NationStates Jolt Archive

...from my RP paradigm.

A lot of you are already aware of my stance on the way arms sales are conducted on this site. I know that not all facets of nation-ruling or what have-you can be represented accurately in a game like this, but the way most of you sell weapons to each other is nothing short of ridiculous. I've seen storefront threads with capital class spacecraft, for crying out loud! And the people who buy them simply say " I want x, $y wired."

A transaction like that should be RPed, never glossed over. Why? Because a capital ship is a big goddamn deal. A dreadnought like some of the one's Ive been seeing would take years to build, and even then you could probably do one [maybe two] at a time. Do a lot of people really have 10 Dreadnoughts just lying around? Even if you do, does the second nation have enough money to buy it up front without bankrupting themselves?.

The answer to both of these questions, as I tend to see it, is invariably "no." For this reason, I have chosen to ignore people that do this as a force of habit, unless I've RPed with you in the past. The reason for this is it ultimately destroys what so many of us have tried to attain in the game [myself being one of them] by allowing younger nations to acheive parity with established world powers in a matter of weeks, with imaginary money.

I agree. Yep, that's all I have to say. Heh. But yes, I would like to see more RPed purchases.

And its taken this long for someone to get outraged why............? Just pointing out the fact that no one listens until someone "important" takes notice. See Menelmacar's thread of gravtech proliferation, same basic problem being addressed.

More on topic: Hear, hear! About time someone said something.

Well, I used to be the way of "I want x battlecruisers, whatever money wired!1111", but I'd have to agree, selling stuff here could be more "in-depth"...

And of course, many people forgot about the shipping time of the stuff imported. I've seen many people just saying "order confirmed, have a nice day". So I began implementing a shipping time policy.

Overall, I've seen some arms sales here are still well RPed, but some... just "I want 20 carriers, money wired, confirmed."

Since I only sell uranium to extract from the mountains, I'm taking this will have little effect on me.

Am I right?

Well, I used to be the way of "I want x battlecruisers, whatever money wired!1111", but I'd have to agree, selling stuff here could be more "in-depth"...

And of course, many people forgot about the shipping time of the stuff imported. I've seen many people just saying "order confirmed, have a nice day". So I began implementing a sipping time policy.

Overall, I've seen some arms sales here are still well RPed, but some... just "I want 20 carriers, money wired, confirmed."

Yeah, thats what I'm talking about. People make the money appear from nowhere, then the carriers or whatnot just appear in the buyer's country in a matter of days, if that. I mean, it might be feasible if both parties acknowledged the massive economic downturn and enormous deficit that would be run up from buying, say, ten carriers in ONE DAY. Let alone the astronomical cost of hired labor to build the buggers in the first place, and the upkeep costs of having them lying around before people buy them up.

Its like theyre literally whipping Nimitz class carriers out of their back pocket and saying "phew. thought it got lost in the wallet."

OOC: I've tried RPing sales, and since i've sold squat. Mostly because most folks these days are an unimaginative bunch of lazy humps. I've never tried selling capitol craft, because frankly, I don't have a surplus of them at all. My old fighters i've tried selling, and got nada.

Amen!

Yeah, thats what I'm talking about. People make the money appear from nowhere, then the carriers or whatnot just appear in the buyer's country in a matter of days, if that. I mean, it might be feasible if both parties acknowledged the massive economic downturn and enormous deficit that would be run up from buying, say, ten carriers in ONE DAY. Let alone the astronomical cost of hired labor to build the buggers in the first place, and the upkeep costs of having them lying around before people buy them up.

I'd recall that most people here who RPs the arrival time, only acts as if they are already in storage, and are available for purchase. People seems to forgot that just building one super-carrier like Nimitz Class takes years to complete.

However, I've seen many realistic timing these past 1-2 months. Still, too few people RP the time.

About the cost, yes, that is also a huge problem here. For some reason, people think that if they sold 3 5-billion-dollars supercarrier, they earn 15 billion. They don't know what are the material cost, equipment cost, and labor cost. They just assume that they earned 15 nice, clean billion. I've seen people whop has only 10 trillion of budget shelling out trillions of dollars as if they are just a few million on 398382492 spacecrafts.

I know most of this occured during RPs, but when I signed up to do the Space Above & Beyond tech with Sambizie, especially the carriers, I laid out a schedule. Such that customers had to wait three (RL) days for completion, that I could build only four ships at a time (four yards).

I think I've done the uber "build everything", but I do note that sometimes, the order needs to be fulfilled late due to labor or materials shortages or something.

I do try. Those of you I RP with know I cut down to make it realistic and I DO, whenever I design tech, note the flaws in each and every design I make.

That's why I just sell swords...

good thing i only sell tact nukes.

Hmmm....I like this. I shall start. I just started selling a new weapons system for a.....substantial amount of money. *cough1.5bilcough* and could use this to only allow people serious enough to trade RP about it to go through.

I had customers backed up for several days when demand exceeded our production capacity for our new rifle. We aren*t even near ready to produce capital ships. We promise to be careful when and if we ever do...

I suppose one could just do what I do, and not buy from or sell to other nations at all.

good thing i only sell tact nukes.

I seem to recall that you sell 10,000 tactical nukes just as if they can be manufactured in 1 day.

Correct?

Also, a pet peeve of mine:

Production Rights

I've seen many businesses here sell production rights of their products as if they are selling lemonade. What I don't get is: why do they sell them to people who they don't even know?

Let's take RL examples. Soviet Union granting China the right to produce MiG-19s. Why? Because Soviet Union trusts China. They trust China that China would put it into good use.

However, I don't see the trust here.

Also, on a different aspect, I just see people doing this:

"I need the production right for this tank!!! money wired!!"

"confirmed"

What I found it weird is, how they also just say "confirmed". A nation couldn't manufacture the tank without the helping of the nation who made the tank. Very few people RP this production rights selling with "sending experts to guide the production of [x] and to set up a production plant for [x] product", plus "sending spare parts and a prototype of [x]." I've just see people do this: "1 hugeass mail is sent!!111".

This also brings a good issue also about arms sale. I've just seen people doing this:

"I need 1000 F-16s"

"confirmed."

RL example. USA sells F-16s to various nations. They don't just send the aircraft. They always send documentations, spare parts, and most importantly, armaments to go with it.

However, I've just seen people sending the bare product.

10 thousand??? no way. most ive ever sold was 500 suitcase and 500 dirtybombs at once.

That happened with one of my first rifle sales. A player I won*t name bought a bunch of rifles using propritary ammo, but no ammmo. I offered to sell it, but he didn*t buy. several 100 clubs...

This is why I don't sell ships, it's too symbolic all around of your empire. You buy one and put yourself in debt, you spend massive ammounts of money maintaining it, and then you attack and lose it, symbolising the downfall of your nation.

Of course, if you have more than one it's a different story, but most nations can probably only afford one.

Well said, Melk. I agree all the way.

Well said, Melk. I agree all the way.

Yay!

seling capital ships or production rights willy-nilly is just stupid, I agree...

[I hate making 'me too' posts, but I have to voice my assent]

seling capital ships or production rights willy-nilly is just stupid, I agree...

[I hate making 'me too' posts, but I have to voice my assent]

My point is not that granting production rights is not realistic. My point was that granting production rights for stuff here would need to be RPed in depth much more.

Would a nation sale be considered a large sale? :wink:

Actually, I've decided to never do those again based on four factors, how much people hate me when I do them (Siri still holds a grudge), how low the supply is right now, how low the demand is right now, and the fact that it was probably bad RPing to sell nations anyway...

Very good points made. S'why I make people wait when they buy stuff, and I don't sell sensitive stuff. The Bandit or the Harukaze? S'not sensitive, so yaaay, goods to sell. The Elite Victory or the Archangel class carrier? No sale, that's sensitive military secret stuff there!

OOC: Wholeheartedly agreed with you, Melkor.

In the very beginning, I was buying equipment then realized, "Wait a minute, I can domestically make this stuff. Why am I buying this for? As well, buying equipment, especially stuff that may be more advanced than your nation opens yourself up to some vulnerabilities. That is, what measures have been taken to ensure that repairs and spare parts can be manufactured by your own companies? Do you have the production base to ensure that the equipment can be maintained? Whatever production rights I've purchased are from trusted people (or at least those I have built up a relationship with :wink: ) and I've been turned down before.

I haven't yet made a weapons store front (not saying "ya me" but I just can't understand why NS would need yet another "I'm selling tanks and guns" thread) and the only times I've sold guns was to get rid of a surplus. Well, I did sell 5 Soyuz III ships once. Ah well...no one's perfect. :)

I'm sure some of you will say, "Well, why do I have to roleplay a simple arms deal?" Well, I really suppose you don't. After all, I don't necessarily roleplay my regular trading ships leaving port loaded with Walrus Fizz cola either. But selling a battleship does tend to attract attention and maybe that's the whole point of Melkor's complaint. I mean, if someone was selling a big-ass spaceship don't you think that some other interested parties might try to wreck the deal? Think of when China tried to acquire a Russian aircraft carrier. Luckily it's a floating casino now.

Speaking of casinos, whatever happened to Angelus's decommissioned ship?

It's a casino.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

aka Shodey

seling capital ships or production rights willy-nilly is just stupid, I agree...

[I hate making 'me too' posts, but I have to voice my assent]

My point is not that granting production rights is not realistic. My point was that granting production rights for stuff here would need to be RPed in depth much more.

OOC: Okay, I see what you mean here. The easy way is to assume all that stuff is included. The other way is for both sides to draw up long, boring contracts. There must be a middle ground. When I sold a limited TDP license to Oglethorpia, I just made a brief, eight-point contract. That's it. We were both happy with it.

It's a casino.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

aka Shodey

OOC: Ah right. I remember now. Three things happen to you when you get old; the memory fades, the body sags, and I can't remember the third one.

I agree. I once maintained a storefront, then realized how silly the idea was. It doesn't really simulate anything- except a storefront! And, nations just don't have storefronts. Partiuclarly not for large amounts of powerful weaponry.

I tend now to just assume that I have a large and healthy military trade thing going on, and not RP every little aspect. Its mainly the big deals, and they get their own threads. Like the Angelus land-for-high-tech deal.

The problem is we're all used to consumerism, so its hard to realize that a big military trade deal would take the form of a diplomatic meeting or letter opening, and then a contract to be executed over, say, 20 years, with specific terms.

It's a casino.

--Hearty Aerospacewanker Pirate Cap'n Scolo

aka Shodey

Damn straight it's a casino. And one that's raking it in from here to dooms-day! And I own a whole wad of stock in it! Mwah ha ha ha moneymoneymoney etc.....

*rolls in a heat-chamber full of stock*

CEO Kargaah

10 thousand??? no way. most ive ever sold was 500 suitcase and 500 dirtybombs at once. I seem to remember something about you and calculating your total mass of nukes to somewhere larger than the planet earth.

Another thing wrong with storefronts:
"OMG I have a super carrier and it contains all my super secret technology. Who wants to buy it."

Countries just don't give away valuable technology like that.

Agreed. With my Nightingale battlecarriers for example which are even larger than the Nimitz class, take 4 to 5 years atleast in NS time to complete. Its sometimes difficult to try and determine accurate delivery times. For small arms, BDU's, vechiles etc. its especially difficult when you will propably have a lot of factories that can easilly be modified to construct those things. With large naval vessels its much easier and the same thing with aircraft.

RPing the time between the purchase and delivery however is something that IMHO is not 100% necessary. If there are several large orders being processed at the same time its hard to remember all of them and another matter is that your country is building that kind of stuff all the time. More depth to the sales threads however would be welcome. As in asking for locations for the equipment to be delivered, payment options etc.

Berserker: Good point about the technology. I've had the carriers i use for 60 years in NS time now and only very recently i began to think about putting them for export. If you have some piece of technological wonder that you have used billions on, you shouldnt be so eager to give it away.

I'm inclined to agree with all of this... but I need to think up a way of turning this into more than a 'me too' post.

How many people buy maintenance contracts with the stuff? I bought a dozen Djinni UCAVs for an aerial display team and negocitated spares purchase and delivery with the maker (Austrin-Ontis) over Telegram. Admittedly I shamelessly revers-engineered the tech and used it as the basis for my own 'Archon' UCAVs, but never mind. I mean, you may get the equipment, but you need to replace worn parts and have the experties to put it together properly.

I considered doing a 'tender for contract' thread... basicly writing the specs and then asking people to put forward solutions... narrow it down, RP trials performance, etc. But I know just how hellish the process is IRL (at least here in the UK), so I chickened out ;)

As for technology... no way am I sharing my latest-gen tech with anybody. I may let my allies know the concept... but I'm not going to sell them the tech: let alone ship it to complete strangers. Heck, I even refused to refit a close ally's Type 45s with my (100%) unique application of gravitic technology. Giving people you top-of-the-line stuff is uttely stupid... and nobody keeps a battleship lying in dock waiting for someone to buy it.

<Kills anyone who does insta-sales> Go Morgy!

agreed. i just seen a n00b buy 3 battleships. it took me about a week to make my first battleship. this really is messing up the game.
-this is bumplords

Melkor raises a good point, one of the reasons I stay clear of most store fronts.

tag

I have always agreed. However, as others have pointed out, not everyone wants to do it right.

Here is a question for you all. Am I doing this good enough?
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73774&highlight=

I have figured out where the money is comming from, and how I got to this number. More details could be given, I do not have it in front of me, but the basics was that I got it from:
1) Making no purchases for 2 years to save up,
2) a special tax on my citizens for a period of 6 years,
3) a special, congress approved, one time procurment allotment,
And a couple others.

Is it going too far?

OOC: I've tried RPing sales, and since i've sold squat. Mostly because most folks these days are an unimaginative bunch of lazy humps. I've never tried selling capitol craft, because frankly, I don't have a surplus of them at all. My old fighters i've tried selling, and got nada.

That, I think, is a good point. It's one thing to point out that people are going about things wrong (I quite agree) but entirely another to fix the problem. WoS isn't really inclined to buy all that much for other nations, being as it is a 1940s ish tech nation (though we did acquire two capital ships from Iansisle- they were ships which existed previously in his fleet, and would have gone to the breakers had we not come along- surely that's about the only way nations buy vessels of such size IRL? Like commonwealth states buying ex-British carriers and such?), but my other nation, Dra-pol, is not in a position to properly arm itself, and I've found it hard to get anyone else to bother delivering them arms, as it would require some thought. The nation is at war and besieged, no one can be arsed RPing shipments (plus I'm seeking to keep it using Asian tech, and everyone wants to sell us top of the line MiGs, Abrams, and so on. Borrrring..).

Ah well. I think the moral of the story is simply that elitism and snobbery are the only way forward!
..and if you missed that, you're scum, get away from me.

I'm not sure what I think of the way people "save up" money.. I mean, there's generally such a thing as a national reserve.. but if it gets too large voters, economists, politicians, will probably want something done with it after a while, don't they? And convincing the nation to build it up in the first place when the money could be breaking that fire-fighters' strike or something, isn't as easy as just saying so. Generally. Is it? I dunno.

As for me I must admit that some times I forget and just use the "I want X money wired" "Thank you weapons shipped" formula, but latly, my store front is more of a show off thread. I show off my Infantry weapons for modern and future tech, and I sell the out dated models.

This touches on a couple of pet peeves of mine, timescale and People Just Not Getting It.

As for timescale, the year/day gets silly. I'm no extremist like EOTED - who runs realtime - but for playing international relations month/day to year/week seems about right. Particularly, year/day is used by people who flatly refuse to acknowledge the existence of operational costs to amass huge clusters of steel penises.

10 thousand??? no way. most ive ever sold was 500 suitcase and 500 dirtybombs at once. I seem to remember something about you and calculating your total mass of nukes to somewhere larger than the planet earth.

Another thing wrong with storefronts:
"OMG I have a super carrier and it contains all my super secret technology. Who wants to buy it."

Countries just don't give away valuable technology like that.

nope. I have about 30-40 thousand nukes though. I wish I had more nukes then the mass of the Earth. Dont know where I would put them though.

I agree with Melkor, it's gotten pretty bad. I don't sale my space craft for the exact reason I don't sell WMD, newbies don't have enough strategic/tactical reasoning or rp experience to use them responsibly. Even when I sold modern tech stuff there was a time table on the heavier equipment and even then I only sold it to close allies. People just don't seem to understand that store fronts are RP too.

right now i'm only selling small weapons and LLAV's (slightly smaller then T-90 tanks, but more complex and expensive to make), so most of what is said here doesn't really apply.

and yes, i do have a reasonable stock of my laser weapons just lying around, they require minimal maintenance when they're in use and even less when they're stored so storing them isn't a big problem

storing LLAV's is a bigger problem tough but they can (just like cars) be mass-produced with dozens of LLAV's per day with just 1 factory

I'll amit have come up with my own types of star and naval warships, infantiry weaponary and miltary vechicles and planes but I try to be realistic and I don't sell them. its to much of a pain.

I have only been on NS for a few days but i have never used the money wired technique soooo unrealistic. Its like you don'#t expect Tony Blair or George bush to open up there laptop log into and internet banking site and send money.

I always put "The armed republic of Kazaakisthans ministry of defence would like to purchase.
<insert products></insert product>
The money will be sent in a transport plane. The estimated flight time will be 4 hours please lower your air defences. Thank You"