NationStates Jolt Archive

for OOC discussion relating to this thread. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2018687#2018687)

There.

--The Elected General Committee for Domestic Harmony of the Most Serene Republic of Xikuang, operating in full fluffy bunny capacity.

Ah, a chance to be bitterly sarcastic without the ubermod Menelmacar deleting it on sight. :roll:

She'll probably take 5 minutes instead.

Ah, a chance to be bitterly sarcastic without the ubermod Menelmacar deleting it on sight. :roll:

She'll probably take 5 minutes instead.

In OOC, it means you add comments to the topic at hand, the wargames in Skargarden. It does not mean that you can spam it with your comments, that you probably find very funny yourself.

So cut the attempt to be sarcastic, and start adding some constructive thoughts, or just don't post.

So cut the attempt to be sarcastic, and start adding some constructive thoughts, or just don't post.

hey hey, hey, you're hijacking our hijack thread. can we get a moderator in here to delete VC's post? no one is allowed to do anything in this thread except make fun of the SATO wargames.

So cut the attempt to be sarcastic, and start adding some constructive thoughts, or just don't post.

hey hey, hey, you're hijacking our hijack thread. can we get a moderator in here to delete VC's post? no one is allowed to do anything in this thread except make fun of the SATO wargames.

:shock:

:shock:

delete this one too! i hate those stupid faces!

getimgetimgetim!

Re: Roleplaying with ubertech nations/ magicslingers/ shadowdragon trainers--

I personally haven't entered into much roleplay with such like, and never in any combat situations-- then, I've never entered into combat at all and maintain no military. Personally, I'd prefer not to, but I recognise that people like to have their nations set in different worlds, or based on different premises, so I'm willing to tolerate it so long as people are reasonable and one of their 'different premises' is not PUNY HYOO-MAN! I, GODZOR, SHALL CRUSH YOU WITH MY MAGIC FROM BEYOND SPACE AND TIME!. I maintain a million-strong army of genetically engineered Orc ninja assassin supersoldier ignorers for that (and before you ask, they spend most of their time in hibernation and feed on naturally occurring subterranean lichen, so no, it doesn't cost my economy anyting).

Militarily, it's different. I would say that ubertech nations/ nations with magic/ nations wit Godzor really have no business entering military engagements with nations roleplayed as realistic, real-world nations. I personally would just ignore it, but I recognise tat my association with CACe obligates me to their history, and if-- IF-- it's been tolerated in the past, I am obliged to tolerate it now, but only up to a point. I think if someone were to send a fire-breathing invulnerable Drow sorceress cyborg to open up a temporary black hole over Frederick's Island or some such piece of nonce, we'd be perfectly within our rights to ignore it.

Knootoss's point (other thread) is also well made: things you use to engage normal, real-world nations should not be invulnerable to technology available to normal, real-world nations. If it's effectively invulnerable, in my book it's a fire-breathing Drow sorceress cyborg. Sorry. Have an Orc.

This has been a government-sanctioned plea for reasonability.

Re: Xikuang

Very reasonable! If conflict breaks out (which will NOT hapen), you should set some standards. For instance, make a deal that (my) hoverdynes would take out tanks at a certain ratio, say 9 hoverdynes can take out 11 tanks or something similar.

But nobody asks you to accept inpenetrable shields or poobreathing dragons. Nobody would accept that.

Re: Xikuang

Very reasonable!

Thank you!

If conflict breaks out (which will NOT hapen),

Bloody well straight up it won't, if us CACE lefties have anything to say about it.

you should set some standards. For instance, make a deal that (my) hoverdynes would take out tanks at a certain ratio, say 9 hoverdynes can take out 11 tanks or something similar.

But nobody asks you to accept inpenetrable shields or poobreathing dragons. Nobody would accept that.

Yes, and of course, some standards would have to be arranged by which hoverdynes could be taken out by existing tech we have. This is precisely the sort of thing that can make such interaction reasonable. I, of course, wouldn't have much in the way of anything that would do it... Xikuang has EDWD defense, but that's all; we don't have anything offensive.

Unless, of course, you're vulnerable to the sheer overpowering aroma of an army of yaks. They can be pretty offensive.

But nobody asks you to accept inpenetrable shields or poobreathing dragons. Nobody would accept that.

so let's examine a couple issues that will arise when SATO attacks us.

1) M plays that her gravships can circle the world in a day. everyone else's navies take a month or two to get into position. this means her premise gives her a not-right advantage.

2) SeOCC and the CACE pours ungodly sums into EDW. this is why we claim dominance; we are planned economies, we outspend you. but M claims that her networks are better than mind because ... she's 32k years old. see above re: premise.

3) Der Angst uses magic wielding psychic cyborgs. nuff said.

4) i have no problem with hoverdynes (assuming these are Ground Control inspired, or else i have no idea what they are). they're tanks, they float, they're not super fast or super armored, they die like tanks. they sound like tanks to me. no problem. but flying phalluses, ahem, battleships, with no physical theory to back it up at all, this i have a problem with.

5) as discussed with GMC at the CACE HQ, i don't mind modern +1 and you'll actually find i'm very accomodating to varied tech levels. what i campaigned for, ages ago, was a totally modular tech RP standard. this means that premise would not factor into anything at all, only objective standards. SeOCC has x population with y economy, z defense spending that i allocate here here and here. my enemy as b population with c economy and d defense spending which tye allocate here here and here. these objective ideas then bash up against each other regardless of the forms we claim they take.

M has a big navy, fine, but it doesn't have to fly. i have superior EDW, but if i RP with a WWII nation i'd RP this as superior radar, not the FJA's i use as a modern +1 nation.

now at this point, and please don't deny this, SATO is being overly rigid re: their tech. the line i keep getting is that if i don't like every little thing they say they have, if i don't accept everything you dictate, i should ignore you. how in the name of god is that reasonable? why not go for a modular tech RP model? why is it important that M has to have elven super soldiers that are 32k years old? why is her premise so sacred? what is wrong with just banging the various spending ratios, in an attempt to make RP as inclusive as possible, rather than bickering about whether magic beats bullets?

and let's not bullshit; AAM's will not hurt M's grav ships, at least not AAM's from SeOCC. they'd be shot down magically and let's not pretend they wouldn't.

so that's my bit on tech. i have always been accomodating, attempting to ensure neither side is put out. people that get angry at me about this usually have ubertech that gives them an advantage over me (an advantage based upon a premise, not upon RP or their nation's stats) that they don't like giving up.

Bloody well straight up it won't, if us CACE lefties have anything to say about it.


:lol: :lol:
Well done, X!

Well I hope we've reached some sort of reasonable way of dealing with different techs, but just in case we haven't I would like to make a brief response to a typical comment (DA made it in the other thread) namely that "if you don't completely ignore me you have to accept the entire premise" (or words to that effect).

Come on, that's clearly bullshit, and here's why:

Knootoss is modern tech and we, quite rightly, don't ignore him. He then turns up on our borders with half of SATO who appear to be mainly future tech. Who do we ignore now?

Skargarden isn't what you would call a regular poster and the only past history I'm aware of is with Svea Riga and the other Aperin nations. We're all RPing here, and when speaking OOC let's not insult each other by pretending this excercise is anything other than an attempt to aggravate CACE. (That's at best, at worst it's a precursor to an invasion of Seocc.) It can't be anything else, because there's no other reason for Skargarden to become involved in the thing. So, again, when a nation s drawn into the diplomatic crisis purely becasue it appears on OUR map and borders Seocc, it's hardly fair for anyone to say "ignore me or accept the entire premise."

So really, the options here are that you carry on and we ignore every one of you (including any potential invasion) or we reach amiddle ground that allows us all to compete on equal RP terms. That doesn't mean all militaries are equal, but it does mean everyone stands a chance if they RP the situation well.

Crikey, that wasn't as brief as I intended.

One final final thing. Despite what you say VC, I'm absolutely convinced that someone wants this to become an invasion. If you're genuinely telling the truth then maybe as many SATO members are being taken for a ride as CACE members. I'll leave that for you to ponder.

@ Seocc:

I acknowledge everything you stated up there. Roleplaying future tech is fantastic, because you can design almost everything you want. However, the trade-off is that contact with modern day nations becomes more and more difficult.

Now as for me, my hoverdynes are indeed the GC ones, just like my aerodynes are GC ones. In theory, this gives me groundforces somewhat stronger than their modern equivalents. But I hope you can work with it. The same goes for Tarasovka, he also uses near-modern tech. Knootoss uses modern tech.

Diablo_NL and me also use battlemechs, but we both limit the numbers, i.e. one mech needs about the same support as...well...a lot of tanks. For instance, in this whole wargame, I'm just using 36 of them. And I do not know about DNL, but I do acknowledge 'Mechs have weak points. As long as you don't try shooting it with an AK, that is.

That leaves Siri, which seems to be your biggest problem. I suggest you contact each other and start talking about a workable ratio, making you able to rp probably with her. I know you don't want this, but if this escalates and you still need to work that stuff out, we'll have a nice ignorefest on our hands.

@Celdonia:

I'm on IRC a lot with about every single wargaming nation, and I have no reason to suspect any participating nation of having the intention to stage an assault on CACE.

3) Der Angst uses magic wielding psychic cyborgs. nuff said.
Actually, only psychic Cyborgs (that will die if you shoot them with AK 47`s...) :P

And if you would actually ask nicely, i could give you a detailed description of what they are, how they are beaten, etc.

I actually take some pride in me having this stuff without being invincible. As a matter of fact, modern tech can beat me easily, if my opponent has a brain -> tactics. And there IS a reason why i silently assume that mental firewalls etc.. are simply exported DA products that are available worldwide so that in the case of conflict, other nations HAVE STUFF THAT HITS ME (Of course, CACE closed economy may have problems aquiring it...).

Besides, i would like to point out the following: We`re not fighting the workers revolution. We`re roleplaying (*gasp*, you didn´t know that, did you?).

That means, to actually do that, you need to *gasp* have respect for each other. Otherwise, it will suck, end in arguments, godmods, mass ignores, whatever.

One does not need to like each other. Respect is necessary.

This respect does not exist in the CACE- WBO relationships. For proof, look here. (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE)

That`s the reason why i do not intend to interact with CACE more than absolutely needed (aka when i`m actively approached by CACE, or i see a chance to mock SeOCC`s hypocrisy).

That brings me to the following:

Seriously, as long as you aren´t able to RP, but only to scream around 'OMG NOES TEHY HAV GODMOD GRAVSHIPS OF D00M STAY TEH HELL AWAY FROM YOUR OWN THREAD!!!111ONEONE', rather than 1. search for DIPLOMATIC solutions (If you`re unsure what i mean, search for 'diplomacy' in your dictionary) or try to find other ways to avoid defeat (Last i heard, 40cm coilguns tend to shoot down giant, not_exactly_maneuverable ships...)

~ Ministry for ooc affair, DA

I acknowledge everything you stated up there. Roleplaying future tech is fantastic, because you can design almost everything you want. However, the trade-off is that contact with modern day nations becomes more and more difficult.

see i don't really care about tech until war comes up because that's the only time it matters. of course is someone says they can conjure up buildings without materials that's stupid, but economies work just the same if you're using worker mechs or cranes. this is why i could RP with Lavenrunz without blowing a gasket; she has fusion reactors but fusion, nuclear, whatever, she's not telling me she's better than me because she's playing with some future stuff.

Now as for me, my hoverdynes are indeed the GC ones, just like my aerodynes are GC ones. In theory, this gives me groundforces somewhat stronger than their modern equivalents. But I hope you can work with it. The same goes for Tarasovka, he also uses near-modern tech. Knootoss uses modern tech.

re: Knootoss, he also uses way to many troops for how much he spends on military. but anyway...

well tanks are on a bell curve; you put a Sherman up against an Abrahms and it's not going to be a fair fight. i don't mind you having better tanks than me (i have no tanks but that's beyond the point), i mind them being better NOT because you put more cash into them but because you have a differant premise than mine. if you want to tell C that you have better tanks than his be prepared to explain how your spent more money etc etc; do NOT say you're 32k years old and that's why you're so special.

really, if people went for the modular approach there would never be problems. we'd have abstract conflicts that we could each filter as is appropriate to our premise. the problem with some people, M and DA for instance, is that they're rigid and WON'T use a modular approach. they want me to acknoweldge all their tech and they play to some made up weaknesses. why is this better than the modular approach, which makes neither side give up anything?

and that's what this is about: mutuality. both sides being treated the same, not having modern tech nations have to suck it up and 'find the weakness' of this or that.

and i know the appeal of future tech; i'm a huge fan of Gibson and i keep fighting the temptation to make SeOCC and Neuromancer-ish nightmare of corporations and railguns. but i don't because RP is more fun when you give yourself weaknesses to overcome, not when you overcome weaknesses with spacey ideas.

so here's the deal i'll present: if you can get the WBO/SATO to agree to modular tech rules i can almost guarantee the CACE will do the same. this will end, once and for all, any bitching about tech levels.

SeOCC: you won't hear any argument from me against that. As far as I know we are already pracicing that pretty much. I have spacedyships for example but only in "the future" The future tech nations should have their say however...

Also: when you say I have too many soldiers you forget the insane population I have. (Everybody has I should add), the frightening economy and the (relatively) high taxes. Taking my homeland the Netherlands as a benchmark nation with 1.6% of GDP military spending it would still amount to a military budget of: $299,250,000,000. Compare: 38.4 billion dollars for the UK. I've played measily army for a long time and it still is comparatively small but I think I can afford things like buying second hand Aircraft Carriers by now. Or maybe even some new stuff. :roll:

ooc: it's just that you're ranked SO LOW in terms of military. i mean if we all played by the population NS gave us a 1% of the pop. military would give me over 10 million people. that's just lame.

anyway, i don't have a problem with the troops, its just that 250k is a LOT for 'wargames' cofcof, and moving them is a pain. like i said, it took the US four months to get 200k people into position for the Iraq slaughter, how long did it take you?

OOC: I did raise about 15.000 places since my lowpoint. And actually I think that 1 full percent of the population is a tad bit much, so I play by 0,5%. And that isn't even a standing army. Unlike the US I don't maintain a military base in every allied nation which saves money. Instead, I just built bases in those nations that are really important to me for one reason or the other. :P Heck; I even have EOTED defending my coastline for a part.

However I will immediately grant you that military Numberwanking isn't my speciality. Some people love it, I don't. I stick to what is standard here, and Roleplay what 'in Ns terms' would be a sucky army for a nation my size. The thing with the huge troop numbers is that everyone does seem to use them and I simply go along with it. If I say that my army would be, like, 500.000 people it would probably be dwarfed by the Nationstates Tibetan home guard. :?

However if some kind of 'general roleplay agreement' could be reached to do something like divide everyone's population by a factor 10 or even 100 I would sign up.

Moving the troops took me 'a reasonable amount of fluidic time' as far as I am concerned. Time in NS is impossible to use: if you go by 1 NS day = 1 NS year it would have taken me four years for example. Or would you rather have that I limit my posting here to once a week to have enough "RL time" go by? Even if I did this other events in the NS world would go at a much faster or slower pace. Like the visits of Melkert and Bos to the CACE nations.

*goes into temporal shock*

However if some kind of 'general roleplay agreement' could be reached to do something like divide everyone's population by a factor 10 or even 100 I would sign up.

something like that; what i'd be more up for is people recognizing that Max forgot to CAP population growth, something that does happen; developed nations have, often, negative population growth.

one of the reasons i created the ACEPB was to justify my huge population. right now the number you see for SeOCC is the total 'population' of the ACPB/ACEPB zone because SeOCC is now part of a larger economy, thus can draw upon their resources. Metro SeOCC has only 300 million people in it, as per my announcement back when i turned 300.

i think a good agreement would be the population stated is the strength of the nation's economy, for instance. one worker in a US auto factory, for instance, has much higher productivity than a worker in an Indonesian sweatshop. if people voluntarily capped their pops and just let the growth represent increased economic growth (since all economies grow regardless of population) i think that would be fine.

so i capped mine, how about you?

Well, you do 'control' your entire stated population. Just spread out over different countries right?

As always is the case with disarmament things: I would be willing to cap in the context of a larger agreement amongst senior RPers. I am not voluntary going to make myself weaker in macroeconomic or military terms relatively to other NS nations. If, say, SATO, NATO Reich, Arda and CACE would all agree to do something like that in mutual RP I would definitly be in. And the rest would then probably follow in time. If people then refuse to play that game you can simply use your full ‘weight’ instead.

If you can pull such a thing off I'd be into it. However I don't think that a nominal number should be used as some nations will inevitably be larger then others. So dividing by 10 would be a good start I think. A nation of 85,5 million is much more pleasant to govern IMHO.

We could call it the "International Population Control Measure"

As always is the case with disarmament things: I would be willing to cap in the context of a larger agreement amongst senior RPers. I am not voluntary going to make myself weaker in macroeconomic or military terms relatively to other NS nations. If, say, SATO, NATO Reich, Arda and CACE would all agree to do something like that in mutual RP I would definitly be in. And the rest would then probably follow in time. If people then refuse to play that game you can simply use your full ‘weight’ instead.

you missed the point: what i propose is to RP having a set population but that population becomes 'stronger' as time goes on. a million people back in the 1700's could not produce as much as 10000 people now given new technologies. so you can always hit people with your full weight, you just cap your population like a real country has to because they run out of room.

and this wouldn't have to be a big agreement since it doesn't actually hurt you much at all (unless you look to raise 10 million person armies). if you want to RP a nation of 80 million just post a message like i did saying your capping your pop at 80 million people. while your population will contineu to grow in NS terms that will represent the strength of your economy, not more people. simple.

No, I don’t think so. While that would perhaps solve the economic problem I still want to be able to defend myself against nations my age. Also: it would make for unrealistically high GDP's per capita dividing a $35.000 GDP/capita for 855 million and use it as the capita for a nation of 85 million. Surely I’d be Godmoddlingly rich then and UN ratings would be totally screwed up. Imagine a nation with a GDP of $350.000. RecDrug Incorporate must really have a large profit margin. Your suggestion has it's merits but I'll pass for capping it off nominally.

To Valinon about his Battlegroup:

Well, got kinda used to your debarquing with an armada of space ships all the time :D
And I guess I didn't read attentivly.
But anyway, a battlegroup is still a battlegroup and not its a tad too much for simple observation tasks.
Oh well, doesn't matter now :)

No, I don’t think so. While that would perhaps solve the economic problem I still want to be able to defend myself against nations my age. Also: it would make for unrealistically high GDP's per capita dividing a $35.000 GDP/capita for 855 million and use it as the capita for a nation of 85 million. Surely I’d be Godmoddlingly rich then and UN ratings would be totally screwed up. Imagine a nation with a GDP of $350.000. RecDrug Incorporate must really have a large profit margin. Your suggestion has it's merits but I'll pass for capping it off nominally.

uh, you'd be amazed. have you examined the statistics that give out per capita GDP? have you stopped to wonder how badly the stats must be skewed if, as is in the case in Amerin, 1% of the population holds 95% of the wealth? and in America only 5% of households report annual incomes of 100k or more; that means COMBINED incomes of 95% of all families is less than 100k a year. think about how attrocious that is.

so actually you probably want your mean GDP to be 35k since if it's the average you're going to be facing huge income inequality issues (presuming you care about that at all). well if that's the case you'll be spreading out a lot more money than if the average was 35k, since you're a Kist country and your 1% will still own 95% of the wealth. the average person in the First World will, in their lifetime, use at least 50 times as many resources as the average person in the Third World. so really, if you're a succesful member of the Kist core having 'wealth' 10 times your size is rather unambitious.