NationStates Jolt Archive

Shemlock has finished work on a feasible Zero-Point Energy converter for Its armored vehicles.

what is zero point energy?-
http://www.zpower.net/zpe.htm

it seems to be a theory that even in a vacuum there is a tiny amount of energy in the particles, which can be tapped into as a source of energy when there is no other (hence the space bit, i presume)

however, the whole thing is flawed by the fact that in space, there are no particles to take the energy from.....

http://users.erols.com/iri/ZPENERGY.html

"in the 17th century, it was thought that a totally empty volume of space could be created by simply removing all matter and, in particular, all gases. That was our first concept of the vacuum. Just get rid of all the gas. Late in the 19th century, it became apparent that the region still contained thermal radiation. But it seemed that the radiation might be eliminated by cooling. So the second concept of getting a real vacuum is to cool it down to zero temperature. Just go all the way to absolute zero. Then we've got a real vacuum. Right? Well, since then, both theory and experiment have shown that there is a non-thermal radiation in the vacuum and that it persists even if the temperature could be lowered to absolute zero. Therefore, it was simply called the "zero point" radiation. Further proof is evident, as Dr. Forward points out in his tutorial below, when physicists have cooled helium to within microdegrees of absolute zero and still it remains a liquid! Only ZPE can account for the source of energy is keeping helium from freezing."

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-th/9901011

I don't have time to read all of this, and I'm sure you don't either but it seemed pretty solid to me from what I have read.

Yes ZPE excists. It's just almost impossible to tap it. And if you succeed in tapping it. There is a big chance your device would overload.
A ZPE converter for an armored vehicle is insane. Why? Well it is said that one cup holds enough ZPE to vaporise all the worlds ocean's. And since you don't carry an enourmas ammount of batteries, nor use all the power as you get it. The system would overload. Because all power tapped must be used. (storing power in batteries is also using it)
Ufologists speculate that "flying saucers" and other space craft use ZPE to power it. In this case it's feasible since enourmas ammounts of energy are needed if you would want to travel at the speeds they have been sighted at.
I myself use ZPE in my nation for A) Powering gigantic city's and huge ammount of computers B) Capitall ships, wich have a large power consumption.
As for powering armored vehicles I use smaller Fusion reactors.

well I was thinking of cold Fusion, but that is SO overused...

and then there was something called a "Rotary hydrogen engine" but I wasn't sure how much better than a gas turbine it would be...

And then there's ethenol... I don't think that would help much except mabey for the enviroment.

ZPE seemed more feasible than any sort of small fusion/fission reactor because you need a certain amount of plutonium/uranium to sustain a reaction for that.

I don't know, I guess it is pretty far fetched but it seemed like a good idea at the time

For fission you need uranium. But for fusion you need hidrogen.

If I'm not mistaken you need fission to produce fusion.

If you can create small-scale fusion why can't I have small-scale ZPE conversion?

Well you can. But if you use it to power something with not a high energy drain. You'll have a problem. Simply because on a small scale you still get an enourmas ammount of energy. And the energy you do not use or store, has to be used somehow. And thusly it will get converted to heat. Wich could be hot enough to melt you're tanks.

Like I said. You can ahve ZPE. You just can't power anything with not an insanely high need for power. It's comparable to say. Powering you're pocket calculator directly from the power station. All it's megawatts worth. It's just to much power.

wouldn't fusion be overkill as well?

A lot lot LOT less, actually. And you can always use feul cells.

so your telling me nomatter how small scale I made it it would always create to much energy? why?

Simple. There is no small scale ZPE. If you want less energy you try a smaller space to get ZPE from. But seeing as a coffee cup size space holds enough energy to vaporrise all the worlds oceans. You'll have to go real small. And to go so small you first must have done it on a big scale to understand it. And find out ways how to make it smaller.
It's like with microchips. They started out big and over the years became smaller and smaller.

So like, in NS time I could have them next month then :D

Yeah sure. Just never start out with something more advanced then such technollogy should start out with.

hmm. ok Ill *officially* research it for a while now

And then sometime in december I'll go back to using it in armored vehicles albeit with a "micro" slapped in front of it.

Clan Chaos Kestrel wishes you GOOD LUCk with your developments and may this not be a flop :?

{UP}Kaos Kestrel
www.unitedpowers.cjb.net

OOC: As I understood it from my physics professors (having taken basic/calc engineering physics towards a degree), "zero-point energy" is considered laughable. It is often used as one of those "get energy from nothing" schemes that scam artists use to trick people who don't have a rudimentary understanding of physics (like conservation of energy).

Here, let me show you another joke site: Di-Hydrogen Mon-Oxide (http://www.dhmo.org).

The site looks really good, no? DHMO, among other things is a major component in both acid rain and cancer cells. It is highly addicting (withdrawls always include death), contributes to erosion, and even reduces the effectiveness of automobile brakes. Moreover, it is found EVERYWHERE.

What is it?



















Water. Thats right, H2O. Two hydrogen atoms, one oxygen. But the site is very very convincing.

There are a lot of quack jobs out there who are very convincing that Zero-Point Energy exists. Many of them make such websites and other sources for fun. Others do it as a scam. Still more actually believe in it. But every reliable source I have read, every real physicist I have talked to, all of them agree that "ZPE" started out as a bad scientific hypothesis (not even a theory), and ended up as popular. Who wouldn't want to believe in the ultimate and seemingly unlimited clean energy source?

And before you restate that bit about absolute 0...absolute 0 has never been reached. It never will. There will ALWAYS be background radiation in ANY experiment you do...and some of that will transfer into heat one way or another.

ZPE is OK for game stuff, but I would avoid using it to power super-warships or mega-bombs. Such will get you ignored as fast as teleporting 50 million troops instantly into battle halfway around the world.

It's controversial, no doubt, but a lot of people ( not all idiots either) seem to think it isn't just a big joke.

It's controversial, no doubt, but a lot of people ( not all idiots either) seem to think it isn't just a big joke.

OOC: No, it is controvertial among those not well educated in physics or chemistry. It has nothing to do with intelligence, just with education. I challenge you to find mainstream scientists or research projects dealing
with "ZPE".

It is a lot like "metaphysics".

We humans have a strong desire to understand the nature of the universe. Unfortionately, few of us have the drive to do the necessary work (hell, even I lack most of it). So whereas religion has taken a back seat to science in modern/developed nations, people have started using "science" as their new religion.

Notice I put the word science in quotes. Science is actually just a logical process. The problem is that people think of it more as an understanding. Then, lacking education in hard sciences (especially mathematics), they misinterpret what scientists say.

I've touched on quantum physics (really just taken a quick look at a few forms of the equation and what they mean) in the classroom. It was an amazing experiance. Why? Because I realized that what I had thought scientists were saying before was completely wrong. I had misinterpreted their words. And that wasn't just true of quantum physics, but of electro-magnetics, of thermodynamics, of all sorts of neat little things.

No doubt, a lot of my conceptions are still misconceptions...but I have enough basic education to realize that. It's the old "the more you know, the more you realize you know nothing."

Take my word for it, "ZPE" and "cold fusion" are misinterpreted failed hypothesis.

Or better, don't take my word for it. Go out and look up credible scientists and research projects. Go to your local university and talk to professors, I guarentee you they will be happy (most are estatic) to explain what they do and what the scientific community is really thinking.

I challenge you to find mainstream scientists or research projects dealing
Kashimer, Nikolai Tesla, I forgot the name of that Canadian wich improved on Kashimer's work. Oh there are plenty of scientists working on it today.
Just because a group says i can not be done. Doesn't mean it's impossible. You should always try before saying it's to hard to do.

Once a scientists said it was impossible to fly, now every scientists says it's possible.
Once scientists said it was impossible to go to the moon, now scientists say it's possible.

Really. Why listen to the mass, wich is often wrong themselfs.

I challenge you to find mainstream scientists or research projects dealing
Kashimer, Nikolai Tesla, I forgot the name of that Canadian wich improved on Kashimer's work. Oh there are plenty of scientists working on it today.
Just because a group says i can not be done. Doesn't mean it's impossible. You should always try before saying it's to hard to do.

Once a scientists said it was impossible to fly, now every scientists says it's possible.
Once scientists said it was impossible to go to the moon, now scientists say it's possible.

Really. Why listen to the mass, wich is often wrong themselfs.

Nikola Tesla is long dead...he saw some modern physics, but isn't exactly "up to par." He was a genius, but not all of his work was realistic, or even possible. He is another person imortalized by people who don't understand even rudamentary physics. Here is an example (http://www.naturesalternatives.com/energy/?source=overture).

Kashimer? That one I don't know...or even the unnamed Canadian scientist you mention (kinda hard to know if you don't know a name).

Yes, understanding of physical reality does change...but what your agueing is that "anything is possible" rather then "current scientific understanding says it is possible."

Scientists "back in the day" didn't understand flight or orbital mechanics in the same way we do. Their perceptions were largely based on popular belief rather then mathematic equations. A lot has changed in the past thousand years.

The mass you mention isn't the collective scientific community, it is us. We who are largely ignorent of their accomplishments because we spend our time on other pursuits...fire-fighting, teaching, war, internet games. The problem is that we usually lack even a basic understanding of what they do. So we misinterpret them and think things such as unlimited energy or "the total vibrational state of the universe" are somehow psychic or devine or magical. We don't say that, we say they are scientific, but we believe it in the same way our ancestors believed in such things (such ideas which are still not entirely dead).

So, yes, why listen to the scientific community when we as individuals know that everything is possible, that our concept of the universe is correct, and that in the past, it has always been those scientists who were wrong? Why not believe in perpetual motion, unlimited energy, healing magnets, and the terrible side effects of DHMO?

Use for roleplay is one thing...but claiming "ZPE" and "cold fusion" are real without doing the research?

Before you truely start using these things in RP, consider this. Where is the fun in it? Where is the fun in RPing a perfect energy source that never needs fuel? Where is the world wide interaction? Where is the storyline? In a perfect world, where is the learning, the challenge, the fun?