NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.users.on.net/killerkoala/skambass.JPG
Ambassador Jade Purrlinda
The Free Land of Slagkattungerhttp://www.nationstates.net/images/un_member.gif
Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.
Email:- Slagkattunger@hotmail.com
Slagkattunger Nation Profile (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78165)
My Nations GDP (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=Slagkattunger)
Covered by DRI (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83705)

"Greetings nations of the world and beyond; I wish to announce that the Free Land of Slagkattunger government has decided to approve research into the development of a Space Elevator. This research is expected to take a while to complete and be very expensive for our nation, but my government considers this to be a worthwhile investment for the future of our nation. Thank you for your time."

Occ:- As she said this is my announcement of the development of a space elevator for my nation. Due to the fact I have limit access to a computer at the moment I grabed the first info I found relevent. If it's wrong or not complete please say so & provide the infomation to fix it thank you.

The Basics
The basic idea behind a space elevator is pretty simple. Here are the key components involved in constructing one:
An extremely tall base tower on Earth
A heavy weight orbiting the Earth
A cable that connects the tower to the weight
A spacecraft that can ride the cable into orbit
To better understand the concept of a space elevator, think of the game tetherball. In this game, a ball is attached to a pole by way of a rope. Think of the rope as the cable, the pole as Earth and the ball as the weight. Now, imagine that the ball is put into perpetual spin around the pole, so fast that it keeps the rope taut. This is generally how a space elevator would work. The weight at the end of the cable spins around the Earth, keeping the cable taut. The spacecraft would simply ride up the cable as a train rolls over tracks.
If this type of transport system could be built, we would see a rapid decline in the cost of boosting a spacecraft into orbit. The largest single cost in launching the space shuttle is the rocket fuel, but there are other costs, such as building and maintaining the vehicle and building expendable rocket boosters.

To get into low NSEarth orbit, the space shuttle burns approximately 4 million pounds (1.8 million kg) of fuel in eight minutes. That's a huge amount of fuel for a 200-mile (322-km) trip. With a space elevator, the need for rocket fuel is eliminated completely. The elevator draws its initial launch energy from an electrical-power station on the ground.

As the vehicle rides farther up the cable it requires less electrical energy, relying more on the centrifugal force produced by the spinning counterweight to pull it into orbit. By the time the vehicle reaches the end of the cable, it could be moving as fast as 6.79 miles per second (10.93 kps)! At these speeds, a vehicle could detach from the cable and fly off into space at speeds fast enough to reach Mars in days or weeks instead of months.

Largest Construction Project
The space elevator would be the largest and most difficult construction project we'd have ever undertaken. The base tower built on NSEarth would be 50 km tall. The extreme height of this tower would be necessary to anchor the cable to the Earth.

While this tower is built, scientists would also have to work on the cable itself, which would extend more than 89,000 mi (144,000 km) from the equator into space. By the time it is finished, the cable would cover a third of the distance to the moon. Both the tower and the cable would have to be constructed out of a material strong enough to span that large distance without being pulled apart by the Earth and the counterweight. Scientists think that a specially-equipped satellite could be sent into orbit to build the cable using nanomachines. Nanotechnology would enable the cable to basically construct itself one molecule at a time. It would extend down toward Earth to attach to the tower and up into space to attach to the counterweight.

Our scientists are proposing that this counterweight be an asteroid that would somehow be moved into a precise position and placed into orbit thousands of miles from Earth. If everything went as planned, this asteroid would orbit Earth, pulling the cable tight to allow a vehicle to slide up and down it.

Today, scientists are developing the components and designs that could allow for the construction of such a space elevator. It will likely take years to build the massive structure. According to our researchers, here are the key technologies that are being developed for space-elevator construction:

Carbon nanotube (CNT) - A lightweight material 100 times stronger than steel. Until recently, scientists lacked a strong material light enough to build a cable that could span more than 100,000 mi (160,934 km) into space. The development of carbon nanotube makes the space elevator a viable option. Carbon nanotubes are pure-carbon cylinders that were first created about a decade ago by zapping graphite with lasers. It has a tensile strength of 200 gigapascals (GPa); for comparison, graphite, quartz and alumina each have a tensile strength of just over 20 GPa. A scientist has said that a material used to build a space tether would need a tensile strength of 62 GPa.

Tether technology - Long cables that can transfer momentum from one object to another. Currently, tethers are used to attach astronauts to the space shuttle during space walks. Tethers attaching a spacecraft to a satellite could be used to pull the spacecraft up and then sling it into space with more velocity and fuel efficiency than current launch methods -- once this is successful, scientists can further pursue the idea of an NSEarth-to-space tether.

Electromagnetic propulsion - Electromagnetic propulsion currently allows a train to hover on a cushion of air, enabling the vehicle to travel at high speeds by eliminating friction. Magnetic levitation trains that can travel at more than 310 mph (500 kph) are already being developed in Slagkattunger. These trains use powerful superconducting magnets that give off a great deal of heat. Scientists are already searching for room-temperature superconductors that require no cooling and could be used to create maglev trains that require little energy.
The idea would be to combine all of these technologies to construct four to six maglev tracks that would run the length of the cable into space. The space vehicles would either stop at different stages to float satellites or other payloads into space or would use the track as a high-speed launching ramp. Such a space-transportation system could also allow you to take trips into space for about the same price as a plane trip.

Space infrastructure
Space infrastructure for transportation, utilities, and facilities out to GEO will be needed to to support space construction for the space elevator as well as space development in general. Incremental steps towards the development of this infrastructure could build a space-based economy that would eventually require the development of space elevators to support mass transportation to orbit.

Artist Concept of the Space Elevator while looking from space
http://www.users.on.net/killerkoala/elevslag.JPG

Can we Resi-ize it, meaning build shops in the elevator and around the base and top? Oh, and how much would it cost us to use it periodically for satellites and such?

The Mushroomius space program toyed with this idea a bit. We developed materials and technologies that would make the project feasible, but our need for Earth to space transport is not that great (totals ranged in the 400 billion to the 1 trillion area).

You may consider hollowing out an asteroid for your "weight" at the top of your lift.

Can we Resi-ize it, meaning build shops in the elevator and around the base and top? Oh, and how much would it cost us to use it periodically for satellites and such?

"Well the scientist don't think you can build in the elevator, but we can discuss building shops in the Asteroid & around the base. Also if you were to help us to aquire the asteroid we could waive costs for a set period & then rework the deal after that period. We wouldn't consider this if it wasn't for our good working relationship we have already established."

The Mushroomius space program toyed with this idea a bit. We developed materials and technologies that would make the project feasible, but our need for Earth to space transport is not that great (totals ranged in the 400 billion to the 1 trillion area).

You may consider hollowing out an asteroid for your "weight" at the top of your lift.

"We have noticed that you sell space shuttles, if you were to provide some when we start to build we could repay you by allowing you to use our facilities for a certain period of time. How does this sound to you?"

Edit:- "Hollowing out wouldn't work due to the fact that we can't spin the asteroid."

The Mushroomius space program toyed with this idea a bit. We developed materials and technologies that would make the project feasible, but our need for Earth to space transport is not that great (totals ranged in the 400 billion to the 1 trillion area).

You may consider hollowing out an asteroid for your "weight" at the top of your lift.

"We have noticed that you sell space shuttles, if you were to provide some when we start to build we could repay you by allowing you to use our facilities for a certain period of time. How does this sound to you?"

We do sell space shuttles, and we have the the largest Earth orbit construction network... on Earth.

Mushroomius is a proud participant of the international space station project, and we would be more than happy to arrange a deal with you.

We can use several of our Ravens to reposition an asteroid into the proper location around the orbit of Earth. It'll take some time, and a whole lot of math.

We do sell space shuttles, and we have the the largest Earth orbit construction network... on Earth.

Maybe.

Mushroomius is a proud participant of the international space station project, and we would be more than happy to arrange a deal with you.

Later.

We can use several of our Ravens to reposition an asteroid into the proper location around the orbit of Earth. It'll take some time, and a whole lot of math.

"There is no rush at the moment as we are still developing the technology for this (ooc:- I figure 10 RL days before I start building). But we would appriciate the assistantance from your nation.

<snip>we would be more than happy to arrange a deal with you

"Thank you, our scientist predict we will need them in around ten years time, we will contact you before then to come to an arrangement if that's okay with you."

We've been working on a Martian space elevator for our Green Mars colony, but it's nowhere near completed. We can donate the plans for that to you.
http://invisionfree.com/forums/Corporate_Islands/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=251

"Hmmmm tempting Resi Corporation....but no our scientist and econimists both say that developing the technology ourselves will give us a better understanding of the technology. As well as allowing our infrastucture to form and our economy to grow to be able support this project."

ooc:- Ok gotta go be back tommorow maybe not....depends weather I get access to a computer :( or not.

We understand completely, and we were only offering you the tech as you are an extremely valuable ally. We respect your drive to work out the technology yourself, and we will offer you any funding/assistance we can with this project.

[ooc- You'll find this article (http://www.sciencenews.org/20021005/bob9.asp) helpful if you want a real world reference point.]

Scientists in Pablicosta say-"We cant beleive it"

You see, 35 years ago in Pablicosta we began digging, digging two holes. We dug right through the Earths crust in 17 years, and began using the holes for their purpose. One hole was used to gain an unlimited supply of Geothermal energy (from the bed of molten rock beneath the crust). The other hole had a different purpose. We did not dig right through the crust, we kept going. Special vehicles and machinery cleared out the lava flow from beneath the area and we dug. 3 Years ago we reached our target depth, deep into the hardest rocks on the planet. Thousands of times harder than the purest diamond. Untill now, nobody outside the Pablicostan Space Secrecy Of Operations Comitee has knowledge of the purpose of this whole. Now you will find out.

Deep in the depths of the whole, after the precious minerals were escavated, we planted a base. About 100 km high, yet it was still out of view due to the depths of the whole. Constructed of Molecular Pyro Fibres, the structure can withstand unmeasurable pressure and temperatures. From the "Base Tower Facility", we began laying five pre-prepared cabels, again made from fibres which defied the laws of physics and chemistry.
Then came Phase Two. From Pablicostas Launch facility onboard the ISS, a module nicknamed "FODU"(Future Operations Deployment Unit) detached from the site and began freely orbiting the Earth, constantly tracked by Pablicostan Computer Tracking stations. When the orbit was remotely corrected to a prefect level, Phase Three was ready to initialize.

From Five points relativly close to the "hole", five remarkable shuttles launched into space. Completely self powering they blasted off from raised platforms arround 2 miles up to make launch easier. The broke through the atmosphere perfectly and allmost syncronized. Then the important and most dangerous part of the mission. Two crew men abord the FODU, and the 15 men from the shuttles connected Five ends of cables to the FODU, with the other end inside the shuttle. The mission now half completed, the shuttles began a flight back to Earth. But, a complexity-The Shuttles MUST land in Pablicosta, or this misssion will be discovered before its time. Thankfully,. this was a success and the shuttles re-entered the atmosphere above Pablicosta. But the operation was not finished, they were still trailing the cables, as they leveled out at 53,000ft. To finally take care of the mission though, a remarkable bbost of energy dteached the cabels from the shuttle, and a gravity pulled the cabels to Earth. The shuttles landed safely and their part was done.
Obviously, in Phase four the cabels were atatched and done very well, creating a firm line between the two stations.

This brings us to today, when the first test of the Pablicostan Earth to Space Orbital Transportation Accelorator (PESOTA) will take place.
A 15 Ton load will rise up the cable, stopping and securing at the FODU, where it will unload and return.

Sorry, lack of detail, gotta run...

We've been working on a Martian space elevator for our Green Mars colony, but it's nowhere near completed. We can donate the plans for that to you.


((That wouldn't be much help. Such a structure would be easier, less expensive, less massive, to build on Mars due to gravity issues.))

ooc:- Time on comp is tight so this will be short :(

We understand completely, and we were only offering you the tech as you are an extremely valuable ally. We respect your drive to work out the technology yourself, and we will offer you any funding/assistance we can with this project.

Ic:- "We thank you for you offer, and we would appriciate you moving the unclaimed asteroid at this location (coordinates sent) to the position above our nation our scientists have determined (More coordinates sent)."

"We are pleased to announce that we are nearly ready to start construction of the Space Elevator in the Free Land of Slagkattunger. We will soon be contacting Resi Corporation and Mushroomius to develop a working understandment with these nations for their help in building the Space Elevator."

"We have now entered the construction stage of this project, behind schedual due to trouble with some of the research. But this delay has been benificial as the economy of Slagkattunger is even stronger than before and the building of this elevator will not strain the economy as much."

ooc:- Resi Corporation and Mushroomius chech your TG

A team of forty Raven units has been selected to reposition the asteroid. This team consists of mostly units from the Noble Bomb, Red Bomb, Steel Maiden, and Gothic varieties, chosen because of their heavy load compacity. The group is en route to the Martian/Jupiter asteroid belt to select an asteroid of the appropriate size and shape for the construction, after which they will move it into the position specified.

This will cost you $2,000,000,000, and allowing us permanent use of the space elevator.

A team of forty Raven units has been selected to reposition the asteroid. This team consists of mostly units from the Noble Bomb, Red Bomb, Steel Maiden, and Gothic varieties, chosen because of their heavy load compacity. The group is en route to the Martian/Jupiter asteroid belt to select an asteroid of the appropriate size and shape for the construction, after which they will move it into the position specified.

This will cost you $2,000,000,000, and allowing us permanent use of the space elevator.

"This sounds reasonable, although there will be some ristrictions on the use of the space elevator which will be layed out in the contract. If you agree to these things the first $1,000,000,000 will be wired & the remainder wired after the asteroid is in place."

Contract on the use of the Space Elevator.
In return for unlimited use of the Slagkattungerian Space Elevator, I the signee agree to the following ristrictions.
The Free Land of Slagkattunger Military will have prioity use of the Elevator in the event of a declared state of emergancy by the Slagkattunger Government.
Nothing that violates the laws of Slagkattunger will be transported/used on Slagkattungerian property unless granted permission by the Slagkattunger Police/ Military. The following items are banned and will not be given permission under any conditions (This list can be altered by the Slagkattungerian Officials after advising the signee.): -[list:3d3d77542c]
Items classed as Weapons of Mass Distructions.
Slaves
Does not provide transportation of individuals belonging to nations on the Slagkattungerian Warning List.[/list:u:3d3d77542c]

This can be changed by the Slagkattungerian Government after receiving notarized written consent from the signee.

We are warry of that last statement (the one printed in red). It makes it sound as if once we sign the document, you can manipulate the terms of the document to your free will while only giving us warnings of your doing this. Perhaps a point of clarification is in order?

We are warry of that last statement (the one printed in red). It makes it sound as if once we sign the document, you can manipulate the terms of the document to your free will while only giving us warnings of your doing this. Perhaps a point of clarification is in order?

"If you note that it says after advising the signee, meaning we won't change it without warning. Care to suggest a wording that would make it acceptable to you while allowing us to adapt the document to future unforseen needs?"

"If you note that it says after advising the signee, meaning we won't change it without warning. Care to suggest a wording that would make it acceptable to you while allowing us to adapt the document to future unforseen needs?"Of course, but that's what worries us. We would much prefer it to say: "This can be changed by the Slagkattungerian Government after receiving notarized written consent from the signee."

It makes the proposal a mite more democratic, don't you think?

OOC: There have been several space elevators in NS history, all have been built by nations who's players did not understand vectors.

It turns out that vector analysis is very important in regards to space elevators...as it shows why space elevators really aren't all that feasible. Here is how it works:

A vector is simply an arrow. It has two components, direction and magnitude. The direction is simply where the vector points, the magnitude is represented by the length of the arrow, and typically measures force, acceleration, velocity, kinetic energy, or similar. So how is this useful?

This of Earth as a 2D circle. You want to build a space elevator from the Earth's surface to an asteroid in geosynchronous orbit over Earth's equator (anywhere else and the Earth would spin faster or slower then the asteroid, and the cable would pull the asteroid in). OK, great, you have a cable. Now what happens when you send something up? Vectors.

The cable literally sends an object up, straight up from Earth's center. But the asteroid isn't simply straight up...the Earth is turning, the asteroid is orbiting, remember? Because the cable is only pulling your object/spacecraft straight up, your object is not gaining any velocity tangential to the Earth. But it is still attached to the cable.

So the object starts pulling the cable backwards...to the West. Basically, it starts stealing kinetic energy from your counterweight, from your asteroid. If the cable breaks, you have a large, heavy cable falling hundreads or even thousands of miles down onto your nation (and many others). If it doesn't, then after X launches, it pulls the entire cable AND asteroid/counterweight back down on Earth.

I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to know that either one of these situations are very bad.

The ONLY solution to this that I know of is to put a rocket engine on the asteroid...to prevent it from falling. Problem is that that engine requires fuel...fuel brought up from Earth...fuel that itself requires acceleration tangential to Earth. Now your back at the very same problem, expensive launch costs due to fuel.

Space elevators are therefore not economically feasible and very VERY dangerous. I suggest you reconsider your proposal or put some serious research into solving this problem.

((OOC: But couldn't we just give the asteroid a push or continuous boost in the right direction at exactly the right velocity? This would get it to move with the Earth, instead of just crashing into it or causing the cable to break. ))

((OOC: But couldn't we just give the asteroid a push or continuous boost in the right direction at exactly the right velocity? This would get it to move with the Earth, instead of just crashing into it or causing the cable to break. ))

Err, you don't get it. Think of it like this.

Objects don't orbit just because you put them up high...it has more to do with shooting them sideways.

If Earth was a perfect sphere, without an atmosphere, and you had a strong enough gun, you could shoot yourself in the back.

When you fire a bullet, it falls at about 9.81 meters per second. If you shoot it fast enough, it will fall around the curvature of the planet. That is, by the time it falls, the Earth has curved down below it.

This is what you do when you orbit something (though most orbits are ellipses rather then circles...a special type of ellipse). Basically, you shoot it sideways.

If you were to just place it up above Earth without shooting it sideways, it would fall straight down.

So you orbit an asteroid, OK, great. It is moving sideways and falling around the Earth.

You make sure it is in Geosynch orbit (I think about 22,000 kilometers above Earth's equator). This is good, it means the asteroid is ALWAYS over the same place on Earth.

And you drop a cable from it to the Equator, this way the cable doesn't streach. So far, so go.

Now, you put something on the cable and lift it. NOT GOOD.

Think about it. A bigger tire spins fewer times to go the same distance as a smaller tire...the bigger tire has a larger circumfrance(sp?).

The object your trying to orbit is on a small spinning tire, and your lifting it up to to the edge of a larger spinning tire. The object has to speed up. But the elevator only pushes it upwards, not sideways, so the object drags the elevator and the asteroid backwards, to the West.

The object has to get it's kinetic energy, it's sideways speed from somewhere, it gets it from the cable and the asteroid. The cable and the asteroid then have less...their orbits change.

The rest is history...as are any nations West of the cable and asteroid...and possibly elsewhere in the world if a tidal wave is caused by a cable several meters/yards thick and 22,000 kilometers long with an asteroid attached to the end.

EDIT: Answer: No. Energy is conserved, you have just mauled the Earth with a huge freakin' ball and chain.

[ooc- You'll find this article (http://www.sciencenews.org/20021005/bob9.asp) helpful if you want a real world reference point.]

ooc:-Wazzu you may want to look at this link as it attempts to answer questions similar to yours. PS did you read the first post? And why wait so long to make a comment?

IC:- "We have reworded the contract as you have requested, will you sign it now?"

ooc:- This Space Elevator is going ahead mate, Wazzu had over a month to object & didn't now that we are starting he objects :?

ooc:- Heres a picture to help understand the design of the space elevator.
http://www.spacer.com/images/elevator-chart-bg.jpg

The satellite is the asteroid.

PS I got this off another site where they discuss the viability of a space elevator..they said it could be done, NASA said it could be done, many other websites say it can be done, but Wazzu has a problem with it..Oh well :P

Still if it were feasable that the asteroid could remain in its position, we must say that if you succeed in this project you would severely endanger the populace of earth.

The cable from the space elevator would be in the same orbit as so many other sattelites and space vehicles, what happens if the cable hits one of these spaceship/structures?

You would have space debris raining down on earth, yes most of the debris would burn up in the atmosphere, but with the current tech from space nations their ships are huge and strong. And ofcourse the space nations that lose these ships will not be happy.

Just a warning, do not expect everyone using the earths orbit to move aside for your little project.

<Snip>Just a warning, do not expect everyone using the earths orbit to move aside for your little project.

We informed NSEarth of our intentions nearly 30 years ago, the majority of NSEarth has adjusted their satellite orbits since then to take it into account. Also we chose the location of the space elevator to avoid stations constructed before our announcement, and we have not detected anything belonging to a nation that has ignored our declaration in its orbit.

So let me assure you that nothing in orbit will be affected by our construction of the space elevator, and as to your concern of a spaceship colliding with it...well only a very stupid nation uses incompentent pilots on these expensive vessels. Hence no spaceship will collide with it, also we will use space tugs we are developing to gently push spaceships incapable of altering their orbits into a safer orbit to conduct repairs.

[ooc- You'll find this article (http://www.sciencenews.org/20021005/bob9.asp) helpful if you want a real world reference point.]

ooc:-Wazzu you may want to look at this link as it attempts to answer questions similar to yours. PS did you read the first post? And why wait so long to make a comment?

OOC: The article does not even approach an answer to the question I asked...more evidence that you don't understand what I'm talking about. Yes I read the first post. And I took so long because I only JUST saw this thread.

IC:- "We have reworded the contract as you have requested, will you sign it now?"

ooc:- This Space Elevator is going ahead mate, Wazzu had over a month to object & didn't now that we are starting he objects :?

OOC: As I said, I responded at the earliest possible oppertunity, as soon as I saw the thread.

ooc:- Heres a picture to help understand the design of the space elevator.
http://www.spacer.com/images/elevator-chart-bg.jpg

The satellite is the asteroid.

PS I got this off another site where they discuss the viability of a space elevator..they said it could be done, NASA said it could be done, many other websites say it can be done, but Wazzu has a problem with it..Oh well :P

I understand what a space elevator is. I have been a sci-fi nut since I was about 11 years old (over 12 years now). I'm also one of the most qualified people in NS when it comes to physics...at least of those who are active.

NASA isn't one big entity, it is a mix of individuals, corporate contractors, non-profit organizations, political groups, university groups through grants, and others. Everyone has their own motives, their own strengths, and their own weaknesses. NASA as a whole, from the top of the organization, has NOT said it can be done. It has researched into possibilities, but it has NOT said it can be done.

Or at least, I haven't seen where it has said that. Want to show me?

Do I think it is possible? Yes.
Do I think it is dangerous? EXTREMELY.
Do I think it is profitable? Not by a long shot.

Until you can understand and address the problem of decaying orbit due to tangential KE transfer to lifting objects, I'll maintain that you don't know what your talking about...and Wazzu will maintain that your trying to do some serious damage to Earth.

IC post to follow soon.

OOC: I always though decaying orbit wasn't proven...or are you talking about the asteroid?

OOC: I always though decaying orbit wasn't proven...or are you talking about the asteroid?

OOC: I'll try and make it simple.

Take a peice of paper. Draw a small circle for Earth, and a larger circle around it representing geostationary orbit.

Put a dot on Earth's surface. Draw a line stright up to geostationary orbit and put another dot.

The top dot is the asteroid, the bottom dot is the elevator, and the line is your cable.

Now, the elevator, your bottom dot, is moving around the Earth at 464.5 meters per second. The asteroid, your top dot, is moving at 2,545 meters per second. Thats a difference of 2080.5 meters per second.

But your cable only lifts the elevator UP. If you were to put it in space and moving only at 464.5 meters per second, it would fall to Earth.

Since it is attached to the cable, the cable will pull it sideways (East)...and according to Newton's Laws, it will pull the cable in the opposite direction (West) with the same force.

Either the strain of pulling the elevator to the side is too much, and the cable breaks (in which case a lot of it falls to Earth), or the cable holds (in which case it brings the entire asteroid down to Earth).

The math is really really simple using either kinematics (as above) or energetics.

You must have misunderstood me...

I know of all of that...

my question is...Is it proven?...or at least considered by most to be true...or is it just one of many theories?

You must have misunderstood me...

I know of all of that...

my question is...Is it proven?...or at least considered by most to be true...or is it just one of many theories?

OOC: Actually, I haven't seen anywhere where it is discussed. But mathematically, it is an unavoidable problem.

The ONLY way I have ever thought of getting around it (and the problem of air friction) is to have a rocket engine one the asteroid. But then your using fuel again, just like in a shuttle.

I just skimmed over this thread...but slagkatt...is using fuel a problem?

I just skimmed over this thread...but slagkatt...is using fuel a problem?

OOC: The idea of the elevator is to get around using fuel...because you need fuel not just to lift your shuttle/crew/cargo, but to lift the rest of the fuel being used. Kinda like carrying water in a desert, the more you carry, the more you need to drink.

Putting rocket engines on the asteroid would have the same problem. If you lift the fuel to the asteroid from Earth, then you need more fuel to give it more "sideways speed" (the non-technical term) as well.

You come up with a little less fuel needed, and a whole lot more electricity...in cost, about even...except that you need to build a 100,000 kilometer structure out of an advanced material (in Wazzu known as "common cardboard") and attach it to an asteroid that you have moved into geostationary orbit. Not cheap.

Exactly why I just stick to ships I suppose

Hmm, a second options is to use two cables, one main cable, for the elevator, and one cable to pull the asteroid forwards. Don't know if its feasable, just a thought ^_^


___________<-- o (asteroid)
_____________ /|
____________ /_|
(guide cable)_ /__| (main cable)
__________ /___|
------------------------------------ (earth)

A messenger arrives from Wazzu to the appropriate Slagkattunger space agency. She carries a peice of parchment, rolled and tied with ribbon, and no weapons. She is afterall, only a messenger (Don't shoot her!).

Opening the message, the proper authority will find a handwritten note.

Wazzu views the space elevator project as extremely dangerous. Until Slagkattunger can convince Wazzu that it has solved the problems of degrading orbit due to energy transfer and wind, Wazzu will not let this project proceed. Over 1.8 billion Wazzu citizens and other people all over the world are at risk.

All possible peaceful means will be attempted. We hope that military force does not become a necessity. Should it, we will not hesitate to use it.

In the spirit of peace, Wazzu offers technical help in constructing either a Ram, Gauss, or Rail accelerator to help your nation move payloads into space efficiently. We recognize the hard work and expenses people of your nation have undertaken for this project, and do not want to see you come away empty handed.

Future contacts can be made via standardized international broadcast signals to <geostationary satelite coordinates>

~Brian Walton, Cheif Board Member, Dominion of Wazzu
~George Starbuck, WSA Coordinator

Hmm, a second options is to use two cables, one main cable, for the elevator, and one cable to pull the asteroid forwards. Don't know if its feasable, just a thought ^_^


___________<-- o (asteroid)
_____________ /|
____________ /_|
(guide cable)_ /__| (main cable)
__________ /___|
------------------------------------ (earth)

OOC: Nope. The asteroid would only pivot on the front cable towards the ground.

You could build a ring around Earth and put 2 or more cables up, but then you'd have to knock every geostationary satelite around Earth into a different (and non-geostationary) orbit.

ooc:- Wazzu I repect your intelligence and your desire for realisim...but mate it's Free Form Role-Play, just pretend that it works so I can use it to help tell a story. You should be happy I'm not going with my first insticts, which was to use anti-gravity technology.

Ic:- The nation of Wazzu recieves a package from Slagkattunger with a letter.
This package contains the requested information on how we have solved the problem you raised. As you will see the solution is stupid..but it works, we found it out entirly by accident just as we were about to scrap the project 20 years ago. As you know people said man wasn't ment to fly and yet he does, now people will know that this is possible too.

ooc:- Who knows the solution may be something so stupid that it couldn't ever work...but does.

Construction of the Space Elevator has begun, it is expected to take 2 years and 6 months to complete the first stage.

Asteroid is finally in position and the tower structure in Slagkattunger is running slightly behind schedual. The first two shuttles will be lifting off to start the construction of a station aboard the asteroid, this process is expected to take another 2 and half years to reach the stage where we can start to connect the asteroid to the tower. A month after the first two shuttles take off a third one will take off to deliver the satellite that will deploy the guide wire for elevator cable.

OOC: A stupid solution requires a stupid anti-solution. Try anti-grav. Or hell, try something.

IC:- The nation of Slagkattunger recieves a package from Wazzu with a letter.


This package contains information on how we disagree that your solution is valid. As you will see, the mistake was stupid. We found it entirely by accident just as we were about to pass your project. As you know people said space elevators worked, now we know that they don't.

Wazzu will not let this project proceed. Attempts to cause massive damage to the Earth will result in force, if necessary. We implore you not to let it come to that. Let us help you with a more reasonable and less dangerous solution.


OOC: Sorry, this doesn't cut it. And there really is a much better solution...faster, cheaper, and a hell of a lot less dangerous then smashing Earth with the world's largest ball and chain.

ooc:- Sorry you feel that way.......But I'm going to use it for RPing in space. I suggest that you accept it in the spirit of good RP also I think you will find that going to war on a theroy is just a poor reason.

PS The NSEarth is already dead...all those nukes fired by noob's have destroyed it.

ooc:- Sorry you feel that way.......But I'm going to use it for RPing in space. I suggest that you accept it in the spirit of good RP also I think you will find that going to war on a theroy is just a poor reason.

PS The NSEarth is already dead...all those nukes fired by noob's have destroyed it.

OOC: Good RP What RP? Other then half-$@#ed news articles about what is/was being done I haven't seen any RP.

It isn't going to war on a theory, it is preventing a HUGE FREAKIN' ASTEROID AND 100,000KM LONG SUPERROPE from smashing into the Earth with enough force to cause global tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanos, fires, and dust so thick as to create an artificial winter. Even then, it needn't be a full war, just enough to prevent catastrophe.

And yes, if some nation thought another nation was doing something to endanger it, it would be likely to try and stop it by all means necessary. Being peace-loving, Wazzu has offered alternatives. It's your own nations choice if they accept them or not.

PS. n00bs only have nukes in their acid laced daydreams. Wazzu is still around thank you very much.

ooc:- This was just to announce my intentions & building of this structure not an actual RP...it's a tool I can use in an RP, Just because you think it can't work doesn't mean that it won't.

May I point out that I have seen several nations with large space stations in orbit of NSEarth (Some with nukes on them), they are just as bad as an asteroid.

And I like to point out...your nation could be considered a threat to other nations for it's "police attitude" who would take this as a sign of you agreeing that they can attack you.
And yes, if some nation thought another nation was doing something to endanger it, it would be likely to try and stop it by all means necessary.

ooc:- This was just to announce my intentions & building of this structure not an actual RP...it's a tool I can use in an RP, Just because you think it can't work doesn't mean that it won't.

OOC: I've shown the real physics as to why it won't work...or rather, to why it is both impractical and dangerous. Not that it matters. All that matters is that Wazzu, ICly, thinks it is dangerous.

May I point out that I have seen several nations with large space stations in orbit of NSEarth (Some with nukes on them), they are just as bad as an asteroid.

Those stations are neither as massive as the required asteroid, in as high orbit (having as much potential energy), nor tethered to Earth (resulting in the eventual and probably quick deorbit). While the weapons they carry are threats, there are ways to neutralize those threats.

Besides which, secretly (and you only *know* it OOCly), Wazzu also has nuclear weapons in orbit...though certainly not on something as vulnerable as a space station. It also has a (very public) nuclear first-use policy for anything above the van-allen radiation belts of a given planet (which means Earth).

And I like to point out...your nation could be considered a threat to other nations for it's "police attitude" who would take this as a sign of you agreeing that they can attack you.

Actually, Wazzu rarely intercedes compared to many other nations. This is just seen as a "clear and present danger." Though other nations are quite welcome to try an attack if it is in character for them to do so...no guarentees on how they will come out afterwards.

Question is, is your nation up for a swing?

ooc:-*Sigh* let's just agree to disagree...Your in a group that say it won't work & I'm in the group that say it will. Attacking me for oocly differences is not on, Icly it's too late as the asteroid is already in orbit. Might I point out that (as you have mention in another thread) this is Free Form Role Play and as such you cannot tell me what I can or cannot do. In my RP (and I think I might RP the opening of it to the public) not only does it work & does not fall to the earth, it proves to be a major achievement for Slagkattunger transporting materials (and people) into and from space.

ooc:-*Sigh* let's just agree to disagree...Your in a group that say it won't work & I'm in the group that say it will. Attacking me for oocly differences is not on, Icly it's too late as the asteroid is already in orbit. Might I point out that (as you have mention in another thread) this is Free Form Role Play and as such you cannot tell me what I can or cannot do. In my RP (and I think I might RP the opening of it to the public) not only does it work & does not fall to the earth, it proves to be a major achievement for Slagkattunger transporting materials (and people) into and from space.

OOC: Thats just it. Not only do I not believe it will not work, but (as I have explained before), Wazzu doesn't think it will work. Wazzu thinks it is dangerous. Therefore, Wazzu is taking actions for IC reasons.

Orbit is not too late. Orbit with a string attached is "we break the string for you NOW." That is, while the string, as in your plan, is still thin and won't do any damage.

The asteroid won't deorbit on its own, it needs that string to do it.

So Wazzu will wait until it can't wait anymore.

Your basically threatening Wazzu, so Wazzu is getting ready to take action.

I keep trying to explain Wazzu's IC actions to you so you'll understand, I hope you understand this time.

ooc:- You do know there are (or in case of CC was) nations that already have Space Elevators? I just happen to post mine.

OOC: There have been others...I've ignored them after they did the same thing you are. But I'm not going to this time, the political situation is too interesting.

Of course, your welcome to ignore my "spacetech" nation, but you'll get it right back.

OOC: Hold on there. Let's try and figure out a reasonable approach here. Tone down those tempers a bit and let's explore what other options there are.

Frankly, having a giant asteroid that close to earth is a bit unsettling. I propose that if you want in on space so bad, we could sell you the design under a non-duplication clause for our E-M Peashooter. It's quite nice.

The asteroid is not a problem, perhaps if we installed emergency thrusters & a "break-away system" would that remove your fears?

The break-away system would mean explosive charges "cutting" the cable between the asteroid and base, then the thrusters would kick in and push the asteroid out of orbit. It wouldn't be very nice to those in the elevator at the time (We would have to develop a safety system) but then only the cable would fall down to NSearth. Further more a chain reaction of explosive detenations would cut the cable up into smaller pieces.

Of course this would only happen if something was to pull the asteroid out of orbit towards the NSEarth.

ooc:- I'm making the Elevator for the purpose of the game it will work, but I am willing to make alterations (if reasonable) to reduce the risk of damage to NSEarth & hence make nations happier (not totally happy but happier) about it. I'll compromise on the elevator a bit if you will do the same.

Thrusters and a breakaway system would reduce fears of an asteroid collision with Earth. Even an orbital boost rather then orbit breaking system would work. However, the system for the cord is unacceptable.

The carbon nanotube material you mention is not only remarkable for its great material strength, but for its resistance to heat. Breaking the cable into smaller peices would only pepper the Earth large meteor-like fragments, akin to a very massive ortillary strike. Such a strike would be largely random, with probibility dictating most peices falling on or around Slagkattunger, and several hundread to several thousand others falling over the rest of the world. The timing of these strikes would vary between immediate and over the next decade due to orbits and air friction.

The cable is very long though, and not all peices would fall into Earth's gravity. Many thousands of fragments would create a constant and messy navigational hazard to satelites, vessels, and space stations in various Earth orbits. These orbiting fragmets would be particularly hard to avoid as they would not follow normal satelite orbiting trajectories.

Not breaking the cable could be even worse, much like a large orbital whip decending on and around Earth.

Further emergency planning and designs are needed to fix this problem before Wazzu will consent to this.

-Wazzu Ministry of Diplomacy
-Wazzu Space Agency

Edit:- double post dammit.

"I feel that I should mention we will be converting the asteroid into a space station (ooc:- Zero-G is good for the heart) this won't change the weight of the asteriod too much but should prove to you and all others that we have no intention of letting it fall onto the NSEarth. We are pleased that you accept our proposal (ooc:- I suspect your nation wouldn't be totally happy with it but...) to reduce your fears in regards to the asteroid.

How about "cutting" the cable at a certain point & letting the asteroid pull a section of it with it as it engages it's thrusters, this would mean larger or more thrusters would be needed. But the length of the cable would be reduced thereby lessening the amount returning to NSEarth plus preventing a creation of a navigational hazard in space.

We understand that you are not happy with our building of the Space Elevator, as such we invite your nation to provide suggestions on how to handle the cable in the event of it being "cut loose" from the asteroid."

ooc:- If the new suggestion was done our tugs we are designing will move becons & mini thrusters down the cable to prevent it whiping around in space.

The risks in that are unacceptably high. A different proposal is needed.

Wazzu restates its willingness to help Slagkattunger build a rail, gaussian, or Ram accelerator. Any of the above will be both less costly and safer.

-Wazzu Ministry of Diplomacy
-Wazzu Space Agency

"Unfortunately we are commited to the project, as we suggested earlier pass on suggestions on making the cable safe should we need to disconnect it from the asteroid."

ooc:- It was already too late when you notice this thread, so all you can do now is suggest "improvements" on making the cable of the Elevator safe.

<TRANSMISSION Opens: Diplomatic Encryption>
<TO: SLAGKATTUNGER, Government>
<FROM: FSP, Commerce and Transportation Directorate, Military Directorate>
<RE: SPACE Elevator Project>

We have monitoring the conversation between yourself and the nation of Wazzu, and we share their fears.

And while we don't understand why you insist on a such a project at your relatively low tech level, we will assist you in making it safer. We respectfully request that you delay construction of the tether system itself until the asteroid modifications have been completed.

Seeing as how you won't be able to begin tether construction in ernest for another few months, until the asteroid itself arrives in orbit, (and we have yet to see how you plan to get it there) we request that you delay the construction until a plan can be formulated to deal with the danger of tether.

If you will a group of our scientists to study the plans you have developed, perhaps we can find a way of making you elevator safe an acceptable to all those concerned.

If not, we shall be forced to work with the Wazzu government to prevent deployment of such a dangerous device.

<TRANSMISSION Terminated>

I suggest using Anti-Grav rings, these rings will push away from each other while still being connected toghether with cables, this will mean it cna stand on its own. These rings can be used to propell the lift carriage up and down aswell, so you would be better off withthe carriage.

This way you will spend less on the carriage and less on the 'cable' itself, but it does cost quite a lot of power to keep the rings operational. But nothing more then running the engines of the carriage to lift it up via the cable.

ooc:- Um Sentient Peoples I've spent 30 NS years developing the tech for this..so it's not out of my reach. Next the Asteroid is already in orbit above my nation it was moved there by Resi Corporation under contract. Kiith Furio I'm not that advanced yet, my people know about other nations using it but we have yet to develop it (And I don't see us doing so any time soon).

Ic:- "The deployment of the teather cable has been put on hold until other nations concern over it's safety in an accident has been assured. Meanwhile the development of the Asteroid continues with extra shuttles taking parts to install a tempory orbit control thrusters, this will be replaced by stronger more permenent thusters once they are constructed. Thruster development is being done as fast as it can be without making sacrifices to their quality, it is expected that the finished sections of the thrusters will be ready for transport to the asteroid by this time next year (ooc:- tommorrow)."

The risks in that are unacceptably high. A different proposal is needed.

Wazzu restates its willingness to help Slagkattunger build a rail, gaussian, or Ram accelerator. Any of the above will be both less costly and safer.

-Wazzu Ministry of Diplomacy
-Wazzu Space Agency

"Unfortunately we are commited to the project, as we suggested earlier pass on suggestions on making the cable safe should we need to disconnect it from the asteroid."

ooc:- It was already too late when you notice this thread, so all you can do now is suggest "improvements" on making the cable of the Elevator safe.

OOC: So what are you telling me OOCly for then? That won't help your case any.

ooc:- Just reafirming what I'm doing...ppl keep saying do this other thing, but it's too late. What I'm asking you for is what you would do to make the cable safe when it is constructed, in a way to make your nation less unhappy with the idea.

<Mark>

OOC:
So the object starts pulling the cable backwards...to the West. Basically, it starts stealing kinetic energy from your counterweight, from your asteroid. If the cable breaks, you have a large, heavy cable falling hundreads or even thousands of miles down onto your nation (and many others). If it doesn't, then after X launches, it pulls the entire cable AND asteroid/counterweight back down on Earth.

And would that not be counteracted by objects coming down the elevator? You'd have to be carrying a really, really huge weight to bring it down in one go. And there's always the Solar-sail possibility... but then no one's even really sure that solar sails work.

The rest is history...as are any nations West of the cable and asteroid...and possibly elsewhere in the world if a tidal wave is caused by a cable several meters/yards thick and 22,000 kilometers long with an asteroid attached to the end.
Several meters thick is rather overkill. A few centimeters, at most, should do just fine.

Oh, and why does everyone want to use an asteroid? You shouldn't need such a huge counterweight as long as the CG of the cable is in GEO, yes? Use a light cable, and you can use a lieght counterweight.

OOC:
So the object starts pulling the cable backwards...to the West. Basically, it starts stealing kinetic energy from your counterweight, from your asteroid. If the cable breaks, you have a large, heavy cable falling hundreads or even thousands of miles down onto your nation (and many others). If it doesn't, then after X launches, it pulls the entire cable AND asteroid/counterweight back down on Earth.

And would that not be counteracted by objects coming down the elevator? You'd have to be carrying a really, really huge weight to bring it down in one go. And there's always the Solar-sail possibility... but then no one's even really sure that solar sails work.

OOC: The purpose of an elevator is to get mass up, not back down. It is easy to get mass back down, and most of it you don't really bother with.

Example: You put oxygen up for your space station...it eventually leaks out and returns to Earth on its own, not via the elevator.
E2: You put many satelites up. They eventually deorbit on their own.
E3: You bring equipment up to your space station, no reason to bring it down again. Keep it up there where it helps.

So no, you don't get it back. And even if you did, it wouldn't cover the problem of wind.

The rest is history...as are any nations West of the cable and asteroid...and possibly elsewhere in the world if a tidal wave is caused by a cable several meters/yards thick and 22,000 kilometers long with an asteroid attached to the end.
Several meters thick is rather overkill. A few centimeters, at most, should do just fine.

Oh, and why does everyone want to use an asteroid? You shouldn't need such a huge counterweight as long as the CG of the cable is in GEO, yes? Use a light cable, and you can use a lieght counterweight.[/quote]

Why an asteroid? Mining for one. For another, to get the CG of the cable in GEO, around 32,000km up, you need to extend it an extra 32,000km. Of course, that would only work with a taut line. Slagkattunger's line is not supposed to be taut (I think he said 100,000km...NOT TAUT). So it wouldn't work.

As for the mass/size of the cable, Slagkattunger is the one who said it would be thick (read the thread first!). I just commented on it.

Not that I agree a few centimeters would work if it was taut.


ooc:- Just reafirming what I'm doing...ppl keep saying do this other thing, but it's too late. What I'm asking you for is what you would do to make the cable safe when it is constructed, in a way to make your nation less unhappy with the idea.

OOC: I know what your doing, you don't seem to understand what I am doing.

Wazzu thinks this is extremely dangerous, so you need to convince Wazzu. Not me, Wazzu. Giving me arguements OOC won't change Wazzu's mind. Telling me your nation won't accept alternate plans (because it feels it has already spent too much money on a bad project, it has to force it to work by spending too much more) won't change Wazzu's mind, people in Wazzu can't hear your OOC arguements.

You need to make a convincing IC reason this elevator won't be a danger to Wazzu or its interests. Until that is done, Wazzu is prepared to take very convincing reasons to prevent that danger...preferably peaceful convincing reasons...preferably.

ooc:- Ok I see your point & will try to make a convicing Ic argument for Wazzu the nation.

The purpose of an elevator is to get mass up, not back down. It is easy to get mass back down, and most of it you don't really bother with.

Now I must point out an error in your thinking.....things will be comming down the elevator!, there will be tourist who visited the Asteroid space station to look down on the planet, experiance free fall or even catch a shuttle (or spaceship) and visit the stations of other nations (or even travel to Mars etc) returning home. There will be space factories building new materials and other items in free fall, these will travel back down to Slagkattunger. Small trade items from nations on other planets or moons of the NS Solar System, why have them enter the atmosphere & risk a potential disaster when they can travel down the elevator after passing customs.

OOC: The purpose of an elevator is to get mass up, not back down. It is easy to get mass back down, and most of it you don't really bother with.

Example: You put oxygen up for your space station...it eventually leaks out and returns to Earth on its own, not via the elevator.
E2: You put many satelites up. They eventually deorbit on their own.
E3: You bring equipment up to your space station, no reason to bring it down again. Keep it up there where it helps.

So no, you don't get it back. And even if you did, it wouldn't cover the problem of wind.

Ah, well, I do use my elevator to bring things down... Can't speak for anyone else, though.

Why an asteroid? Mining for one. For another, to get the CG of the cable in GEO, around 32,000km up, you need to extend it an extra 32,000km. Of course, that would only work with a taut line. Slagkattunger's line is not supposed to be taut (I think he said 100,000km...NOT TAUT). So it wouldn't work.

As for the mass/size of the cable, Slagkattunger is the one who said it would be thick (read the thread first!). I just commented on it.

Not that I agree a few centimeters would work if it was taut.

If the line is light, though, you shouldn't need something as large as an asteroid. And, yes, I know Slag was the one to mention the huge cable, I was just speaking in general. Why does Slag want a big thick cable? As for the thickness of the cable, the only serious proposition for a RL space elevator that I've seen would be based off the coast of Ecuador (I think it was Ecuador... maybe some other South American country), and would consist of a very thin, but wide, nanotube ribbon. As the ribbon/cable would be extremely lightweight, it was supposed to be held up by spent rocket boosters or something of that sort (I'm going to have to check their website again to be sure...). The car would have wheels to grip each side of the ribbon, and the underside would be coated with photoelectric cells to recieve power from a ground-based laser. I don't recall how they intended to deal with wind, (part of the reason for choosing that location was low winds and low incidence of storms) but I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest you could offset the problem somewhat with electrical propulsion, or maybe (really far-out idea coming up) fans on the car.

ooc:- this is how I see it there will be a up track on one side of the cable & a down track on the other side. Also the elevator draws its initial launch energy from an electrical-power station on the ground.

OOC: The point is, disgarding the wind, the mass comming down would have to exactly equal the mass going up. Since Earth is the source, FAR MORE mass would go up then down.

As for the length of the ribbion, that taut ribbon going to GEO would need to go twice as far, 64,000km rather then 32,000km (or so).

Fans would not help against the wind, and if you think of the atmosphere as extending 100-200km from the ground, there is a LOT of wind even on a narrow ribbon in a low wind area.

Lastly, the elevator should draw all its energy from the ground electrically...the idea is not to carry any fuel inside the elevator.

IC:

Considering Earth is primarially a source, not a destination for massive goods, and considering that it is actually safer to bring cargo and people down on a shuttle or ship rather then an elevator who's very nature is extremely dangerous, Wazzu does not accept this arguement.

-Wazzu Ministry of Diplomacy
-Wazzu Space Agency

Meh, a 300,000 mile long elevator? Not so bad....well if the asteroid is a bit further then that...300,000+ miles long? I mean jesus christ thats alot of metals...and if so in making it, how are you gonna send people through the elevator? If it takes a huge rocket to blast through the atmosphere at 7 miles per second, you need to spend lots of money just to go up and down the elevator...unless its a long trip, like 1 or 2 days going up/down.

Anyways my flying monkeys are willing to help around the elevator, they can reach the places you guys cant reach, tiny and high places...
"200,000 Flying Monkeys emigrate from Zarlo and imigrate into the asteroid as workers and citizens.

OOC: I always though decaying orbit wasn't proven...or are you talking about the asteroid?

OOC: I'll try and make it simple.

Take a peice of paper. Draw a small circle for Earth, and a larger circle around it representing geostationary orbit.

Put a dot on Earth's surface. Draw a line stright up to geostationary orbit and put another dot.

The top dot is the asteroid, the bottom dot is the elevator, and the line is your cable.

Now, the elevator, your bottom dot, is moving around the Earth at 464.5 meters per second. The asteroid, your top dot, is moving at 2,545 meters per second. Thats a difference of 2080.5 meters per second.

But your cable only lifts the elevator UP. If you were to put it in space and moving only at 464.5 meters per second, it would fall to Earth.

Since it is attached to the cable, the cable will pull it sideways (East)...and according to Newton's Laws, it will pull the cable in the opposite direction (West) with the same force.

Either the strain of pulling the elevator to the side is too much, and the cable breaks (in which case a lot of it falls to Earth), or the cable holds (in which case it brings the entire asteroid down to Earth).

The math is really really simple using either kinematics (as above) or energetics.

One point, your absolutely wrong moron. When something is caught into earth's orbit such as the moon, it equally follows the earths orbit which is supported by the north pole and south pole. The earth spins around 365/364 times in circle before having a full orbit around the sun. While it spins anything in the earths orbit goes with it because of the north pole.
The north and south pole are like magnets. One is negative and one is positive. When they are placed on equal sides and an object is placed in the "equator" then the orbit is the exact. However I should recall calling you a moron for that if its not perfectly lined within the equator it will fall out of orbit. I'd say attach it to the moon since its at the equator. In other words anything caught in the equator of the orbit (between the two poles) will orbit the earth 365 times. However it also spins, 365 times x=?. In other words the elevator is gonna be yanked off and be spun around the asteroid like a yoyo or...well I cant think of any other example.

OOC: The point is, disgarding the wind, the mass comming down would have to exactly equal the mass going up. Since Earth is the source, FAR MORE mass would go up then down.

As for the length of the ribbion, that taut ribbon going to GEO would need to go twice as far, 64,000km rather then 32,000km (or so).

Fans would not help against the wind, and if you think of the atmosphere as extending 100-200km from the ground, there is a LOT of wind even on a narrow ribbon in a low wind area.

Lastly, the elevator should draw all its energy from the ground electrically...the idea is not to carry any fuel inside the elevator.

IC:

Considering Earth is primarially a source, not a destination for massive goods, and considering that it is actually safer to bring cargo and people down on a shuttle or ship rather then an elevator who's very nature is extremely dangerous, Wazzu does not accept this arguement.

-Wazzu Ministry of Diplomacy
-Wazzu Space Agency

Another comment, there is no wind in space. The only thing that may screw it up is the fact that your connecting something with a gravity factor of 80 I think and a gravity factor of 5(outer space). In other words your elevator will crush, since elevators are hollow and such a change in gravity
(especially the atomosphere) will either crush it or blow it to pieces, or just make a big TIMBER!.
Bah science-fiction thingy.

ONE LAST THING, LEAVE SLAG ALONE ITS NATIONSTATES LET HIM DO WHAT HE CANTS DO IN REAL LIFE, like murder and walk away with it...

Philosopher Sarcov

ooc:- Um Zarlo please refrain form calling people names as it doesn't help your reputation. Secondly thanks for the offer of workers but um no thank you..it's a Slagkattungerian project & I'll keep most of the hostility directed towards me and not towards a young nation such as yourself.

ooc:- Um Zarlo please refrain form calling people names as it doesn't help your reputation. secondly thanks for the offer of woekers but um no thank you..it's a Slagkattungerian project & I'll keep most of the hostility directed towards me and not towards a young nation such as yourself.

Yes I recalled that though im too lazy too change it, my king must sleep soon and so should I

Zarlo's God (anonymous_

ooc:- Um Zarlo please refrain form calling people names as it doesn't help your reputation. Secondly thanks for the offer of workers but um no thank you..it's a Slagkattungerian project & I'll keep most of the hostility directed towards me and not towards a young nation such as yourself.

Thanks for acting like a true allie but I think this tiny nation can handle himself...he has flying monkeys...their like fruit bats but not bats, just monkeys.

Perhaps we could make an agreement for you to sell my wine on your elevator or stations?

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95474

OOC:

Umm, Zarlo, I'm not even going to try and correct you. Please go out and get an education.

Player of Slagkattunger, I don't have any hostilities towards you. Wazzu doesn't have any hostilities towards Slagkattunger. But I try and RP Wazzu atleast semi-realistically, so I try and get physics right. That said, Wazzu is really, truely worried that this project will end up in (likely unintentional) disaster. Wazzu is defensive, not aggressive.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95479

Thats the link to the Slagkattungerian Government response to nations requests (and hints of hostile actions)

What would happen if someone cut or flew into the cable?

What would happen if someone cut or flew into the cable?

Now how would they do that? Especially since we will be monitoring the orbits & surronding space for objects on course for the cable. Also at the moment no foreigners will be allowed near it (except Resi Corporation personnel) to be able to fool around with it.

ooc:- Also I have no intention in the foreseeable future of RPing such a thing.

[ooc- You'll find this article (http://www.sciencenews.org/20021005/bob9.asp) helpful if you want a real world reference point.]

I posted this on the first page, and it seems that bringing it up again would be handy, at least from an OOC stance.

Briefly, the article talks about how a space elevator is being done in the real world, and addresses many concerns that people seem to be having.

<bump>

OOC:- Found a site that answers a question you raised Wazzu, its http://www.isr.us/SEHome.asp in the FAQ part are the answers to your questions Which I'm transfering relevent parts here. Now I know my Elevator is a bit bigger but please assume the solution to the problem was found by Slagkattungerian Scientist after 30 + years of research & development.

****Security Communication Package****
Destination: - Wazzu & other World Leaders
Subject: - Slagkattunger Space Elevator Research on potential problems Raised by the nation of Wazzu.

Q: - What about conservation of angular momentum?

Wazzu Problem Raised: - When an elevator ascends the ribbon, it must be accelerated eastward because the Earth's rotation represents a larger eastward velocity the higher you go. The required eastward force on the ascending elevator would have to be provided by a corresponding westward force on the ribbon.

Slagkattunger Answer: - If you go through the math quantitatively, the angular momentum for the climbers requires a pound or so of force over the one-week travel time, and we do that easily with our many tons of material in the anchor and the counterweight.
The quantities really are tiny, but just to be complete, a climber going up pushes the entire elevator slightly to the east, causing it to lean. However, the ribbon recovers for the same reason that it stays up in the first place. Centripetal acceleration is acting on the upper two-thirds pulling it outward, and the lost angular momentum is replaced very quickly (essentially as fast as it is lost). The ribbon will never lose enough angular momentum to even deflect a single degree, let alone fall. The extra angular momentum is stolen from the Earth's rotation.

Q: - For the portion that doesn't burn up in a fall, what effect will it have on the environment?

Slagkattunger Answer: - Honestly, it will make a little bit of a mess. But New York City tickertape parades have made bigger messes. Comparatively it will put much less dust, dirt, debris and chemicals into the environment than wildfires of the American west, any one of the large expendable rockets, or a month of natural meteors hitting Earth. The ribbon is light (7.5 kg/km), so any pieces that fall to earth will slow down, in the air, to about the same terminal velocity as that of an open newspaper page falling. It will not have enough momentum to cause mechanical damage when it comes down. We have considered other health risks such as inhalation of very small fragments and believe this will not be a problem, but we are conducting studies to make sure this isn't a problem. Since we are aware of the possible problems now we can design the elevator to avoid these problems.

***End of Communication Package***


ooc:- Reposted from another thread, just to keep relevent info together.

ooc:- I have yet to Ignore someone and I won't start with Wazzu, its just poor form as I believe its is only useful when used for blatent & continuous poor RPing by someone.

***Private communication to Wazzu***

It seems that their was a misprint in the official release document on the space elevator. The cable is 36,000 km in length and not 144,000 km as printed therefore it's taut.

Also in regards to your concern over the cable, it depends where (in between regular maintance checks) the cable breaks. Lets say it breaks at the intersection of the atmosphere and space, long as this is..there are not NS nation within a 360 degree radius of Slagkattunger that will be in danger of having this collapse on them. The section in space will remain with the Asteroid, which if nesserary can engage it's emergancy thrusters to pull away from the planet.

Yes there may be some tidal waves as a result, but NS Earth suffers several tidal waves each decade resulting from earthquakes & other natural causes. Also it has been shown to our government that spaceships designed for warfare (such as your's) are quite capable to survive re-entry in a large enough fragment to cause similar havoc.

We hope this will help reduce your concerns over our Space Elevator, also the proof-reading department is now undergoing an internal investigation over their delay in informing us of the error.

***End Communication***

ooc:- After this no contact by Wazzu for several days I have decided to continue with the building of the tower.

Ic:- Many years behind schedual due to international concerns, today the asteroid and the tower have been linked in a lengthly operation. In a period of several years the tower will be completed & checked before finally being open for use. However the public will not be able to use it until the Asteroid space station is finished.

ooc:- Comming along quite nicely might be ready in 1 or 2 days

ooc:- Nearly finished construction.....still hasn't come down on the planet (the asteroid space station).

Wombat News Report (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2315127#2315127)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid87/pda22c0ab2140ceb42cbbf0f2271afd5b/fa9f249c.jpg

ooc:- Space Elevator is compleated................won't be open to the general public until the military has secured the orbital space around the asteroid & Elevator Cable. Also a military station being built to house military personnel & become the hub for the Slakgattungerian Star Service (S.S.S).

Please note that due to advances made possible by this project, it is now obsoleilte..further more we are now in our own star system.

http://www.users.on.net/killerkoala/skambass.JPG
Lady Jade Purrlinda
Ambassador to NS Earth
The Star Kingdom of Slagkattungerhttp://www.nationstates.net/images/un_member.gif
Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.
Email:- Slagkattunger@hotmail.com
My Nations GDP (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=Slagkattunger)
Slagkattunger Fact File (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110740)

interesting....all that money...wasted...

interesting....all that money...wasted...

Not really, if we didn't have the Space Elevator in the first place we wouldn't have been able to go into space at a low cost. Hence we wouldn't of been able to build colony ships to transport our population to the new star system. Also by reducing costs it allow more money to be spent on research in the research labs on the space station (thats the asteroid).

So by building it we allowed ourselves to expand pass the need for it........sort of like flying; it was a expensive hobbie until the wright brothers came up with the powered version, which led to space travel by rockets........