NationStates Jolt Archive

Just a quick description since lately there seems to be some confusion. I'll find a way to put this into my factbook too, soon.

Okay, so here's how it works: All commerce and industry is run by the government and it's ministries. All profit made, resources gained, things built, etc. is government property. The government uses the money and resources to do the following things in the following order every month:
-Provide essentials of life for all of it's citizens*
-Provide necessary resources and funds to itself and it's ministries
-Put 10% of the remaining month's income into a secure account for economic insurance
-Pay each of it's working and legally retired citizens an equal amount of the remaining income**

Note: The government requires all of it's citizens to be employed (it always has jobs open) until age 100 (life expectancy of Xanthalians is 130 years; there are special provisions for the physically and mentally handicapped as well as members of shorter-lived species). If they refuse to work, their citizenship is revoked and they are told to leave the country. If they don't leave, they are forcibly exiled to the planet of Mirfak III.

And that's it! There's a lot more to it, of course, but that's the general idea. Not a pure Communist society by any means, but it's as close as I could come without doing something that would piss off my fantasy population and result in their overthrowing my beloved government. Questions? Comments? I'm happy to hear and respond to any you may have!

* - Xanthalian law defines essentials of life very broadly, including food, water, a home, utility service, appliances, furniture, transportation, and quite a few other things. These are, of course, provided in a spartan manner, but by no means a shoddy one. Every Xanthalian citizen has a decent standard of living.
** - This amount varies from month to month, but is usually around $1,000 USD.

Really? Nothing? I'm impressed, I must have done a better job explaining than I thought!

keep up the good work :wink:

It sounds intresting! We could do that on earth. The only problem is exiling people to other planets or siberia and forcing people to work. No one should be forced to work and they shouldn't be exiled if they don't. That part reminds me of the old Soviet system which was very harsh.

Soviet Trasa: Thanks!

Allemonde: Yeah, but if you don't require them to work in order to get paid then nobody works and your economy collapses. The exile part is optional to the system, but we do it to keep slums from cropping up and to keep the crime rate down. It should be noted that those exiled for not working may return to society at any time as long as they work.

"Such an enlightened economy... unfortunately due to our "Frightening" economy we cannot switch to this brilliant system without a serious economic correction... but we still support your economic choices in spirit... although we know you are very secure, please tell us if you need any economic assistance in the future."

Third Undersecretary for Economic Affairs
Ministry of Trade and Peace

Seal of Esamopia

Esamopia: Thank you! And congratulations on your own magnificent economy!

A cheerful bump for viewing and commentary.

Soviet Trasa: Thanks!

Allemonde: Yeah, but if you don't require them to work in order to get paid then nobody works and your economy collapses. The exile part is optional to the system, but we do it to keep slums from cropping up and to keep the crime rate down. It should be noted that those exiled for not working may return to society at any time as long as they work.

I'm more in favor with a kind of European/Swedish liberal-socialist democracy. It could work if you could convince anought people to try it. Communism is a nasty word cause it brings up too many images of Stalin, Mao, Khmer Rouhge and Pol Pot.

Allemonde: But it doesn't work. That's the problem. Communism is impossible unless everyone involved is a selfless zombie. Any selfishness on the part of the citizens at all ruins it for everyone, and Humans are naturally selfish. I mean, come on... Would you honestly work your butt off if you knew that you'd get paid the same amount if you did nothing at all? Would everyone else?

I think that's called socialism, Xanthal.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mliêstôlkakûmek(Love all as you love yourself)
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and big butts!
Letilan moths! Yay!
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:TEA1WL6tIGQC:w1.150.telia.com/~u15008589

Shutters. Theres Communists, socalists, mixed capitalists, Abulute Monarchists and feudal monarchists, Merchentalists and others, What ever happened to a good old Capitalism with no govermental controls or Tariffs.

Just a quick description since lately there seems to be some confusion. I'll find a way to put this into my factbook too, soon.

Okay, so here's how it works: All commerce and industry is run by the government and it's ministries. All profit made, resources gained, things built, etc. is government property. The government uses the money and resources to do the following things in the following order every month:
-Provide essentials of life for all of it's citizens*
-Provide necessary resources and funds to itself and it's ministries
-Put 10% of the remaining month's income into a secure account for economic insurance
-Pay each of it's working and legally retired citizens an equal amount of the remaining income**

Note: The government requires all of it's citizens to be employed (it always has jobs open) until age 100 (life expectancy of Xanthalians is 130 years; there are special provisions for the physically and mentally handicapped as well as members of shorter-lived species). If they refuse to work, their citizenship is revoked and they are told to leave the country. If they don't leave, they are forcibly exiled to the planet of Mirfak III.

And that's it! There's a lot more to it, of course, but that's the general idea. Not a pure Communist society by any means, but it's as close as I could come without doing something that would piss off my fantasy population and result in their overthrowing my beloved government. Questions? Comments? I'm happy to hear and respond to any you may have!

* - Xanthalian law defines essentials of life very broadly, including food, water, a home, utility service, appliances, furniture, transportation, and quite a few other things. These are, of course, provided in a spartan manner, but by no means a shoddy one. Every Xanthalian citizen has a decent standard of living.
** - This amount varies from month to month, but is usually around $1,000 USD.

Yeah, I'm pretty much positive you just outlined the basics of socialism, which is indeed a brilliant system. The equality of communism without the terrible economic weaknesses.

No government control over capitalism may end up ruining the economy.

Capitalism is the idea that competition is better for business; and yet if a single company has a stranglehold on a paticular industry (a little something called a monopoly) then the purpose is defeated.

-- Andrew Kreins
Populace Bureau

well it working pretty well in Zerni, heck you don't even need government premition to start a business, no paperwork, no permits.

I think that's called socialism, Xanthal.

uh, not quite. socialism usually requires popular, not government, control of industry, and i've never met a socialist who would revoke citizenship for not working.

so here are the questions i have:

how is production decided? does the government use ex ante planning or doe a market dictate production?

how are workers remunerated? who decides how much a doctor or a janitor gets paid? is there a wage cap or a wage differential cap?

where does capital investment come from? you didn't detail how you plan for the division between consumer and capital goods. does the government simply take a segment of total production towards these ends or do individual firms choose to expand?

how is the government elected? yes, if the government is in charge of the economy this is an important economic question.

how are industries organized? are they centrally run by a government committee or do they have autonomy and merely report to the central committee.

Letila: More or less, but there are notable differences in policy.

Zerni: Plenty of nations in NS are capitalist. Hell, some nations are just huge corporations.

Cyberutopia: See the answer I gave Letila.

Oglethorpia: Yeah, capitalism collapses without some form of government control.

Zerni (2): Yikes. What does your government do?

Seocc: Excellent questions. I'll answer each in turn.
How is production decided?: The government plans production to match what will be required (in the case of essentials) and demanded (in the case of luxury products) by the population and the Xanthalian ministries. The plan is very flexible however, and can be easily modified as time passes and things change. Extra production is implemented in certain areas for the purposes of intrnational trade.
How are workers remunerated?: As stated in the description provided in the first post, all workers and legally retired citizens are paid an equal amount every month, determined by the nation's income (usually about $1,000 per person).
Where does capital investment come from?: The Ministry of Development is in charge of most building projects, research and management comes from other specialized ministries. Development of new products is managed largely by the Ministry of Social Affairs in conjunction with the Ministry of Economics. The budget for capital investment goes to the respective ministries.
How is the government elected?: The dictator appoints people to fill most government positions, but if the dictator's approval rating goes below 50% he/she must step down and the general populace elects a new set of leaders.
How are industries organized?: Industry is managed mostly by individual ministries that need to build things. Naturally, the Ministry of Development has the largest industrial sector.

OOC

Bah! Socialism, communism, democracy. Its all the same and must be exterminated.

..he says, ignoring the fact that the Conglomerate is so large it effectively runs the state and the people alike and in fact bears more resemblences to totalitarian socialism than free market capitalism...

How is production decided?: The government plans production to match what will be required (in the case of essentials) and demanded (in the case of luxury products) by the population and the Xanthalian ministries. The plan is very flexible however, and can be easily modified as time passes and things change. Extra production is implemented in certain areas for the purposes of intrnational trade.

so is this ex ante or ex post planning? does consumption change the plan; do you just have the People's Shoe or can people buy what they like and thus influence what the committee chooses to produce?

i'd remove the bit about the plan being flexible since actual economic data has shown that planned economies are NOT flexible. because you're planning capital expenditures you usually can't plan for periods of less than three years or your economy will collapse. why collapse? because when you put all that production into capital goods and then turn around and not use them you just wasted HUGE amounts of labor, raw materials and the opportunith cost of using your machinery.

market economies appear flexible because people are all doing differant things, thus when one firm fails another can step in. each firm's production is, of course, planned, and so firms fail if their plans are crap. etc etc.


How are workers remunerated?: As stated in the description provided in the first post, all workers and legally retired citizens are paid an equal amount every month, determined by the nation's income (usually about $1,000 per person).

so all are paid the exact same thing regardless of career, yes?

Where does capital investment come from?: The Ministry of Development is in charge of most building projects, research and management comes from other specialized ministries. Development of new products is managed largely by the Ministry of Social Affairs in conjunction with the Ministry of Economics. The budget for capital investment goes to the respective ministries.

so the government just takes what it needs before it starts handing it out to the people, yes?

How is the government elected?: The dictator appoints people to fill most government positions, but if the dictator's approval rating goes below 50% he/she must step down and the general populace elects a new set of leaders.

ok, this one is clear.

How are industries organized?: Industry is managed mostly by individual ministries that need to build things. Naturally, the Ministry of Development has the largest industrial sector.

so they industries are centrally run.

have you done much research into the USSR? your economy is remarkably similar to how they set up their system.

Zerni (2): Yikes. What does your government do?


The Goverement runs the postal system, maintains an small miltary, a Police force and fire force and a few other things, its not a very big government and Zerni is a completely free market of 10 major mega corporations, several small companies and a horde of mom and pops stores, family owned and runned eating places, small farms, fishing villages, and other many small businesses. The head of state is the Emperor who gets the same treatment that the Japanese Emperor does and has the same amount of power that the preworld war two Japanese Emperor had and is served by several minstries.

Seocc:
-There are options and variations on products, but they are all made by the same central factories. There are no "brands".
-But it is flexible, because production can be increased, reduced, or stopped altogether whenever needed.
-Yes, all people are paid the same amount every month.
-No, the government puts the people first. The first thing that is done with income is that it is used to provide essentials to every legal citizen of the Empire. However, paying them is the last priority. The citizens are fine with that because they almost always get paid, and if they don't it's not like they have to pay to live, just for luxury items. Those can wait.
-Everything is centrally run, industry included. The government manages everything. Of course, there are backups if something were to happen to the government to ensure that things don't collapse so easily.
-Not much research into the U.S.S.R. at all, though I've got lots of tidbits that I've just picked up along my way.

Zerni: So your government basically does public goods and that's it?

Allemonde: But it doesn't work. That's the problem. Communism is impossible unless everyone involved is a selfless zombie. Any selfishness on the part of the citizens at all ruins it for everyone, and Humans are naturally selfish. I mean, come on... Would you honestly work your butt off if you knew that you'd get paid the same amount if you did nothing at all? Would everyone else?

Your system is communism in the same state capitalist system that brought down the Soviet Union. You are forcing people to work at probaly slave wages and live in tenemant housing with no way out. This is a form of dictatorship that cruely opressed people who didn't agree with there beliefs. Soviet communism is dead because it never really was true communism, merely another way for the elites to gain power.

The system I believe in is green liberal-socialism.
It would be a true democracy were everone has a right to vote.
There will be plenty of jobs.
Everyone would work in jobs that fitted there personalities, abilities etc.
Poverty would be eliminated.
Industry and business would be enviromentally friendly.
People will be proud to fork for a common goal and a common good.
Education, healthcare, and social services would be free.
No one will be forced to do anything. Total free will.
People will be happy and will live better lives with more free time.

Seocc:
-There are options and variations on products, but they are all made by the same central factories. There are no "brands".
-But it is flexible, because production can be increased, reduced, or stopped altogether whenever needed.
-Yes, all people are paid the same amount every month.
-No, the government puts the people first. The first thing that is done with income is that it is used to provide essentials to every legal citizen of the Empire. However, paying them is the last priority. The citizens are fine with that because they almost always get paid, and if they don't it's not like they have to pay to live, just for luxury items. Those can wait.
-Everything is centrally run, industry included. The government manages everything. Of course, there are backups if something were to happen to the government to ensure that things don't collapse so easily.
-Not much research into the U.S.S.R. at all, though I've got lots of tidbits that I've just picked up along my way.

Zerni: So your government basically does public goods and that's it?

Yep just about it, its a small goverement.

Zerni: So your government basically does public goods and that's it?

Yep just about it, its a small govenment.

Blasted Servers, multipost.

Allemonde: The server ate my long-winded reply and explanation to you, but suffice it to say that your interpretation of the system is incorrect and things are way better than you seem to think.

Zerni: That's cool. Different government styles are good.

Thank you, the Emperor is pleased that you like it.

-There are options and variations on products, but they are all made by the same central factories. There are no "brands".
-But it is flexible, because production can be increased, reduced, or stopped altogether whenever needed.

here's why it's not flexible: first, materials do not materialize on your doorstep. when you increase or decrease production you don't just implicate the factory, you implicate all the people supplying materials to that factory. this means your transportation infrastructure will be in constant flux, and centrally run committees are not good at dealing with flux. every time something changes they need to give their say so, so imagine the amount of work they'll have if you constantly have to reroute goods and the assets used to transport them.

second, workers. what do you do with workers if you decrease production out of the blue? one of the problems with the USSR was that they had nothing to do with people they'd guaranteed a job to, meaning they just slouched around at work. this, of course, lowered productivity all around, and you know where this story ends. and since in your country its illegal not to work you'd be illiciting a lot of negative feelings towards the government if you started throwing people out of work.

third, what happens to the managers of the plants if they don't meet central committee plans? since they get paid the same as everyone else you can't tell me there's a monetary incentive to work hard so it's safe to assume you fire them for failure. this means they'll have an overwhelming incentive to do what Alec Nove called 'self supply,' which is to exagerate their needs to the central committee to make sure they always have enough goods. this means your nation will have to consistently overproduce just to reach subsistence levels since managers are basically skimming goods in order to keep their jobs.

fourth, you have no ex post adjustment, no way for consumers to tell you if they want the People's Shoe. in fact, as shown in the point below, the lack of 'brands' actually makes your economy less efficient by eliminating the ability to change major production to an existing plan. no ex post means the central committee has to pick production, but how do these guys know what people want? in a market economy the corporate planners know by whether or not their product moves. in an ex ante economy like yours there is no feedback because there is no choice.

fifth, because you do not have competing firms if the existing plan fails you're left totally out of luck for several years while you scrape together enough capital goods to start another plan. you say there are no brands, meaning all products are the same, but what happens if the products suck? or if a flaw is found in the production process? or if people just plain hate the People's Shoe you're selling them? without competing firms you put all your eggs into one basket, same as the USSR, and you see where that led.

no competition also means decreased quality since managers need only meet production quotas, not quality quotas. but you can monitor quality, you protest; not really. because you're locked into one production plan, if quality sucks how do you fix this? you'd have to overhaul the factories, new capital goods, new workers, new training, incredibly expensive. and when you're running an economy that is already suffering from self supply inefficiencies chances are you don't have the resources to spare.

while i don't agree with Allemonde's fix, i agree you share a lot of the inefficiences the USSR suffered from. your system could be fixed rather quickly by instituting the following reforms over the next 10 RP years:

1) monetary incentives for plan success, give people a reason not to self supply. also, it gives the specialists detailed below a reason to work their asses off. also, give bonuses to the managers whose products are the most consumed in their class.

2) control of individual firms falls to specialist management teams, not the central committee. CC gives orders but management teams find new ways to meet them. this creates multiple plans, which fixes both the competition problem and structural inefficiences associated with a centrally planned economy.

3) allow ex post adjustment of production through consumer feed back. with multiple firms each following orders differantly people will be allowed to choose. as they choose they will favor one firm over another. take the plan of the succesful firms and put it in place in all other factories, making it standard. all managers will then continue to innovate, process continues.

that's my peace.

Wonderful. Well, it works for us.

Wonderful. Well, it works for us.

so here's my question: if someone pointed out that AK47 rounds can't pierce tank armor you woudln't say 'well our AK47 rounds can.' why is it that people get super anal about militaries but can't be bothered to RP their economies?

I am RPing my economy. I'm just not willing to type up pages and pages to answer all your questions. Don't get me wrong, they're great questions, and I do have a response to them all. It's just that I'm not a long poster generally, and typing really long responses is tedious for me, especially when it's just about how money moves in my country. And in answer to your last question... I suspect people don't get anal about economies because you can't shoot somebody with a dollar bill. It's stupid, I know, since economy affect everything else including military... but that's why I tried to explain mine here. So I don't want to write pages upon pages; so sue me, at least I'm making an effort.

argh, NS ate half my post.

the rest of it was supposed to say nothing personal, etc. i do respect the effort, it's just that if someone told me 'AK47 bullets can't pierce tank armor' and my reply was 'well mine can' i'd be a god moder. but when people have economic mechanisms that have been proven through real life enaction to have such and such problems and they just say 'well i don't have those problems' it give me an aneurysm. you're right, you can't shoot someone with a dollar bill, which bugs me since it means we're stuck in a lowest common denominator RP.

so anyway, i've given you my analysis. i can back it up with a lot of citation if you like but i doubt you want to look up obscure books from the Caimbridge Economics series. i would suggest, ic, the reforms stated, just because i do think they'll work better. but that's just me.

Noted.

Allemonde: The server ate my long-winded reply and explanation to you, but suffice it to say that your interpretation of the system is incorrect and things are way better than you seem to think.
True you government is a innofensive centrest democracy but even democracies can become dictatorships. My government hasn't gotten to the issue to change to a democracy yet but when we do will will change.
Maybe your goverment is more like China? A state-capitalist system, but a lot more liberal than China. Anyway I am trying to follow the way of Sweden or Denmark, which by the way has two of the highest standards of living in the world.

Well, good luck to you.

Well, good luck to you.

Sorry dude I wasn't trying to flame you. What ever floats your'e boat.

We would like to congratulate you on your excellent governmental system and remark on how incredibly similar it is to the Edolian system (both nations are called "The Socialist Empire of" interestingly enough).

The easiest way of describing the way the Edolian system works is that it is a "Communist Corpration." For all practical purposes, Edolia is a massive company where each citizen holds an equal share in the stock an is entitled to an equal share of the profits (and since they're the consumers as well as the employees, the wealth gets distrubuted very evenly). To cut down on beaurocracy, we have seriously decentralized the government. This of course means that we have higher levels of corruption but we feel that it is worth it to create a perfectly equal society that is not subject to the economic fluxuations of a capitalist society. I could go into greater detail about the system (I've worked out a pretty complex idea) but suffice to say that it is very similar to Xanthal's system (though we have a benevolent monarchy in control, not a democratic government).

We would like to invited Xanthal to apply to join the United NationStates Anti Oppression and Tyranny Organization, an alliance of mostly liberal (though being liberal is by no means a requirement and we have a number of more conservative nations) nations whose main goal is the promotion of human rights and freedom in the world and the downfall of imperialistic and corrupt nations. If Xanthal declines this offer, we would still like to make an offer of a personal alliance between Edolia and Xanthal for the mutual protection of our two nations.

Xanthal may indeed be interested in joining the United NationStates Anti Oppression and Tyranny Organization. Do you have a charter we could look at? Also, we would be very happy to sign a treaty of alliance with Edolia. Would you like us to draw one up for your review?

Xanthal may indeed be interested in joining the United NationStates Anti Oppression and Tyranny Organization. Do you have a charter we could look at? Also, we would be very happy to sign a treaty of alliance with Edolia. Would you like us to draw one up for your review?

We do not actually have an official charter. The alliance is a loose group of nations with similar ideals. We use our private forums (which are currently having some technical difficulties right now) as a convenient way to bring political or military support among the members of the alliance. There are no official military obligations but as we have seen in a number of occasions, members of the alliance are quite willing to protect allies if military help is needed.

I will send an application form for you to fill out via your telegram box. I would imagine that you would make it in to the alliance relatively easily. Whether or not you are accepted, we would like to make a private alliance with you.

Excellent. This is Xanthal's general purpose treaty of alliance. Is it acceptable?

Treaty of alliance: Xanthal/Edolia.
Article one- Henceforth the sovereign nations of Xanthal and Edolia will be required by law as applies to each nation to follow the terms set forth within this treaty until which time the treaty is made void by one of the conditions put forth in article two.
Article two- This treaty and all terms and conditions within are null and void upon the occurrance of any of the following: The dissolution of the sovereign governments in Xanthal and/or Edolia, the deliberate attack upon either signing nation by the other signing nation, the request of dissolution of the treaty given in writing by the government of one signer to the government of the other signer.
Article three- The sovereign nations of Xanthal and Edolia are hereby required to allow non-military traffic from both nations to pass freely through one another's space.
Article four- Vessels of type described in article three are subject to the laws of the nation's space which they are travelling through.
Article five- The sovereign nations of Edolia and Xanthal are hereby required by law to aid one another when one is attacked by a third party at the request of the attacked nation's sovereign government.
Article six- Article five is null and void in instances when the attack results directly from hostile action by the signing nation against the third party.
Article seven- Diplomatic relations will be established between the sovereign nations of Edolia and Xanthal in the form of open government-to-government communications and the exchange of representatives between signers.
Article eight- The sovereign nations of Edolia and Xanthal will take no military action against one another for any reason EXCEPT in response to a deliberate attack on one signer by the other signer.
Article nine- The sovereign nations of Xanthal and Edolia will accept that criminals (as defined by the laws in the area where they are cought) cought within the nation of either signer will be prosecuted and punished by the legal system of the nation in which they are cought.
Article ten- This treaty may be edited at any time with the consent of both signing governments.

Excellent. This is Xanthal's general purpose treaty of alliance. Is it acceptable?

Treaty of alliance: Xanthal/Edolia.
Article one- Henceforth the sovereign nations of Xanthal and Edolia will be required by law as applies to each nation to follow the terms set forth within this treaty until which time the treaty is made void by one of the conditions put forth in article two.
Article two- This treaty and all terms and conditions within are null and void upon the occurrance of any of the following: The dissolution of the sovereign governments in Xanthal and/or Edolia, the deliberate attack upon either signing nation by the other signing nation, the request of dissolution of the treaty given in writing by the government of one signer to the government of the other signer.
Article three- The sovereign nations of Xanthal and Edolia are hereby required to allow non-military traffic from both nations to pass freely through one another's space.
Article four- Vessels of type described in article three are subject to the laws of the nation's space which they are travelling through.
Article five- The sovereign nations of Edolia and Xanthal are hereby required by law to aid one another when one is attacked by a third party at the request of the attacked nation's sovereign government.
Article six- Article five is null and void in instances when the attack results directly from hostile action by the signing nation against the third party.
Article seven- Diplomatic relations will be established between the sovereign nations of Edolia and Xanthal in the form of open government-to-government communications and the exchange of representatives between signers.
Article eight- The sovereign nations of Edolia and Xanthal will take no military action against one another for any reason EXCEPT in response to a deliberate attack on one signer by the other signer.
Article nine- The sovereign nations of Xanthal and Edolia will accept that criminals (as defined by the laws in the area where they are cought) cought within the nation of either signer will be prosecuted and punished by the legal system of the nation in which they are cought.
Article ten- This treaty may be edited at any time with the consent of both signing governments.

A message is sent by the Imperator of Edolia, Erik von Blatterschplitt to the Xanthal executive leaders.

"We find the terms of the alliance acceptable and satisfactory. May the friendship between our two nations grow. We wish to invite you to a special signing ceremony and dinner in Edolia in five days. The Imperial family of Edolia would be pleased to treat top Xanthal government officials to a lavish feast in honor of the new alliance between our nations."

We would be honored to attend.
OOC: Make a thread if you want to, otherwise we'll just say it happened.

We would be honored to attend.
OOC: Make a thread if you want to, otherwise we'll just say it happened.

I've got to go to bed soon so I think we'll just say it happened.

Righto.