NationStates Jolt Archive

It's time for a good old-fashioned rant. Yes boys and girls, I've had it with some of the idiocy going on here, and this last bit with XAOSIS just takes it for me. Folks, it's time to start playing more responsibly. It's gone beyond lame.

Let me start with things like replying in threads to information you ic'ly wouldn't have. Is it just me, or do half the people on here think that just because you can access a thread all knowledge therein is there for your ic knowledge? HELL naw. Between that and the continual use of ooc knowledge for ic gain, frankly I'm surprised any decent rp goes on here at all. I'd link you to a prime example, but someone went back and deleted his post to cover his can. Doesn't change the fact that it was done, of course, except in his mind.

Now for the next point, oddly enough, related. The almighty 'Retcon'. Give me a break, people. As I recently said in a rather ticked tg, you can't just up and retcon something you and the rest of us have played for a good week or so. No way in hell. You take your actions, then deal with the consequences. It's as simple as that. Use your heads before you go haring off to drop bombs. Take into account that a lot of us rp such events into our own timelines etc for smooth transitions and the like, EVEN IF WE DON'T LIKE THE OUTCOME. *ahem* Bottom line on this one? Take yer lumps. Have some integrity and a backbone. Guess what - there will be times when your actions *gasp of shock* bring you negative results. It can't all be sunshine and roses all the time. Suck it up. There's a good many of us sick of trying to keep track of what has and hasn't happened because of all the stinkin' waffling that goes on.

Next point - don't even get me started on ubercharacters. No really. Don't. It's all been said before, and by folks far more eloquent than myself.

Now a public note on this whole 'Well, I talked to Melkor and ...' business. I don't buy it. Not for one minute. I find it awfully convenient that XAOSIS chose to announce this 'change of heart' and the supposed all this after he's gone and without access to defend himself on it, or give us his side. Last I heard from Tall Dark and Evil earlier, nothing had changed.

Bottom line? Denied. I'm certainly not retconning my actions on it, or other things anymore. As far as I'm concerned, things go down just as they do. Any of you folks thinking to go back and delete your posts, or go off on a belated 'oh whups, don't like how that goes down, think I'll decide differently' doesn't change a thing in my book, other than make you look bad.

Also as said previously tonight, you think before you act, and you accept the consequences of your actions. That's how this works. I know I'm not considered a big player, and a good lot of you probably won't give a damn what stance I take on it, but I hope at least some of this gets through and gets taken to heart regardless.

Seriously folks, if we're going to have any legitimacy to serious play here, this sort of thing has got to stop.

--Nathi's Player.
Arrogant, sarcastic, ornery old fart. Condescending? Well ...
"It isn't being condescending when you're simply better than them."
(sigline all delivered tongue firmly in cheek)

First of all, the wholre retconning thing was Siri's idea, and Melkor hasn't objected to it, either. He points out that there was no way i could rp a resistance movement in his country in the first place, so the post never should have flown to begin with.

Second, I don't see how I've derailed any major sl's by retconning. Melkor says he still would have posted a bounty and the cyber-hack on me anyway; so that isn't screwed up. The only thread that is wasted is your attempt to break up Xaosis and send Sehndem to the electric chair, Nathicania.

So are you ticked off because I made a correction and admitted to a flawed rp move, or do you have an axe to grind? Because it sounds to me that you don't want Xaosis anywhere near you. I have no problem with that; that's your problem, not mine. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna let this vendetta get in the way of what I've been advised to do by more then one moderator.

I'm frustrated that people screamed at me for making that post, saying "you can't rp that! you can't rp Melkorian citizens!" so I says, "fine, i take it back, happy?" Now Nathicania is saying I had no right to do that??? Make up your minds people!!!

Again, talk to Siri, Nathicania. I had no problem with you and I'm perplexed that you want to get rid of Xaosis. Crap, I might just oblige anyway; this thing is so disastrous I'm not sure it's worth the trouble anymore.

<snip>
Amen!

~Rep's Player

I would have to agree with Dread Lady Nathicana on this

Now I will be the first to admit that the I have in the past I'v been guilty of using IC threads, that in no way I should have I known about to my advange in other thread. As well as doing things that where now looking back on it immpossible in the IC world. my reason I was rather new to the whole RP thing. But I was lucky in that someone would did was kind enough to point it out, and overlook it so that we could continue on with the RP. I've taken that experience and built on to in an attempt to become a better RP'er. And I'll wil adimit that I'm still learning but I'm trying. We need the big players to look out and teach the newer how to play this came. As for the more experience player we should al know better.

As for the individual that I mentioned eairlier I would just like to say thank for trying to show me the way :D. you know how you are

Yeah, I went through extraordinary lengths to keep my ResiCorp backstab an OOC secret because I knew that there would be at least somebody who would use their OOC knowledge of pending betrayal to make their characters suddenly suspect or otherwise prevent the attack. You can't trust anyone, especially the General Public.

And here I did all that and it'll probably get retconned or ignored or something anyway. Bah. (Hope not though..)

Invitational RP's are a bit different though. And usually better.

It ain't personal, XAO, it's the principle. And frankly, Siri's another one who's used the retcon to haul her ass out of trouble, so don't think to throw that name around with me and gain respect.

I use you as an example because you're the latest in a string of things. And frankly, you've no idea the things that go on behind the scenes, so don't think to assume that one post is all that's affected.

Second, I see you don't choose to address the fact that Melkor isn't around to verify any of this. Until I hear otherwise, I stand by my remarks.

Your actions provided me with a grand opportunity to rp certain aspects of my nation and its leadership, so yes, it's frustrating. I'm quite certain I'm not the only one frustrated by your actions, and the actions of others that continue to play this way. Sorry you make yourself such a whopping big target, but hey - you play, you pay.

--Nathi's Player

Allright.

I give. Do what you want with me. I don't want to fight this. I've made a mistake, so whatever I do I'm going to loose. I'm already considered a loose cannon so I'm just gonna fold.

I don't know what else to do, really. In fact, I'm tempted to just have Xaosis admitt to illegal terrorism and let it get destroyed. I've already been defeated.

Bravo Nathanica!

That's why we're all playing...to see what happens. And it's right to point out the truth about consequences!

Bad reps, bad results, they all stem from a player's actions (and is a major part of why we RP!).

If someone want to have no connection to the results of his actions then she shouldn't bother RPing--there's no point to that.

Okay, with the uber-characters thing...

I don't like wars containing threads of "The 1st through 10th fleets sail into your country. My tremendous air wing launches three thousand bombers. My 17 armored divisions plow into your country from the north." It's so impersonal and blah. I prefer to focus the action down to a squad or individual level, to make the story more deep. However, this often leads to characters that have higher abilities than expected, to keep the story running (and cause it's hard to kill a character you've built up for ten posts; but when you do, it's gotta be cool).

I'm still pretty new... so, any comments or recommendations?

ooc:- Ok I'm now officially stupid...what does Retcon mean? I get a hint from what you wrote but I'm not totally sure what it is.

Uh... I feel slightly silly for asking... what in the hell is Retcon?

EDIT: Well... at least I'm not alone...

Retcon- Basically to take back or change events that have already been posted. Not sure where the term came from, but that's what it means.

Retcon- Basically to take back or change events that have already been posted. Not sure where the term came from, but that's what it means.Ah, in other words: Weasling out of a war or nuking or something by changing the multiverse to suit your needs.

Sounds like only a God could do that... and that leads to another word I think we all know, but that's just my opinion.

Okay, with the uber-characters thing...

I don't like wars containing threads of "The 1st through 10th fleets sail into your country. My tremendous air wing launches three thousand bombers. My 17 armored divisions plow into your country from the north." It's so impersonal and blah. I prefer to focus the action down to a squad or individual level, to make the story more deep. However, this often leads to characters that have higher abilities than expected, to keep the story running (and cause it's hard to kill a character you've built up for ten posts; but when you do, it's gotta be cool).

I'm still pretty new... so, any comments or recommendations?

I hear ya. Naturally, any character worth writing about will have strengths, probably above and beyond the abilities of the average person. The important thing is to balance them with weaknesses, and remember that no matter how good your character is, they can still be outsmarted, they can still be surprised, and there will still be things they aren't prepared for.

Way OT,
Okay, with the uber-characters thing...

I don't like wars containing threads of "The 1st through 10th fleets sail into your country. My tremendous air wing launches three thousand bombers. My 17 armored divisions plow into your country from the north." It's so impersonal and blah. I prefer to focus the action down to a squad or individual level, to make the story more deep. However, this often leads to characters that have higher abilities than expected, to keep the story running (and cause it's hard to kill a character you've built up for ten posts; but when you do, it's gotta be cool).

I'm still pretty new... so, any comments or recommendations?

You should talk to Sniper Country. He likes to focus on small-unit tactics (as I do, when the opportunity permits) and, while he only sometimes names the characters, it definitely adds another dimension to the RP.

The biggest problem that I've found is that players who don't understand/like/care for small-unit tactics will still play their units the same (ie, sending an entire armored brigade after a 6-man LRRP team, in about as many words) and their rate of RP doesn't respect the presence of the smaller RP elements (leaving the unit in the dust as the rest of the war wraps up mid-way through the RP of the team's mission). The length of a good, small-unit RP means that players have to wait until its done to move on elsewhere...and some people just don't like that fact.

SC and I (with some others) had a great time with a semi-Serious (joke) RP about drunken and stoned SOF units running around in SC's main city, wrecking havoc...but it's one of the more interesting RP's I've had.

SC will help you if you need any advice...I'm also available for any questions (and would be happy to participate in a small-unit based RP, though my development of individual characters is lacking at times).

Thanks. I think I will. By the way, with the SOF in the city, I sure hope PCP didn't get involved. That would have been just plain psychotic. If you see any good ones, try to let me know so I can learn (by play or just observation) how to better my style. Thanks again.

(And yeah, I got the brigade treatment in a past RP. A sniper of mine crept through the lines to knock off a general on a front-line visit. BOOM. Got hit with the whole 3rd Army, plus air friggin' support... before he fired.)

Okay, with the uber-characters thing...

I don't like wars containing threads of "The 1st through 10th fleets sail into your country. My tremendous air wing launches three thousand bombers. My 17 armored divisions plow into your country from the north." It's so impersonal and blah. I prefer to focus the action down to a squad or individual level, to make the story more deep. However, this often leads to characters that have higher abilities than expected, to keep the story running (and cause it's hard to kill a character you've built up for ten posts; but when you do, it's gotta be cool).

I'm still pretty new... so, any comments or recommendations?

Yeah, I don't like that style war RPing. I prefer propaganda such as news broadcasts and such. I don't think there is any way to avoid uber-charactering though in those situations. It's still better that just "10,000 T-90s cross the border"

Thanks. I think I will. By the way, with the SOF in the city, I sure hope PCP didn't get involved. That would have been just plain psychotic. If you see any good ones, try to let me know so I can learn (by play or just observation) how to better my style. Thanks again.

(And yeah, I got the brigade treatment in a past RP. A sniper of mine crept through the lines to knock off a general on a front-line visit. BOOM. Got hit with the whole 3rd Army, plus air friggin' support... before he fired.)

OT (last time),
Haha, that sounds about like the normal response!

No...no PCP, but plenty of HE (RPGs, GMGs, grenades)...we leveled an apartment building, a military barracks, and a 7-11 (along with ripping up a good long stretch of road).

Especially in small country wars. All of a sudden, it turns out someone's a puppet or an ally of a powerbroker, and here comes the entire US/Russian/Chinese/StarWars/Warhammer40k/other-random-1337-army to mercilessly slaughter the other country.

OH GOD! I'M THREAD-JACKING! SORRY! STOPPING NOW! :oops:

The Shentavo nations have a good thing going. The Shentavo Academy allowed my to develop several characters. Now I still do the big war '82 ships start firing at your fleet' but.... this is how I do it:

Admiral: "Prepare to open fire." He contacts them again. "This is your last warning."

[Enemy usually starts shooting at this point.]

The Admiral turns to the commander. "Not chatty, are they?" He smiles for a second. "Return fire and begin evasive course."

The fleet begins to open fire as they move to avoid the incoming attacks.

[Losses posted here]

EVERY good movie just doesn't have fleets or armies going this way or that way and attacking and flanking. PEOPLE make decisions to do those things. RP it out and you get a much more enjoyable read.

Sounds like another pissed off player. Nice to know I'm not the only one who gets steamed every once in a while.

(along with ripping up a good long stretch of road).

Was that when my troops tried to dig trenches in the street, or a separate incident?

At any rate, we also liberated a gay bar.

Oh man. I guess everyone's now thread-jacking, so I'll continue to waylay this thread.

I wish I could have seen that thread. What's it called (if it's still around)?

I agree with this whole anti-retcon thing. I've been lucky; Scolopendra's internal plotline has been rather straightforward... but there's been a lot of stuff happening and its becoming extremely difficult to maintain continuity.

Hell, not just that... it's becoming extremely difficult to know what the smeg is going on at any given time. Or taking anything seriously. The whole Sketch melodrama? Ever since the pseudoretcon of the Melkor thing, I couldn't take it seriously, especially with all the whining going on on both sides. No one was having any fun and thus someone would call for a retcon. Instead, it turned out to be a "I'm taking my ball and going home" followed by an "it's on" and a sudden lack of interest.

Geez, people, screwing with time is a very, very serious thing... I agree with Nathi on the idea that it should follow the "pop-off rule." Sorry to use a cadet analogy, but it's appropriate.

Say I'm in formation and there's an inspection; the inspecting officer notices that my shoes are a little less than shiney and asks if I've shined them recently. Now, I know I haven't, but I'm tense and so respond with the expected "Yes, sir" without really thinking. That's a pop-off, it's not a lie somuch as an ingrained response, so I can then say "Actually, sir, no I didn't," without being called a liar.

I think RP should be the same way. Anyone remember the Panzer General turn-based strategy games? You could take back your moves if they weren't right, but not after you started fighting or took damage. RP retcons should be the same way: oops, I made a mistake, let me take that back BEFORE I know what the consequences of my actions are. If one does it after, then it just looks cheap (even if it isn't).

Back to the "pop-off" analogy: If I don't say "Actually..." immediately, then it isn't a pop-off anymore. I've had time to think about it, realize that I've said the wrong thing, and decided to leave it that way. It goes from being a programmed response to a lie, and that's unacceptable.

Same thing with retcons...

(along with ripping up a good long stretch of road).

Was that when my troops tried to dig trenches in the street, or a separate incident?

At any rate, we also liberated a gay bar.

OOC: Well, when they tried to dig in the street using trench-shovels....the GMG fire drove the 9,998 of the 10,000 that survived into the bar.

Kauk, I'll look for it and post the link into this post.

Boo-yah, War is Scary as Hell (Semi-Serious RP) (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32052&highlight=)

*Goes off to re-read thread*

I haven't retconned anything...........everything that happened has happened. Once some things get sorted out, the thread will proceed. Thats it for my defense, guilty as charged I suppose.

And wow, a ROTC example. I thought I had to live/breath/eat/sleep/shit ROTC :wink:

That thread... pure hilarity!

Nathi is right. If you've played tabletop, how many times has the GM given you the chance to rewind time, then do it again? Never.

Ok - once. In all my years of tabletop - once has the GM gone back and re-done things. And it totally ruined the game.

Now if you do something because you didn't read closely enough (IE there are no forces there to attack, or no character to interact with) fine. Admit guilt (which is good to do - makes you a stronger person, and people will respect someone who admits their mistakes) and edit.

So in closing - Retcon's are bad, m'kay?

Retcon- Basically to take back or change events that have already been posted. Not sure where the term came from, but that's what it means.

The term came from RETroactive CONtinuity. In other words, in its original incarnation, a retcon was saying in the present that something had happened in the past, when that previous occurrence was not actually a part of continuity. So if someone were to attack me, and I were to respond by unveiling a Super-Mega-Defense Cannon that had never been mentioned before, that's a retcon in the original sense.

It's evolved to mean any change to previously-established continuity. Saying something did happen when it wasn't referred to earlier, saying something never happened when it was, saying something happened differently than it had previously been portrayed... you name it.

Not all retcons are bad. A "flashback" is a kind of retcon, and it can be very effective as a dramatic device. And, when used very sparingly, the "what you thought you knew was wrong" trick can be just as much fun. But it's very easy for a retcon to pull a solution out of nowhere, and that's bad. Real bad.

<Nathi's monologue>

*Standing ovation*

~Vortex' player

I agree with Nathi. Sadly. :/

Then again I'm jaded, cynical, confrontational and downright bitter. Ultimately, you shouldn't ever be in a position to need to retcon something more than ... like ... a day old. Ever, really, but for misunderstandings etc occasionally the odd post edit might need to be made.

And uberpowerful invincible forces can suck it.

Spec-ops RPs are soooo the way to go. Character RPs can be good but no-one's ever prepared to die.

Oh ... and anyone remember the admonition in pretty much every RP rules book, be it tabletop or live action or whatever?

Role playing games are not about winning.

Having an invincible leader with an invincible army in Nationstates in no way will make your penis grow longer.

OOC:

Nathicana, I agree with what you say. I do believe that some slight modifications can be, well, redone in case there was some miscommunication evident and if both sides are willing to work if out - even if it means bringing in a neutral third party (I'm refering here to where Iesus and I had a dispute about my planes. Hopefully, it's all okay). Otherwise, you are spot on.

edit: Ah...looks like Whispering Voices already mentioned the miscommunication part. I second it then. 8)

-- Vrak's player

Nice post Nathi. You already know I'll agree :P

An explanation of my intereptation of what Nathi meant about the uber chars.

Basically people on NS take the idea of having their characters be perfect at everything they do. IE Magical, Smart, Sexy, Strong, Well liked, Can never say wrong. Shine gold out their backsides. YAdda Yadda Yadda. Some people even take those ideas and then cry when their char is attacked for someone elses interpretation of said abilities and reacts with hostility to the player.

All the uber powerful godlike chars have been done. Were are the normal, plain unliked people?! Bring back the great speakers! We want more pacifists! Enough of the perfect killing machine warriors the tactical geniuses and the brilliant speakers! Give us mediocre and poor class people! Give us more truly basic and scary ruthlessness!

The reason I refuse to play magical characters is because and I'm sorry to use it a char that is being written about in a RP story has found no limits to his powers. Basicaly he is unstoppable, a god......yeah...RIGHT any time you try something he'll simply shrug and say NO I AM A GOD THAT WONT HURT and walk away.... BORING.

But other than that....nice rant nathi hope people buck up to it ;)

~Iraqstan's zany and definately no nazi player.

PS: I in no way mean to imply your char is disliked nathi :P

Whipser is right, putting a modecium of thought behind your actions should put you beyond the need for a retcon. And, if you happen to screw up and you end up getting ganked, tough it out. It just a game.

And soopadoopa characters are just plain silly. Sure, having them be able to do really neat thing is cool, but everything is mortal, to one extent or another. I'll admit to having a character who can tear a tank apart with her bare hands. But she can't dodge bullets. :)

This has been a OOC message brought to you by the NationStates Players Association.

I do character RPs all the time. But it's been awhile since I axed one of my main charas in an RP. *Sighs.* Back in the day I used to make charas, build them up, maybe have one of the other player's charas fall in love, and then viciously axe them off. To quote skull_valkyrie from AN.

Corinna is an evil goddess. She creates her girls, and then kills them off herself.

I've never Retcon, not ever once in my RP career. Not only is it just bad form, it's just plain inconsiderate.

Having an invincible leader with an invincible army in Nationstates in no way will make your penis grow longer.

OOC:
:shock:

*Goes off to find another explanation, then*

IC:

Anyway, retconning is okay as long as ALL players involved agree upon it, I guess. Better that history is rewritten with a good rp, then that everybody is stuck with a really bad story to respond to.

Of course, retconning without consulting others involved is just bad.

Perhaps, but as I said earlier, and as others have said - within a reasonably short amount of time. Miscommunications, poor responses, etc while in game is quite a bit different from playing something out, having people react to it, then withdrawing it entirely. Usually, those sorts of things are discussed then changed appropriately - we've all seen it. That sort of thing I don't have so much a problem with. Things happen, stuff gets missed, folks try to work it out. Communication is a GOOD thing. Not arguing that.

At any rate, some clarification there. Those painfully belated retcons are simply unacceptable.

Had a thought though, for the whole 'uber, unstoppable, unkillable' bit ... I recall mention of Nathicana being mentioned as such. Just want to point out, s' not the case. The difference there is, no one ever calls her on things. Nobody. Literally gets away with murder and why? Everyone lets her. I carried out one of my most ruthless actions with that nation, and I gained allies from it. Explain that one to me.

Anyways ... yeah. And Whisper - honestly. *chuckles* As far as that analogy goes, neither is your Econ, Military Might, Stats, Character, Spacedy Ships, Uberwankedy Gadgets, or even Mad Diplomatic Skilz an extension of such. Not to be sexist but I swear sometimes I feel about to reel from the testosterone levels 'round here - and that goes for you women players who act like that too. Honestly now. *pulls a face* It gets silly after a while.

--Nathi's Player, obviously in need of morning caffiene

OOC: Ah...caffeine. Is there anything it can't do?

heh ... yes, but if I explain it all, I get banned. *impish grin*

Anyways ... yeah. And Whisper - honestly. *chuckles* As far as that analogy goes, neither is your Econ, Military Might, Stats, Character, Spacedy Ships, Uberwankedy Gadgets, or even Mad Diplomatic Skilz an extension of such.

That's the point ^_^ However, interestingly, spacedywanking does result in an ingrowing penis. FTL results in your penis disappearing into L-space, and becoming infinitely long so it curves round in spacetime and impales your skull!

Anyways ... yeah. And Whisper - honestly. *chuckles* As far as that analogy goes, neither is your Econ, Military Might, Stats, Character, Spacedy Ships, Uberwankedy Gadgets, or even Mad Diplomatic Skilz an extension of such.

That's the point ^_^ However, interestingly, spacedywanking does result in an ingrowing penis. FTL results in your penis disappearing into L-space, and becoming infinitely long so it curves round in spacetime and impales your skull!

OMG LOL!!!!! I almost fell out of my chair! Too much.

Sketch, a thought. If you've so much time to peruse the forums, and post here there and everywhere, I'd think you'd have at least a little time to devote to the war thread. Truly, not making any points here, boy. /self hijack.

Heh. My previous nation, Daezeman, was completely annhilated by Imitoran fire.

How I would have LOVED to have backed up and restarted that.

But, I didn't. I couldn't have.

--- Marche Island's Player

TG Nathi, explaining myself.

yes, well ... whatevah. (snarky bump)

The Empire of Treznor respects the right of any nation to retcon any and all events that they participate in.

The Empire of Treznor also reserves the right to curse, badmouth, lobby and otherwise blacklist any nation that retcons one of his RPs.

We have IGNORE cannons. Don't make us use them.

**************************
http://www.pwfc.org/images/gallery/smtorso3.jpg
Emperor Devon I
Empire of Treznor
**************************

Heh. My previous nation, Daezeman, was completely annhilated by Imitoran fire.

How I would have LOVED to have backed up and restarted that.

But, I didn't. I couldn't have.

--- Marche Island's Player

Actually, I really only bombed the shit out of your military bases and capital city, and left the rest alone. Your the one that had everyone commit suicide. And hey, you took out one of my Hammies. Those cost about 3 bil a piece. I ougtha charge your new nation for it.