered all that distance (look at the map and see where the DMZ between Skargarden and SeOCC is in relation to the eastern coast of Skargarden) in one day.

so while your little article is all nice and inflamatory and stuff, it kind of makes no sense.

and frankly i'm getting sick of this whole 'SeOCC threatened nuclear war' thing. seriously, you guys got ONCE PIECE OF INTELLIGENCE that you NEVER FOLLOWED UP ON. what if we changed our mind? what if, forgetting to tell Sailune (assuming we thought they were on the up and up) we pulled out the operatives? did you ever consider that?

i don't mind exchanging insults and arguments but you guys are just making stuff up. as i've said, i can't defend myself when my accusers have no evidence to support their arguments. same goes for the VA stuff; how about you reply ic to my explanations before you keep going with this crap.

OOC:

By definition, moving on the trawler would be considered following up. Unless by 'follow up' you wanted us to call you up and ask. "Hey, are you guys actually giving nukes to terrorists? See, we intercepted this message..."

Oh, wait, you're not talking to us...

~Siri

By definition, moving on the trawler would be considered following up. Unless by 'follow up' you wanted us to call you up and ask. "Hey, are you guys actually giving nukes to terrorists? See, we intercepted this message..."

ooc: i can't believe this is what you ooc think. did you guys ever consider not approaching the trawler with guns raised?

seriously, think about what a REAL nation would do. they would go in as if they knew nothing, follow international law to the t (which you did not do), asked permission without guns raised (since under the barrel of a gun all decisions are coerced), and then searched the boat.

and then, let me remind you, you RPed my actions for me with your welcome party for the non-existent frogmen.

we're going to keep hounding you on why you came in with guns raised and we're not accepting 'well you said there was a nuke so we had the right.' if we got 'intel' that one of your supply boats had a nuke on it, and we tried to board it, what would you do?

that's what i thought.

I think I can make public the little security leak, as it was all false anyway. This is exactly what was leaked by SeOCC to the spy:


This message serves two purposes, to bring our intentions to the attention of those goverments we trust absolutely, and to seek sanction to follow through on our plans.

The EDWD has suggested, and the Ministers currently favor, the placement of nuclear weapons within the EDWD tunnels beneath SeOCC. If an invasion were to take place we would evacuate as much as possible, leave behind a volunteer force to hold the line (this would be made, willingly, of primarily VA members), and essentially surrender SeOCC's territory. The WBO will invariably move to occupy SeOCC en masse and at that time we would move the nuclear weapons to the surface and detonate them, destroying all of Metro SeOCC. This would both halt the invasion, since they would have lost huge amounts of manpower and hardware, and serve to slow any further aggression they might consider.

Having shown the, frankly, irrational lengths we will go to to prevent defeat they will be unlikely to attempt occupation of any other CACE territory.

Again, we do not believe they will attack, we believe this is an attempt to frighten us, but the EDWD is quite adamant that we must prepare for this contingency. Thinking on the grand scale, there will be little life lost and property is only property, and can be recovered. We have requested Celdonia to move nuclear weapons into SeOCC for this purpose and have yet to recieve an official reply as to whether our request will be met. Until we do we wish to hear your thoughts on this rather unbalanced plan. Desperate times you know.


Some points I'd like to make about this information, with the proviso that it's all fake:

* The nuclear device, if it had existed a all, was to be detonated only after an invasion on SeOCC had been launched. If no invasion on SeOCC had been planned, if nobody ever intended to set foot in SeOCC, then nobody need to have taken any notice. Even if it had been true, this would have been, as is quite explicit, a reaction to an invasion already in progress, not an act of terrorism.

* The nuclear device, if it had existed, would have been used in Metro SeOCC, not Skargarden.

* Allegations that SeOCC is in violation of the nuclear proliferation clause in the CACE charter are groundless, as the Charter is explicit that nations already in possession of nuclear arsenals may keep them but are strogly encouraged to disarm them in the future. The weapon involved was specifically requested to come from Celdonia, which does have a nuclear arsenal.

Of course, I don't know in what form the information was revealed to those involved. Perhaps Sailune got it wrong, but we can't be responsible for that.

-Elected General Councillor Sarekh Djijirin, Chair of the Elected General Committee for National Security

I think I can make public the little security leak, as it was all false anyway. This is exactly what was leaked by SeOCC to the spy:


This message serves two purposes, to bring our intentions to the attention of those goverments we trust absolutely, and to seek sanction to follow through on our plans.

The EDWD has suggested, and the Ministers currently favor, the placement of nuclear weapons within the EDWD tunnels beneath SeOCC. If an invasion were to take place we would evacuate as much as possible, leave behind a volunteer force to hold the line (this would be made, willingly, of primarily VA members), and essentially surrender SeOCC's territory. The WBO will invariably move to occupy SeOCC en masse and at that time we would move the nuclear weapons to the surface and detonate them, destroying all of Metro SeOCC. This would both halt the invasion, since they would have lost huge amounts of manpower and hardware, and serve to slow any further aggression they might consider.

Having shown the, frankly, irrational lengths we will go to to prevent defeat they will be unlikely to attempt occupation of any other CACE territory.

Again, we do not believe they will attack, we believe this is an attempt to frighten us, but the EDWD is quite adamant that we must prepare for this contingency. Thinking on the grand scale, there will be little life lost and property is only property, and can be recovered. We have requested Celdonia to move nuclear weapons into SeOCC for this purpose and have yet to recieve an official reply as to whether our request will be met. Until we do we wish to hear your thoughts on this rather unbalanced plan. Desperate times you know.


Some points I'd like to make about this information, with the proviso that it's all fake:

* The nuclear device, if it had existed a all, was to be detonated only after an invasion on SeOCC had been launched. If no invasion on SeOCC had been planned, if nobody ever intended to set foot in SeOCC, then nobody need to have taken any notice. Even if it had been true, this would have been, as is quite explicit, a reaction to an invasion already in progress, not an act of terrorism.

* The nuclear device, if it had existed, would have been used in Metro SeOCC, not Skargarden.

* Allegations that SeOCC is in violation of the nuclear proliferation clause in the CACE charter are groundless, as the Charter is explicit that nations already in possession of nuclear arsenals may keep them but are strogly encouraged to disarm them in the future. The weapon involved was specifically requested to come from Celdonia, which does have a nuclear arsenal.

Of course, I don't know in what form the information was revealed to those involved. Perhaps Sailune got it wrong, but we can't be responsible for that.

-Elected General Councillor Sarekh Djijirin, Chair of the Elected General Committee for National Security
OOC: Actually, the false PM quite specifically stated that the weapon was to be planted in Skargarden.

Yeah, I saw the thing about the warhead coming from Celdonia, note that I mentioned it in my allegations post.

As for the thing about the nuclear weapon to be detonated only after an invasion began, that's pretty stupid... it's still an act of war to plant the weapon in the first place. Unless of course you're okay with me planting a nuclear weapon in your capital - but don't worry, I'll only set it off if you invade someone! ;)

~Siri

Allright, as this is for public benefit, I'll respond directly.

The PM I saw-- the one SeOCC sent-- specifically stated it was to be stationd in SeOCC. Like I said, we can't be responsible if someone gets our misinformation wrong.

The taking of defensive measures in the face of a perceived threat does not constitute an act of war. Hypothetically speaking, if I am threatened with invasion, and I ready my military and my weapons, that I have, in my nation, if I mobilise my allies, whom I believe also to be under threat, if I am prepared to blow up my own country to protect them, that is not an act of war.

An invasion provoking my response is an act of war. My preparing for an invasion is not an act of war.

Yours,

Councillor Sarekh

The taking of defensive measures in the face of a perceived threat does not constitute an act of war.

OOC: Like, say, boarding a trawler you suspect might contain a nuclear device? 8)

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Allright, as this is for public benefit, I'll respond directly.

The PM I saw-- the one SeOCC sent-- specifically stated it was to be stationd in SeOCC. Like I said, we can't be responsible if someone gets our misinformation wrong.

The taking of defensive measures in the face of a perceived threat does not constitute an act of war. Hypothetically speaking, if I am threatened with invasion, and I ready my military and my weapons, that I have, in my nation, if I mobilise my allies, whom I believe also to be under threat, if I am prepared to blow up my own country to protect them, that is not an act of war.

An invasion provoking my response is an act of war. My preparing for an invasion is not an act of war.

Yours,

Councillor Sarekh
You could always go to my site, where a copy of the message and a screenie of the original both say - and I quote:

The third will, with the nuclear device, set it near the DMZ, which is the most likely route for ground forces to enter SeOCC since our defenses there are weak. The device will be detonated when their main force begins the land drive, and will be totally obliterated before they even set foot in SeOCC.
Now, were the weapon to be placed in SeOCC there would be no need for the subterfuge involving trawlers and frogmen, since SeOCC could just put the bomb in a truck and put it where they want it. Further, it states they would be obliterated before setting foot in SeOCC, which suggests a location outside SeOCC. Further, placing the weapon in SeOCC, assuming you're right, would make the SeOCC government every bit as callous and uncaring towards its own population as we've been stating for most of this thread, and no less unfit to rule.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/sirithil/sirithilnosfeanor.gifLady Sirithil nos Fëanor
Elentári of the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar
Regent of Lavenrunz, Chancellor of CENNA
"We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. We will see freedom's victory."
~US President George W. Bush
We Love the Iraqi Information Minister (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com)
Clicky-clicky!

Allright, as this is for public benefit, I'll respond directly.

The PM I saw-- the one SeOCC sent-- specifically stated it was to be stationd in SeOCC. Like I said, we can't be responsible if someone gets our misinformation wrong.

The taking of defensive measures in the face of a perceived threat does not constitute an act of war. Hypothetically speaking, if I am threatened with invasion, and I ready my military and my weapons, that I have, in my nation, if I mobilise my allies, whom I believe also to be under threat, if I am prepared to blow up my own country to protect them, that is not an act of war.

An invasion provoking my response is an act of war. My preparing for an invasion is not an act of war.

Yours,

Councillor Sarekh
You could always go to my site, where a copy of the message and a screenie of the original both say - and I quote:

The third will, with the nuclear device, set it near the DMZ, which is the most likely route for ground forces to enter SeOCC since our defenses there are weak. The device will be detonated when their main force begins the land drive, and will be totally obliterated before they even set foot in SeOCC.
Now, were the weapon to be placed in SeOCC there would be no need for the subterfuge involving trawlers and frogmen, since SeOCC could just put the bomb in a truck and put it where they want it. Further, it states they would be obliterated before setting foot in SeOCC, which suggests a location outside SeOCC. Further, placing the weapon in SeOCC, assuming you're right, would make the SeOCC government every bit as callous and uncaring towards its own population as we've been stating for most of this thread, and no less unfit to rule.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/sirithil/sirithilnosfeanor.gifLady Sirithil nos Fëanor
Elentári of the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar
Regent of Lavenrunz, Chancellor of CENNA
"We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. We will see freedom's victory."
~US President George W. Bush
We Love the Iraqi Information Minister (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com)
Clicky-clicky!

ooc: You're right, I concur, my bad. Inbox very full, what I posted was probably a first draft and I didn't look over my archives enough, and I'm also trying to do housework and make dinner; mutitasking leads to carelessness. Sorry. I'll have to check with SeOCC, but I'm still not sure about the placement of the bomb. He, alas, is not online just now, so I can't, but I trust this confusion wll be cleared up shortly.

However, regarding the alleged callousness of the SeOCC government: did you not notice the evacuation of SeOCC of all civilians not explicitly volunteering to remain?

Allright, as this is for public benefit, I'll respond directly.

The PM I saw-- the one SeOCC sent-- specifically stated it was to be stationd in SeOCC. Like I said, we can't be responsible if someone gets our misinformation wrong.

The taking of defensive measures in the face of a perceived threat does not constitute an act of war. Hypothetically speaking, if I am threatened with invasion, and I ready my military and my weapons, that I have, in my nation, if I mobilise my allies, whom I believe also to be under threat, if I am prepared to blow up my own country to protect them, that is not an act of war.

An invasion provoking my response is an act of war. My preparing for an invasion is not an act of war.

Yours,

Councillor Sarekh
You could always go to my site, where a copy of the message and a screenie of the original both say - and I quote:

The third will, with the nuclear device, set it near the DMZ, which is the most likely route for ground forces to enter SeOCC since our defenses there are weak. The device will be detonated when their main force begins the land drive, and will be totally obliterated before they even set foot in SeOCC.
Now, were the weapon to be placed in SeOCC there would be no need for the subterfuge involving trawlers and frogmen, since SeOCC could just put the bomb in a truck and put it where they want it. Further, it states they would be obliterated before setting foot in SeOCC, which suggests a location outside SeOCC. Further, placing the weapon in SeOCC, assuming you're right, would make the SeOCC government every bit as callous and uncaring towards its own population as we've been stating for most of this thread, and no less unfit to rule.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/sirithil/sirithilnosfeanor.gifLady Sirithil nos Fëanor
Elentári of the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar
Regent of Lavenrunz, Chancellor of CENNA
"We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. We will see freedom's victory."
~US President George W. Bush
We Love the Iraqi Information Minister (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com)
Clicky-clicky!

ooc: You're right, I concur, my bad. Inbox very full, what I posted was probably a first draft and I didn't look over my archives enough, and I'm also trying to do housework and make dinner; mutitasking leads to carelessness. Sorry. I'll have to check with SeOCC, but I'm still not sure about the placement of the bomb. He, alas, is not online just now, so I can't, but I trust this confusion wll be cleared up shortly.

However, regarding the alleged callousness of the SeOCC government: did you not notice the evacuation of SeOCC of all civilians not explicitly volunteering to remain?

I liked the first draft better. :?

The information that Lady Sithril provides is disturbing, to say the least. Normally we wouldn't hesitate in shoving a nuclear warhead down SeOCC's throat for attempting to attack our ally Omz222 in such a manner, but we find ourselves with minimal assets within Sol System and none of the aforementioned nuclear warheads on what assets we do have in-system.

What will happen is the preparation of a battlemech division and three mechanized infantry divisions for deployment. While this is happening the First Lord's council will be gathered to discuss what to do about this situation.

The information that Lady Sithril provides is disturbing, to say the least. Normally we wouldn't hesitate in shoving a nuclear warhead down SeOCC's throat for attempting to attack our ally Omz222 in such a manner, but we find ourselves with minimal assets within Sol System and none of the aforementioned nuclear warheads on what assets we do have in-system.

What will happen is the preparation of a battlemech division and three mechanized infantry divisions for deployment. While this is happening the First Lord's council will be gathered to discuss what to do about this situation.

OOC Note: not just Omz. I am also in the UNAOTO. While we are not pushing for war, thank you for the show of support.

OOC:

By definition, moving on the trawler would be considered following up. Unless by 'follow up' you wanted us to call you up and ask. "Hey, are you guys actually giving nukes to terrorists? See, we intercepted this message..."

ooc: i can't believe this is what you ooc think. did you guys ever consider not approaching the trawler with guns raised?

seriously, think about what a REAL nation would do. they would go in as if they knew nothing, follow international law to the t (which you did not do), asked permission without guns raised (since under the barrel of a gun all decisions are coerced), and then searched the boat.

and then, let me remind you, you RPed my actions for me with your welcome party for the non-existent frogmen.

we're going to keep hounding you on why you came in with guns raised and we're not accepting 'well you said there was a nuke so we had the right.' if we got 'intel' that one of your supply boats had a nuke on it, and we tried to board it, what would you do?

that's what i thought.

From "Blind Man's Bluff: The untold story of American submarine espionage" by Sherry Sontag and Christopher Drew (with Annette Lawrence Drew), page 321:

(regarding trawlers the USSR used to use to track US submarines)


Mostly, the trawlers just sat there, but sometimes they were downright brazen. That was the case in 1979 when the crew of one trawler operating near Guam reached out and grabbed a torpedo fired in a practice round by a US missile sub, USS Sam Houston (SSBN-609). The trawler just rushed up, made the snatch, then began heading in a slow crawl back to the Soviet Union. Operational commanders were dumbstruck. They were also at a loss at just what to do. After some debate, they decided that sometimes there is no alternative to sending an obvious message, a show of military force to make sure no other Soviet vessel ever tried anything this audacious again.

Within twelve hours, two aircraft carrier battle groups were sent from Yokosuka and the Philippines to corner the trawler. A day or two later, the trawler was boxed in outside of Okinawa. By now....

Two aircraft carrier battle groups!!!

So you were saying something about what real nations would/n't do???

ooc: oh my god you guys are making this way to complicated. it's really quite simple.

1) there was talk, ic, of putting nukes underneath SeOCC as a last ditch to stop the WBO/SATO guys from just stomping across Aperin. it was not executed; i discussed getting the nukes with C but never RPed placing them, therefore they were not placed. the plan was basically discarded when A pointed out that if i detonated nukes defensively no one would care and it would give the WBO/SATO a reason to nuke the rest of the CACE. it was a good point and i abandoned the plan, as would anyone.

2) X is right, there was no one left but people who volunteered to stay, so there is no callousness re: my population about anything. they were safely tucked away in neutral ACPB nations or in CACE nations with actual defenses (also: some of them went to X, whose defense is yaks).

3) there was a TOTALLY BOGUS plot re: the trawler. now let's be clear on this because nobody remembered, it seemed, to save a copy of that PM. if someone has it, post it. the BOGUS plot was to plant a nuke near the DMZ where enemy troops would have to pass to invade SeOCC by land. now if you look at the map, and this is actually quite funny, you'll notice how bad a plan this is. link to the map here (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE/index.php?showtopic=323). it's not marked on this map, but Skargarden is made up of two peices, the big one with the peninsula and the smaller one to the south of SeOCC. the latter is where the DMZ is. now why would we sail all the way to the other side of Skargarden to plant a bomb in an area hundreds of kilometers away?

So look, ooc, on the table, this is how it goes. There was plan to have nukes in SeOCC, the plan sucked, I scrapped it. You guys no about the trawler plan, which was always bogus and baseless. Seriously, whatever you think of us we’re solid Rpers, and if you’d investigated you would have found out nothing was up. But you didn’t, so here we are. Now let’s just all agree on these facts, because I’m not yanking you around, and move on.

now, re: what Wazzu was talking about i don't disagree. two differences.

1) the trawler was witnessed to have nicked the torpedo. this trawler was witnessed to have done NOTHING illegal. all action and divers remained in international waters at all times. this is an ic detail no one in tried to find out, and in fact these guys RPed that my divers had entered Skargarden waters, which they never did.

2) did the trawler get forcibly boarded? you didn't post the end. i expected ships to ghost the trawler and i put the lippy VA member there (ic) to make sure they boarded the trawler. i didn't know it would be so easy to get them on board.

really, i expected what you posted, not what i got. but oh well, sometimes it drops in your lap...

OOC: By the way, you evacuated 300 MILLION people in the same time that I move 250.000 troops and you complain that I am unrealistic?

now, re: what Wazzu was talking about i don't disagree. two differences.

1) the trawler was witnessed to have nicked the torpedo. this trawler was witnessed to have done NOTHING illegal. all action and divers remained in international waters at all times. this is an ic detail no one in tried to find out, and in fact these guys RPed that my divers had entered Skargarden waters, which they never did.

2) did the trawler get forcibly boarded? you didn't post the end. i expected ships to ghost the trawler and i put the lippy VA member there (ic) to make sure they boarded the trawler. i didn't know it would be so easy to get them on board.

really, i expected what you posted, not what i got. but oh well, sometimes it drops in your lap...

OOC: There are three possibilities here.

1: The evidence was real, in which case nations doing the operations would consider a raid of the trawler valid.

2: The evidence was false, but SATO nations didn't know so they still would consider a raid of the trawler valid.

3: The evidence was false and the SATO nations knew it, in which case they wouldn't do a raid and SeOCC would never have found a spy (I wonder if that is really a spy? I donno, not in SATO/WBO or CACE).

The point is is that EVERYONE holds that SATO truely believed (or still does) that there was a nuclear weapon on that trawler, whether there is/was one or not. Therefore, SATO would consider the raid valid.

******
******

SeOCC, on a seperate point, your trying to clear up IC confusion OCCly. Again, SATO is operating under the idea that the threat is real. Even if OOCly the trawler didn't have a nuclear weapon, a "Q-console", or operatives on board, even if OOCly it really was a plot to route out a nation/spy from CACE, it doesn't matter. Why? Because it hasn't been cleared up ICly.

ICly, SeOCC (and CACE?) is saying it was to route out a spy, and Menelmacar (and SATO) is saying that it is a real threat. But the issue is confused in political gobblygook.

In essence, your not going to clear it up ICly by making OCC statements. Try RPing it instead.

OOC: By the way, you evacuated 300 MILLION people in the same time that I move 250.000 troops and you complain that I am unrealistic?

ooc: yep. the evacuation was over 6 days, which means 50M a day. do you think it's that hard to move 50M in a day if you're only going next door? also, SeOCC has no cars, everything is rail. we have extensive rail connections with Heliotis and Terronos, where the refugees were moved, and ALL rail cars were pressed into servince in addition to aircraft.

that means moving about 2M people an hour. that means moving about 13k people for every km of SeOCC's length, which when you break it down like that isn't so unreasonable. remember, they're going next door, NOT across the world.

Wazzu: i really cannot emphasize this enough, but the WBO/SATO NEVER tried to verify the intelligence. isn't that worth something?

re: clearing it up icly, by god we opened up the forum where we plotted it. anyone can go there and see the discussions. if that's not proof the trawler plot was a god damend plot what else can we give them?

we've gone ooc because nobody believes us ic, and so we're telling people where to go ooc to see the ic information they crave. seriously, check the links, it is alllllll there.

seOCC, it is completely and utterly impossible to move 50 million people in one day. That's like moving everybody in Canada, and then some, to the states; it couldn't be done. Transportation infrastructure would be compleletly unable to handle this kind of stress.

Wazzu: i really cannot emphasize this enough, but the WBO/SATO NEVER tried to verify the intelligence. isn't that worth something?

OOC:

Are you saying that Lady Siri (ICly), in SeOCC view the Hegemon of the capitalist world, would go on camera without validating information? If so, your also saying
1: SeOCC did a piss-poor job of creating false evidence for SATO to believe, and therefore got extremely lucky that the plot worked.
2: SeOCC risked nuclear holocaust by not giving forign governments enough time to verify the supposed threat.

In SATO's view, there was enough evidence to take action. That action included a raid, and a "fireside chat." Without that action, no spy is caught because there is no tipoff.

So decide for yourself. Did SATO have enough evidence to take action, or are you denying your own IC actions by accusing others of taking IC actions falsely?

re: clearing it up icly, by god we opened up the forum where we plotted it. anyone can go there and see the discussions. if that's not proof the trawler plot was a god damend plot what else can we give them?

Opening the forum is an OOC action. Again, maybe it was a plot by SeOCC, or much of CACE. Fine. But showing that OOCly means convincing players OOCly, not nations ICly.

we've gone ooc because nobody believes us ic, and so we're telling people where to go ooc to see the ic information they crave. seriously, check the links, it is alllllll there.

It simply doesn't matter how much is there. Even if tapped proceedings were released to the world, it is quite likely many nations would believe it fake. You can't use OOC actions to convince nations ICly. At least not one run by good RPers.

seOCC, it is completely and utterly impossible to move 50 million people in one day. That's like moving everybody in Canada, and then some, to the states; it couldn't be done. Transportation infrastructure would be compleletly unable to handle this kind of stress.

...

do you know about my transportation infrastructure? let me tell you about it. and before you say anything i'm basing this, nay, stealing this from actual designs done by an architect friend of mine who i discussed arcos with a lot when i lived in the states.

each arco-cluster is linked by rail, and typically has 16-20 rail depots running into and out of the arco. because SeOCC uses no cars or trucks all shipping is done by air, rail or ship. considering that we trade with a lot of nations that are linked by land, we do most shipping by rail. given that the SeOCC economy is incredibly linked to the Heliotis and Terronos economies, as they are both members of the ACEPB, our rail connections with both are massive. we move huge amounts of goods because we are running on corporatized economy across our borders.

why don't i think 50M is so many? well look how i broke down the numbers. 13k an hour, and we only have to move them about 100km, so the train needs to go about 300km to make the trip in a reasonable time and allow for unloading and loading. now we're also using freight trains, and these trains are huge, so how many people do you think we can get onto each one? say 100 people per car, 10 cars, 1000 people. 13 trains leave SeOCC each hours, we're on track.

i don't see how that's so undoable.

seOCC, it is completely and utterly impossible to move 50 million people in one day. That's like moving everybody in Canada, and then some, to the states; it couldn't be done. Transportation infrastructure would be compleletly unable to handle this kind of stress.

...

do you know about my transportation infrastructure? let me tell you about it. and before you say anything i'm basing this, nay, stealing this from actual designs done by an architect friend of mine who i discussed arcos with a lot when i lived in the states.

each arco-cluster is linked by rail, and typically has 16-20 rail depots running into and out of the arco. because SeOCC uses no cars or trucks all shipping is done by air, rail or ship. considering that we trade with a lot of nations that are linked by land, we do most shipping by rail. given that the SeOCC economy is incredibly linked to the Heliotis and Terronos economies, as they are both members of the ACEPB, our rail connections with both are massive. we move huge amounts of goods because we are running on corporatized economy across our borders.

why don't i think 50M is so many? well look how i broke down the numbers. 13k an hour, and we only have to move them about 100km, so the train needs to go about 300km to make the trip in a reasonable time and allow for unloading and loading. now we're also using freight trains, and these trains are huge, so how many people do you think we can get onto each one? say 100 people per car, 10 cars, 1000 people. 13 trains leave SeOCC each hours, we're on track.

i don't see how that's so undoable.

OOC:

It is undoable because of everything you have left out.

What about food, water, shelter, and medicine for those people? What about fuel for the trains? What about all the things that need to be done, like shutting off powerplants, water, sewage? Who evacuates first and how does everyone know to? What about those who don't show up or don't want to leave? What about breakdowns and delays?

And all that is the tip of the iceberg. Moving 50 million people a day is quite unrealistic. I personally would allow it in NS, but if your doing it, you have no place telling other people they are being unrealistic.

Wazzu: hear hear!

Are you saying that Lady Siri (ICly), in SeOCC view the Hegemon of the capitalist world, would go on camera without validating information? If so, your also saying

1) she's the MENELMACARI Hegemon, as in hegemon of Menelmacar. not global.

1: SeOCC did a piss-poor job of creating false evidence for SATO to believe, and therefore got extremely lucky that the plot worked.

well, sort of yes. like we said, the plot was originally to just smoke out the spy and try to embarass them. what we did was not try to hide what the trawler really was because that would have been stupid. had there been any recon done on the trawler they would have seen it was just a science vessel. we had NO intention of covering that up because we were betting on it being obvious.

of course no one seems to care that M went on screen, yes, without verifying the information. what's so hard to accept about that?

2: SeOCC risked nuclear holocaust by not giving forign governments enough time to verify the supposed threat.

what? where did you get that from? i notified Skargarden and then the NS forums the trawlers was there after i sent the message. they had all that time, when the trawler first showed up on radar to when the divers jumped, to check stuff. they didn't. there you go.

In SATO's view, there was enough evidence to take action. That action included a raid, and a "fireside chat." Without that action, no spy is caught because there is no tipoff.

AAAAAAAAAH!

look, SATO didn't verify the intel, okay? that's a fact ic and ooc. if they'd tried they would have contacted us, right? they didn't. so if this is the requirement for 'good intel' shouldn't you be scared? one peice of UNVERIFIED INTELLIGENCE is not A CREDIBLE THREAT. look at all the intel we had before we tried anything. they practically went to war on ONCE PIECE. isn't the difference obvious by now?

actually re: the tip off of the spy, here was my intention. force whoever was trying to board to tell us what they were looking for. when they said terrorists or whatever, something specific, we'd know the info was leaked. simple as that. so again, even with no raid, even with a peaceful boarding, our spy is caught.

So decide for yourself. Did SATO have enough evidence to take action, or are you denying your own IC actions by accusing others of taking IC actions falsely?

huh? what i'm saying is that in my opinion, given the severity of the perceived threat, they should have followed up to make sure it was TRUE before trying anything. they didn't, i don't see what's so confusing here. i don't see what i'm supposed to be denying.

Opening the forum is an OOC action. Again, maybe it was a plot by SeOCC, or much of CACE. Fine. But showing that OOCly means convincing players OOCly, not nations ICly.

you know as well as anyone that in these kinds of places ooc and ic are blended. for instance, chat logs planning stuff are naturally ic, but they may be typed not as characters. be realistic here.

It simply doesn't matter how much is there. Even if tapped proceedings were released to the world, it is quite likely many nations would believe it fake. You can't use OOC actions to convince nations ICly. At least not one run by good RPers.

it's becoming clear we can't do anything to convince the world because they're not going to change their minds. so why do we bother? it sounds like you think we should just pack up and leave.

A quick note: I didn't keep the boat and I issued an apology.

OOC: I should note that Wazzu is pointedly keeping out of this. Wazzu is a capitalist nation, but capitalist by choice, not by ideology. It is seen as a better system...especially as it was corporations that created Wazzu.

But those corporations made Wazzu as a perfect place for them to invest in. They trade internationally, but they don't invest internationally. Wazzu with it's extremely well educated and low paid workforce is simply seen as the most efficient place to make products (and emphesis is placed on manufacturing and services, not on mining or farming). It is a weird system, but one that allows for trade and good relations with non-aggressive centrally planned economies. NOTE: Wazzu is also not aggressive, prefering to keep stability rather then find and destroy enemies.

All the above ought to be considered known ICly, as it is in line with past IC posts of mine.

Secretly (well, more "behind the scenes" rather then "actively secretly"), the Wazzu government is trying to stay out of this conflict. It sees no reason to risk capital over ideological conflicts. It will try to keep Northern Europe stable and secure (which keeps trade flowing, profitable), and keep it's merchant marine (both Earthly and space based) safe.

EDIT: What do I mean by this? I mean that I am not argueing here to take sides in the conflict for the benifit of my nation. I am doing it because I see some things that I OOCly don't like.

OOC: I can't believe this is what you ooc think. Did you guys ever consider not approaching the trawler with guns raised?

Seriously, think about what a REAL nation would do. They would go in as if they knew nothing, follow international law to the t (which you did not do), asked permission without guns raised (since under the barrel of a gun all decisions are coerced), and then searched the boat.

We're going to keep hounding you on why you came in with guns raised and we're not accepting 'well you said there was a nuke so we had the right.' If we got 'intel' that one of your supply boats had a nuke on it, and we tried to board it, what would you do? That's what i thought.

OOC
Frankly, Wazzu has the right of it... they did verify their intelligence: they found out a trawler of approximately the right size/mass/nationality set out on that course on the day their intelligence said it would. Everything they could check out (except its cargo) they did so. The only thing left to do would be to either sink the ship and sift out the remains... or to board and search her.

Frankly, I think it was done in a really stupid way: what kind of commander sends his men in to stand near a guy he thinks has a finger on a nuke? I (and most of the RL special forces) would have gone in quick and hard in a manner that makes Rainbow Warrior look like strolling into a tea party to grab a scone.

A raiding party on board? Then yes, they'd react as you said... but nobody wants a nuke smuggled into their land. And its easier to ask forgiveness than permission... especially from someone you know wont grant it.

Making one of the most warlike major powers still active in the world think that you have a nuke you are smuggling into a de-militerized zone to pre-emptively attack? When you try to convince us that that wasn't brinkmanship (no matter how good a sting it was), please do it IC. People have excuses for characters dumb enough to believe that.

Frankly, I think it was done in a really stupid way: what kind of commander sends his men in to stand near a guy he thinks has a finger on a nuke? I (and most of the RL special forces) would have gone in quick and hard in a manner that makes Rainbow Warrior look like stolling into a tea party to grab a scone.

I think it was just fine, served the purpose of RP well. :evil:

OOC:

Are you saying that Lady Siri (ICly), in SeOCC view the Hegemon of the capitalist world, would go on camera without validating information? If so, your also saying

1) she's the MENELMACARI Hegemon, as in hegemon of Menelmacar. not global.

You don't think she is one of the most if not most followed capitalist leader/s in NS?

1: SeOCC did a piss-poor job of creating false evidence for SATO to believe, and therefore got extremely lucky that the plot worked.

well, sort of yes. like we said, the plot was originally to just smoke out the spy and try to embarass them. what we did was not try to hide what the trawler really was because that would have been stupid. had there been any recon done on the trawler they would have seen it was just a science vessel. we had NO intention of covering that up because we were betting on it being obvious.

So your saying that if you had a trawler full of operatives carrying a nuclear weapon and electronic warfare equipment, you would rather it look like a trawler full of operatives carrying a nuclear weapon and electronic warfare equipment rather then disguise it as something...innocent?

of course no one seems to care that M went on screen, yes, without verifying the information. what's so hard to accept about that?

A speach by the executive of a nation accusing another nation of covert warfare and declaring a cold war status is just as provacative (if not more so) then a covert raid on a civilian trawler. Why? Because it is public.

Executives of nations typically have several people look over their speaches, you don't think those same people would have triplechecked the speech and run it by many others first?

2: SeOCC risked nuclear holocaust by not giving forign governments enough time to verify the supposed threat.

what? where did you get that from? i notified Skargarden and then the NS forums the trawlers was there after i sent the message. they had all that time, when the trawler first showed up on radar to when the divers jumped, to check stuff. they didn't. there you go.

"All that time"??? Intelligence often takes many months to verify. When you think someone is leading an attack against your nation, a few hours or even a few days is very very short. And exactly how were they supposed to verify?

In SATO's view, there was enough evidence to take action. That action included a raid, and a "fireside chat." Without that action, no spy is caught because there is no tipoff.

AAAAAAAAAH!

look, SATO didn't verify the intel, okay? that's a fact ic and ooc. if they'd tried they would have contacted us, right?

And I imagine you think the US verified enemy positions with the Iraq government durring the last two wars with the nation, eh? You do NOT verify intelligence by asking the supposed enemy nation about what you suspect is their covert action. It doesn't work.

they didn't. so if this is the requirement for 'good intel' shouldn't you be scared? one peice of UNVERIFIED INTELLIGENCE is not A CREDIBLE THREAT. look at all the intel we had before we tried anything. they practically went to war on ONCE PIECE. isn't the difference obvious by now?

There were several times durring the Western/Eastern block cold war that nations almost went to war over tiny bits of unverified evidence. I don't know of a single time any of those nations provacated any other to the point of nuclear holocaust by sending out false information in order to catch a spy. It is SeOCC's (or CACE's) fault that a war almost started because it was SeOCC's actions that planted evidence (real or false) that suggested a nuclear war within days.

actually re: the tip off of the spy, here was my intention. force whoever was trying to board to tell us what they were looking for. when they said terrorists or whatever, something specific, we'd know the info was leaked. simple as that. so again, even with no raid, even with a peaceful boarding, our spy is caught.

Except it didn't work this way, because SeOCC sent out such a threat and gave so little time to verify that SATO believed it had to act. You have to live with your mistakes as everyone else does.

So decide for yourself. Did SATO have enough evidence to take action, or are you denying your own IC actions by accusing others of taking IC actions falsely?

huh? what i'm saying is that in my opinion, given the severity of the perceived threat, they should have followed up to make sure it was TRUE before trying anything. they didn't, i don't see what's so confusing here. i don't see what i'm supposed to be denying.

There was simply insufficient time to attempt a verification for such a terrible threat, and insufficient means to do so. Yet a raid was an excelent way to end such a threat if it existed. And as I showed with my quote above, that raid was entirely realistic.

Opening the forum is an OOC action. Again, maybe it was a plot by SeOCC, or much of CACE. Fine. But showing that OOCly means convincing players OOCly, not nations ICly.

you know as well as anyone that in these kinds of places ooc and ic are blended. for instance, chat logs planning stuff are naturally ic, but they may be typed not as characters. be realistic here.

You either need to define for us what of what you say OOCly we can take ICly, or allow us to take anything you say OOCly ICly. I suggest you just forget that and role-play. I certainly will not have Wazzu act on what you say OOCly no matter how much you use other people's bad RPing as an excuse to RP badly (or not at all) yourself.

It simply doesn't matter how much is there. Even if tapped proceedings were released to the world, it is quite likely many nations would believe it fake. You can't use OOC actions to convince nations ICly. At least not one run by good RPers.

it's becoming clear we can't do anything to convince the world because they're not going to change their minds. so why do we bother? it sounds like you think we should just pack up and leave.

How often do capitalist nations believe communist ones over their own? Or vice versa? What about islamic nations believing jewish nations? Or christian? Typically, people are set in their beliefs and blinded to any evidence. They will see other evidence as contrived or false. This is how the real world is.

Making OOC arguements is not a good RP way (and in my view, not even RP) of convincing nations to side with you ICly.

I don't need to know what happened OOCly to choose what Wazzu will do ICly, because OOC actions and OOC talk doesn't matter.

So yes, I am saying that you should pack up your OOC comments and leave...them. Forget the OOC and just start playing. OK?

Sorry, Ruhr, didn't mean to cause offense.

It did, in fact, serve the purpose of the excercise better than mine would have done. Especially in the post-revelation propaganda battle.

Sorry, Ruhr, didn't mean to cause offense.

It did, in fact, serve the purpose of the excercise better than mine would have done. Especially in the post-revelation propaganda battle.

Yeah, TG me what you mean by striking hard. I don't quite understand.

Yeah Wazzu! Woohoo! One man Logic Army coming through! Make room make room! Go Wazzu Go Wazzu Go Wazzu *continues chanting*

I always love it when Wazzu humbles someone :wink: Or even better yet, completely crushes their spirit :twisted: However it works out, I will enjoy the show.

Go Wazzu Go Wazzu Go Wazzu *continues chanting*

What's this about a bluff? SeOOC, that is about the stupidest thing I've ever had the displeasure of hearing about, count yourself lucky that I didn't put nuclear warheads on my ships in-system.

What this says to me is tha SeOOC's government is unfit to represent its people and that it should be removed, either peacefully or forcibly. No government has the right to play with its citizen's lives in this manner.

OOC:

In repsonse to Wazzu (and as one of the ones who planned this) ok, I agree that everyone should try to get back IC as much as possible.

If I can remind everyone though (and I admit I'm propbably seeing this
through CACE tinted specs) that the following situation exists ICly:

- A number of SATO nations (maybe all of them, but I don't speak for SATO) have accepted that the trawler was a ruse and there was no nuke.

- CACE has presented evidence that SATO planned to attack them, and attempt to enlist the aid of The Reich, and we contend that the wargames were merely a pretext for this attack.

- SATO denies this, and claims that any discussion of war was made in the context of responding to a strike by CACE. (Some SATO memebers may even dispute the validity of the evidence at all, and whether such a discussion took place, not sure but that's for them).

- A member of The Reich, Vegana, has stated publicly that Reich nations were contacted by SATO members with a view to attacking CACE.

- CACE maintains that the plan of asault predates the trawler incident and was the purpose of the wargames all along.

There's probably more, but that should be enough to be getting on with...until someone adds smething else, r pints out smething I've forgotten.

Oh, and and other thing: when Seocc was threatened by nukes and asked a SATO member (Der Angst) to assist in the investigation they were told to "F#@k OFF".

So, it would seem that playing with nukes, which no one did anyway, only causes this much fuss when it happens near SATO members.

Actually, that last statement could be taken ICly as being the Celdonian Foreign Minister, as much as it vould be me OOC.

If I can remind everyone though (and I admit I'm propbably seeing this
through CACE tinted specs) that the following situation exists ICly:

- A number of SATO nations (maybe all of them, but I don't speak for SATO) have accepted that the trawler was a ruse and there was no nuke.

It doesn't matter, that you were playing poker on the nuclear level is enough to make most reasonable people seriously pissed off.


- CACE has presented evidence that SATO planned to attack them, and attempt to enlist the aid of The Reich, and we contend that the wargames were merely a pretext for this attack.

By admitting that the nuke ploy was a falsehood, do you expect us to take you as anything other than master liars?


- SATO denies this, and claims that any discussion of war was made in the context of responding to a strike by CACE. (Some SATO memebers may even dispute the validity of the evidence at all, and whether such a discussion took place, not sure but that's for them).

Whatever faults SATO members may have, I don't think they are liars.


- A member of The Reich, Vegana, has stated publicly that Reich nations were contacted by SATO members with a view to attacking CACE.

Now we all know that the Reich is an example of level thinking and strong moral fiber. [/sarcasm]


- CACE maintains that the plan of asault predates the trawler incident and was the purpose of the wargames all along.

See response two.

#tag#

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

OOC:

In repsonse to Wazzu (and as one of the ones who planned this) ok, I agree that everyone should try to get back IC as much as possible.

If I can remind everyone though (and I admit I'm propbably seeing this
through CACE tinted specs) that the following situation exists ICly:

- A number of SATO nations (maybe all of them, but I don't speak for SATO) have accepted that the trawler was a ruse and there was no nuke.

- CACE has presented evidence that SATO planned to attack them, and attempt to enlist the aid of The Reich, and we contend that the wargames were merely a pretext for this attack.

- SATO denies this, and claims that any discussion of war was made in the context of responding to a strike by CACE. (Some SATO memebers may even dispute the validity of the evidence at all, and whether such a discussion took place, not sure but that's for them).

- A member of The Reich, Vegana, has stated publicly that Reich nations were contacted by SATO members with a view to attacking CACE.

- CACE maintains that the plan of asault predates the trawler incident and was the purpose of the wargames all along.

There's probably more, but that should be enough to be getting on with...until someone adds smething else, r pints out smething I've forgotten.

OOC: In essence, it looks like CACE, SATO/WBO, and the Reich are all,

1: Putting out propaganda (believed or false) to get more support internationally for their ideology.
2: Confirming their ideology and rightousness(sp?) in the eyese of their own citizens.
3: Agreeing that on some level, a cold war exists.

ICly, the facts are so mingled and mangled as to be indistinguishable.

OOCly, only those with membership in one of these organizations (and perhaps only those with both memberships in one, and spies in one or two of the others) know for sure what is going on.

Which all makes for an absolutely wonderful RPing environment!

Will there be covert ops? Proxy wars? Tense and hostile places on the globe? Or will it all lead up to another big war, a world war based on IC nations (rather then this WWIX made up for fun but not affecting the rest of NS)?

All that said, I hope this will be the last of my OOC posts, because now I feel like I am distracting everyone from the role-play.

So, have fun everyone! Maybe Wazzu will eventually get involved in one way or another.

And thank you Sketch, that made my ego feel better. :)

EDIT: And Celdonia. I didn't see the nuclear threat to SeOCC. If there was something wrong with it, I might well have made a fuss about it too. :D

- CACE has presented evidence that SATO planned to attack them, and attempt to enlist the aid of The Reich, and we contend that the wargames were merely a pretext for this attack.

By admitting that the nuke ploy was a falsehood, do you expect us to take you as anything other than master liars?


The stakes may have been high, but if your intelligence agency never deals in disinformation then I suggest you create a new intelligence agency. One that knows what it's doing. Just some friendly advice.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

I honestly think the nuclear device ploy was the stupidest IC move you guys could have made. And quite frankly, we weren't planning for anything more than wargames.

- CACE has presented evidence that SATO planned to attack them, and attempt to enlist the aid of The Reich, and we contend that the wargames were merely a pretext for this attack.

By admitting that the nuke ploy was a falsehood, do you expect us to take you as anything other than master liars?


The stakes may have been high, but if your intelligence agency never deals in disinformation then I suggest you create a new intelligence agency. One that knows what it's doing. Just some friendly advice.

Celdonian Foreign Minister.

Disinformation is one thing, using citizen's lives as poker chips is another. Also, we don't make a habit of lying to other nations when it doesn't suit our interests, it's too "Hollywood" to do so.

...

do you know about my transportation infrastructure? let me tell you about it. and before you say anything i'm basing this, nay, stealing this from actual designs done by an architect friend of mine who i discussed arcos with a lot when i lived in the states.

each arco-cluster is linked by rail, and typically has 16-20 rail depots running into and out of the arco. because SeOCC uses no cars or trucks all shipping is done by air, rail or ship. considering that we trade with a lot of nations that are linked by land, we do most shipping by rail. given that the SeOCC economy is incredibly linked to the Heliotis and Terronos economies, as they are both members of the ACEPB, our rail connections with both are massive. we move huge amounts of goods because we are running on corporatized economy across our borders.

why don't i think 50M is so many? well look how i broke down the numbers. 13k an hour, and we only have to move them about 100km, so the train needs to go about 300km to make the trip in a reasonable time and allow for unloading and loading. now we're also using freight trains, and these trains are huge, so how many people do you think we can get onto each one? say 100 people per car, 10 cars, 1000 people. 13 trains leave SeOCC each hours, we're on track.

i don't see how that's so undoable.

I actually don't really need to know anything about your society to make those conclusions; you may have a very extensive rail network, but that doesn't mean you can use it for transportation of millions of people. I would assume that your service is fairly efficient; there is neither large surplusses of track, cars or engines. It is fair to assume that these rails are thus being used to or nearly to capacity already. Thus if you 'higjack' your rail system for this kind of purpose, you are effectively halting the transportation of other goods; including medecine, food, and possibly water and energy.

I honestly think the nuclear device ploy was the stupidest IC move you guys could have made. And quite frankly, we weren't planning for anything more than wargames.

[ooc:

'scuse me, weren't you part of the discussions for this? (http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/WBO%20pic.jpg)

Sounds like a plan for full scale invasion should the CACE fail to capitulate to SATO's demands.]

Which we would't, because aforementioned SeOCC violations of CACE policy aren't.

I honestly think the nuclear device ploy was the stupidest IC move you guys could have made. And quite frankly, we weren't planning for anything more than wargames.

[ooc:

'scuse me, weren't you part of the discussions for this? (http://cace.thegrimproject.net/scratch/WBO%20pic.jpg)

Sounds like a plan for full scale invasion should the CACE fail to capitulate to SATO's demands.]

Umm, I was pretty confident that all alliances do this sort of crap and plan for the worst, which is essentially what we were doing...but adding our hope for Seocc to be kicked from CACE.

And quite frankly, I did not seriously partake in the RP, only saught help for posts.

The Evil Empire*
Prime Minister Lousewies van der Laan’s speech to Parliament:

We're approaching the end of a bloody century plagued by a terrible political invention -- anticapitalist totalitarianism. Optimism comes less easily today, not because democracy is less vigorous, but because democracy's enemies have refined their instruments of repression. Yet optimism is in order because day by day democracy is proving itself to be a not at all fragile flower. From SeOCC to Free Socialism, the regimes planted by anticapitalist totalitarianism have had more than thirty years to establish their legitimacy, toddling in the remains of the once proud Federal Republic. Regimes planted by bayonets and revolutions do not take root. The strength of the rebel movement in northern Jigoku demonstrates the truth told in an underground joke in the Coalition of Anticapitalist Economies.

Historians looking back at our time will note the consistent restraint and peaceful intentions of the South Atlantic Treaty Organisation. They will note that it was the free nations who refused to use the threat of their nuclear and military superiority in the past for territorial or imperial gain. Had that nuclear and military power been in the hands of the Communist world, the map of Sisgardia or Lodoss or Nederland--indeed, the world--would look very different today. And certainly they will note it was not the free nations that invaded 'anti-ACA' nations or suppressed Jigokan independence

If history teaches anything, it teaches self-delusion in the face of unpleasant facts is folly. We see around us today the marks of our terrible dilemma--predictions of doomsday, antinuclear demonstrations, an arms race in which the SATO must, for its own protection, be an unwilling participant. At the same time we see totalitarian forces in the world who seek subversion and conflict around the globe to further their barbarous assault on the human spirit. What, then, is our course? Must civilization perish in a hail of fiery atoms? Must freedom wither in a quiet, deadening accommodation with totalitarian evil?

My predecessor Prime Minister Vogels refused to accept the inevitability of war or even that it was imminent. He said, "I do not believe that the CACE desires war. What they desire is the fruits of war and the indefinite expansion of their power and doctrines. But what we have to consider here today while time remains is the permanent prevention of war and the establishment of conditions of freedom and democracy as rapidly as possible in all countries."

Well, this is precisely our mission today: to preserve freedom as well as peace. It may not be easy to see; but I believe we live now at a turning point.

In an ironic sense Karl Marx was right. We are witnessing today a great revolutionary crisis, a crisis where the demands of the economic order are conflicting directly with those of the political order. But the crisis is happening not in the free, non-Marxist nations but in the home of Anticapitalism, the CACE. It is the CACE that runs against the tide of history by denying human economic freedom and human dignity to its citizens. Many of their nations are fundamentally in deep economic difficulty.

The dimensions of this failure are astounding. Overcentralized, with little or no incentives, the system pours its best resources into the making of instruments of destruction. The system evacuates millions of people based on political motives. The system rations food and switches production to weaponry based on the paranoid predictions of one leader. What we see here is a political structure that no longer corresponds to its economic base, a society where productive forced are hampered by political ones.

The inevitable decay of the Anticapitalist experiment should come as no surprise to us. Wherever the comparisons have been made between free and closed societies (OOC: -- West Germany and East Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia, Malaysia and Vietnam --) it is the free countries that are prosperous and responsive to the needs of their people.

The hard evidence of totalitarian anticapitalist rule has caused in mankind an uprising of the intellect and will. Whether it is the growth of the new schools of economics in Der Angst or Knootoss or the appearance of the so-called new philosophers in Endless Islands, there is one unifying thread running through the intellectual work of these groups -- rejection of the arbitrary power of the state, the refusal to subordinate the rights of the individual to the superstate, the realization that collectivism stifles all the best human impulses....

The CACE ‘corporate’ leadership repeatedly has stressed that the competition of ideas and systems must continue and that this is entirely consistent with relaxation of tensions and peace.

Well, we ask only that these systems begin by living up to their own constitutions, abiding by their own laws, and complying with the international obligations they have undertaken. We ask only for a process, a direction, a basic code of decency, not for an instant transformation. Since the fall of the Federal Republic SeOCC has given covert political training and assistance to Anticapitalists in many countries. Of course, it also has promoted the use of violence and subversion by these same forces. Open support of terrorism and suppression of citizens rights in Empire and Terronos and other ‘puppet states’ must end. We cannot ignore the fact that even without our encouragement there has been and will continue to be repeated explosion against repression and dictatorships. The SeOCC empire itself is not immune to this reality. Any system is inherently unstable that has no peaceful means to legitimise its leaders. In such cases, the very repressiveness of the state ultimately drives people to resist it, if necessary, by force.

While we must be cautious about forcing the pace of change, we must not hesitate to declare our ultimate objectives and to take concrete actions to move toward them. We must be staunch in our conviction that freedom is not the sole prerogative of a lucky few but the inalienable and universal right of all human beings. So states the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The objective I propose is quite simple to state: to foster the infrastructure of democracy, the system of a free press, unions, political parties, universities, which allows a people to choose their own way to develop their own culture, to reconcile their own differences through peaceful means.

This is not cultural imperialism; it is providing the means for genuine self-determination and protection for diversity. Democracy already flourishes in countries with very different cultures and historical experiences. It would be cultural condescension, or worse, to say that any people prefer ‘Economic Planning Board’ dictatorship to democracy. Who would voluntarily choose not to have the right to vote, decide to purchase government propaganda handouts instead of independent newspapers, prefer government to worker-controlled unions, opt for land to be owned by the state instead of those who till it, want government repression of religious liberty, a single political party instead of a free choice, a rigid cultural orthodoxy instead of democratic tolerance and diversity.

We in Knootoss now intend to take additional steps, as many of our allies have already done, toward realizing this same goal. The chairmen and other leaders of the SLP, KGP, RCPK and KEP party organizations are initiating a study with the Multipartisan Knootian Political Foundation to determine how the Dutch Democratic Republic can best contribute as a nation to the global campaign for democracy and liberty now gathering force. They will have the cooperation of parliamentary leaders of all parties, along with representatives of business, labour, and other major institutions in our society. I look forward to receiving their recommendations and to working with these institutions and the Parliament in the common task of strengthening democracy and economic freedom throughout the world.

It is time that we committed ourselves as a nation -- in both the public and private sectors -- to assisting democratic development....

What I am describing now is a plan and a hope for the long term -- the march of freedom and democracy which will leave Anticapitalism on the ash heap of history as it has left other tyrannies which stifle the freedom and muzzle the self-expression of the people. And that's why we must continue our efforts to strengthen SATO.

Our military strength is a prerequisite to peace, but let it be clear we maintain this strength in the hope it will never be used, for the ultimate determinant in the struggle that's now going on in the world will not be bombs and rockets but a test of wills and ideas, a trial of spiritual resolve, the values we hold, the beliefs we cherish, the ideals to which we are dedicated. The Knootian people know that, given strong leadership, time, and a little bit of hope, the forces of good ultimately rally and triumph over evil.

I've often wondered about the shyness of some of us in the ‘west’ about standing for these ideals that have done so much to ease the plight of man and the hardships of our imperfect world. This reluctance to use those vast resources at our command reminds me of the elderly lady whose home was bombed in the bombing of the Hague during the shadow war.. As the rescuers moved about, they found a bottle of brandy she'd stored behind the staircase, which was all that was left standing. And since she was barely conscious, one of the workers pulled the cork to give her a taste of it. She came around immediately and said, "Here now -- there now, put it back. That's for emergencies."

Well, the emergency is upon us. Let us be shy no longer. Let us go to our strength. Let us offer hope. Let us tell the world that a new age is not only possible but probable.

During the dark days of the Shadow War, when this island was incandescent with courage, Prime Minister Vogels exclaimed about Knootoss's adversaries, "What kind of people do they think we are?" Well, Knootoss's adversaries found out what extraordinary people the Knootians are. But all the democracies paid a terrible price for allowing the dictators to underestimate us. We dare not make that mistake again. So, let us ask ourselves, "What kind of people do we think we are?" And let us answer, "Free people, worthy of freedom and determined not only to remain so but to help others gain their freedom as well."

Vogels died before he could lead his people to great victory in war. But he has lived his life, knowing that the liberty of his people was more important than the fate of any single leader. He sacrificed his life in order to save parliament. History recalls his greatness in ways no dictator will ever know. And he left us a message of hope for the future, as timely now as when he first uttered it, as young MP in this very house nearly twenty-seven years ago, when he said, "When we look back on all the perils through which we have passed and at the mighty foes that we have laid low and all the dark and deadly designs that we have frustrated, why should we fear for our future? We have," he said, "come safely through the worst."

Well, the task I've set forth will long outlive our own generation. But together, we too have come through the worst. Let us now begin a major effort to secure the best -- a crusade for freedom that will engage the faith and fortitude of the next generation. For the sake of peace and justice, let us move toward a world in which all people are at last free to determine their own destiny.

*Adapted from President Reagan's Speech to the House of Commons, June 8, 1982.

[OOC - Sorry, I just can't resist...

"Mr. Khalid, tear down this wall!" ]

The speech of the Knootossian Prime Minister in broadcast multiple times by all news channels on Pyrtania with the following brief comment by Savik, the Prime Minister of Pyrtania.

"True words spoken by an admirable man and words that echo throughout the international community as the current crisis unfolds. Until recently, we in Pyrtania were more concerned by the threat of racism and human supremacy that by the long red shadow of Bolshevism. It is not a threat we face internally. Oh, certainly there is the Pyrtanian Socialist Party, the Labor Party of Pyrtania, and a few smaller parties on the far left in out nation but these are political forces working within and not against our basic political framework of a representative parliament. It was admittedly gratitude towards the Lady Sirithil for our own liberation at the hands of the Menelmacari Sixth Fleet as well as elven solidarity which initially prompted our interest in this matter. However, the more we study it, the more it becomes apparent that the philosophy of CACE is fundamentally opposed to the freedom and prosperity of the international community. It is with that consideration in mind that we echo the Knootossian Primce Minister in hoping that this tyrannical blight on the world be relegated to the ash bin of history so soon as possible, preferably peacably but we stand ready to defend the free world to the best of our ability and we stand by SATO, although not a member, and by the great Lady Sirithil without hesitation or doubt."

Meanwhile, the Pyrtanian space fleet is being refitted with the general end of bringing it up to par with Pyrtania's increased size and economic strength but also to create more ships with interstellar capabilities, brining the total to three.

[ooc:

-Looks at Pyrtania's Civil and Political freedoms

-laughs uproariously

You're in no position to lecture the CACE on freedom.]

"Mr. Khalid, tear down this wall!" ]

urgh, sigh. Khalid is not in charge of anything. you'd be looking for Minister Ellman-Fogg.

Wombat News Report (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91987)

((The government democratized ic recently and the obnoxious less dicatatorship issue is taking forever to come up so I can have less dictatorship. *Grumble grumble* So icly we're "still in the process of restructuring. But even if we were an unapologetically brutal dictatorship and planned of staying that way, we'd still prate about freedom and democracy when preaching against out enemies icly cause, well, hypocrisy is a part of international dialogue, in real life and on NS *Goes back ic*))

From SeOCC to Free Socialism, [...] in the remains of the once proud Federal Republic.

Bah, you need some serious history and geography lessons, or to refrain from making speeches based on asumptions. The USFS has never been a part of the Federal Republic, and is indeed not even located on the contintent of Aperin but rather on an island group in it's vicinity.

ooc:

...hypocrisy is a part of international dialogue, in real life and on NS *Goes back ic*))

(looks at certain recent posts)

Well said, brother.

[OOC - Sorry, I just can't resist...

"Mr. Khalid, tear down this wall!" ]
OOC: LOL

KNN:
Today 3000 Knootians showed up at a government organised rally to "tear down the wall" and protest against dictatorship. Demonstrators enjoyed a free 'lunch for peace' in the Vondelpark. They also discussed topics such as "what can we do to promote freedom in our daily lives."

The speech of the Knootossian Prime Minister in broadcast multiple times by all news channels on Pyrtania with the following brief comment by Savik, the Prime Minister of Pyrtania.

"True words spoken by an admirable man and words that echo throughout the international community as the current crisis unfolds. Until recently, we in Pyrtania were more concerned by the threat of racism and human supremacy that by the long red shadow of Bolshevism. It is not a threat we face internally. Oh, certainly there is the Pyrtanian Socialist Party, the Labor Party of Pyrtania, and a few smaller parties on the far left in out nation but these are political forces working within and not against our basic political framework of a representative parliament. It was admittedly gratitude towards the Lady Sirithil for our own liberation at the hands of the Menelmacari Sixth Fleet as well as elven solidarity which initially prompted our interest in this matter. However, the more we study it, the more it becomes apparent that the philosophy of CACE is fundamentally opposed to the freedom and prosperity of the international community. It is with that consideration in mind that we echo the Knootossian Primce Minister in hoping that this tyrannical blight on the world be relegated to the ash bin of history so soon as possible, preferably peacably but we stand ready to defend the free world to the best of our ability and we stand by SATO, although not a member, and by the great Lady Sirithil without hesitation or doubt."

Meanwhile, the Pyrtanian space fleet is being refitted with the general end of bringing it up to par with Pyrtania's increased size and economic strength but also to create more ships with interstellar capabilities, brining the total to three.

OOC: Elvish nation? I just happen to have an Elvish state-secretary of Foreign Affairs. :P

IC:
You seem like the leaders of a right thinking nation and we share your ideals and gratitude to the High Elentari Sirithil. Would you agree to improve relations between the Dutch Democratic Republic and Pyrtania?

We offer you an exchange of embassies, reduced tarrifs and an educational exchange programme. In the future this may grow even more. May our nations prosper together in peace!

~Galadriël Táralóm nos Cirdan
State-secretary of Foreign Affairs

From SeOCC to Free Socialism, [...] in the remains of the once proud Federal Republic.

Bah, you need some serious history and geography lessons, or to refrain from making speeches based on asumptions. The USFS has never been a part of the Federal Republic, and is indeed not even located on the contintent of Aperin but rather on an island group in it's vicinity.

OOC: You're on the map. :P But I stand corrected.
semi-IC. You are part of the Evil Empire nevertheless.

Today 3000 Knootians showed up at a government organised rally to "tear down the wall" and protest against dictatorship. Demonstrators enjoyed a free 'lunch for peace' in the Vondelpark. They also discussed topics such as "what can we do to promote freedom in our daily lives."

Seocc is ranked 2nd in the region and 29,184th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Menelmacar is ranked 7th in the region and 38,654th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Lavenrunz is ranked 5th in the region and 30,054th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Ruhr is ranked 11th in the region and 56,426th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Der Angst is ranked 13th in the region and 52,190th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

It seems like the people of Knootoss should be concerned more with their allies stance of freedom than those of peaceful governments on the other sdie of the world.

MoI Frontdesk

You can use selective statistics to prove anything:

Knootoss is ranked 2nd in the region and 6,607th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

while...

Seocc is ranked 2nd in the region and 29,184th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations. OPRESSOR OF DA PEOPLE!

First Outside is ranked 81st in the region and 32,553rd in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Verkat is ranked 122nd in the region and 41,727th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Russian Navy is ranked 5th in the region and 56,537th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Progressive Communism is ranked 73rd in the region and 51,706th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Germanicapan is ranked 75th in the region and 40,042nd in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Many thanks to Celdonia's exellent statistical database. Conclusion: moot point.

It seems like the people of SeOCC should be concerned more with their allies stance of freedom than those of peaceful governments on the other side of the world.

That said I know I am one of the more politically democratic nations in SATO. However I am most certainly also referring to economic freedom in this speech. Something completely lacking in your opressive planned economies.

~Some Knootoss Public Information Bureau

Political Freedoms within the CACE
Very Good 9
Good 8
Excellent 7
Below Average 6
World Benchmark 3
Few 3
Superb 2
Average 2
Excessive 1
Some 1


Civil Rights within the CACE
Civil Rights
Superb 23
World Benchmark 6
Excellent 6
Very Good 3
Excessive 2
Frightening 1
Good 1


Now, you might call it oppression if you wish; however, it would be quite interesting to see how the SATO would do in comparance. However, I was unable to locate a SATO memberlist upon browsing your forums, I only found a WBO list.


(statistics taken from http://www.redfrenzy.com/cace_db.php)

You can use selective statistics to prove anything:

Did we say that the people of Knootoss should be more concerned with their government? No, we specifically referred to your allies, so when you explain why you're concerned with us rather than your buddies, feel free to stuff it.

That said I know I am one of the more politically democratic nations in SATO. However I am most certainly also referring to economic freedom in this speech. Something completely lacking in your opressive planned economies.

You clearly have never, ever, ever seen SeOCC's economy. SeOCC has a large consumer market and produces as many brands and varieties as any capitalist nation. If by 'economic freedom' you mean the freedom to steal property, own the means of production, exploit workers and create a plutocracy, we happily oppress. Of course it might occur that to prevent people from exploiting and oppressing others economically will actually increase the net 'freedom' in a society, since only about 1% of any given population are in the position to exercise the 'freedoms' we lack.

What we attempted to prove was that Knootoss is not concerned with freedom, only with attempting to embarass SeOCC, which you did not do because we are quite proud of our nation. What we wanted to prove is that your allies are as guilty as we are, yet you seem unconcerned with their people. Why remains a mystery.

Nathan Palouse
Minister of Information
SeOCC

I suppose my ranking was too embarrassing to post.


Xikuang is ranked 4th in the region and 757th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

I think that you probably 'pwn' the entire SATO/WBO collective! Might be wrong, though.

I suppose my ranking was too embarrassing to post.


Xikuang is ranked 4th in the region and 757th in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.

Bah, you are an evil oppresor too. 756th. Boo-yah!

And Sacco and Vanzetti is 758th. And Free Outer Eugenia puts us all to shame at 500th. X, what are you doing in the company of the anarchist wing of CACE?

The point still stands. Everyone can make such a list.

For example:
http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/purity/images/chart.gif

The point still stands. Everyone can make such a list.

For example:
http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/purity/images/chart.gif

[Well, if you wanted to, you could convert all the statistics into percentile measures, and use those figures to derive an average - thus providing data on which alliance, SATO or CACE, is more politically free.

I have no doubts of the results.

Just for the record:

Anhierarch is ranked 8th in the region and 1,923rd in the world for Most Politically Free Nations.]

The point still stands. Everyone can make such a list.

For example:
http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/purity/images/chart.gif

Bwahahahahahahhahaahha!!!!!!!

That is genius, sorry...it is!

So to compare ACTUAL game statistics on Civil Rights and Political Freedom between the CACE and the SATO is like comparing crime and masturbation to incriminate the Democrats? Weak.

Roania

81,771 in the Most Politically Free nations UN poll.

Three main reasons I'm not a member of SATO:

1. I'm on an island in the Pacific.

2. I'm one of the more evil nations on the 'good' side. As I tell everyone, it's not about good and evil, but rather law and chaos.

3. An actual quote from Edward Black, Roania's former ruler "Humans have rights? When did this happen?"

And yet, I have close alliances with every member of SATO, and the WBO.

Actually, I've been trying to get into the WBO.

The Kingdom of Pyrtania gladly accepts the offer of Knootoss for the establishment of relations.
Lady Amena

((We should make a new thread for this. Would you like to make it or shall I?))

The Kingdom of Pyrtania gladly accepts the offer of Knootoss for the establishment of relations.
Lady Amena

((We should make a new thread for this. Would you like to make it or shall I?))

OOC: you can make a new thread if you want to and I'll send an ambassador. We can also just consider them 'established' of course. TG me the link please if you set up a new thread and my Ambassador will arrive by plane...

ALL OF YOU PEOPlE ARE INSANE!

ALL OF YOU PEOPlE ARE INSANE!

*raises eyebrow*