NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm getting sick of this shit. We have the BF2k3P in place, yet you keep perpetrating acts of war against my nation. We discussed this at length, and decided ultimately against World War Terminus, yet since that discussion, you've shot down the Nargothrond, and Xaosis! Has totally screwed me over by selling my nation's largest company behind my back.

You swear up and down [and this is all of y'all, not just one person] about how we shouldn't be going to war, yet you turn around and pull this garbage. Where I come from, that's called "violation of OOC/IC confidentiality," and if this goddamn BS happens one more time, I'm going to say "f*ck it" and go to war with your asses anyway, BF2k3P or no.

Now what in the blue fuck am I supposed to do about Sehndem scrapping my nation's largest company? It's impossible for me to get back at them [well, nearly] without going to war outright, which would most certainly draw the attention of Menelmacar and Titan. ICly, there is no way in hell that Melkor would have allowed this--or especially the Nargothrond incident to go unpunished.

Stop taking advantage of the BitchFest Protocol. I damn well mean it.

Anyone else bumping up their DEFCON level?

Me!

*Sends a pair of chinese stress balls to Melkor's fortress*

I realise that this is directed against the other three, however I must *TAG* this for further reference. Sorry to interupt.

If you need a moderator possition on any further discussion, Ruhr will be happy to host talks in the serene Pacific Ocean.

OOC: Okay. I'm kind of annoyed at the suggestion I planned an act of war.

1. The sale of Xao-Angband was a fully legal private transaction between Xaosis! and the Resi Corporation. As a private company they're entitled to sell their assets to whoever they please. I knew about it in advance, but I'd sorta have to, since I own a quarter of the company. Of course, if Melkor wants to be ICly offended by the sale and seize the assets, that's his business, being the Big Bad Overlord of the country in which said assets were based. But an act of war it certainly was not.

2. The explosives... yes, that would be an act of war. However, neither the government of Menelmacar nor Siri herself was privy to or complicit in the plans to execute the bombings. If Melkor wants to ICly file a polite request (not a demand) with the Menelmacari government that we investigate the incident at our end, we will do so, and we'll even do so honestly. I've said it before that Menelmacar is not a haven for terrorists, even if we support their 'causes'. I intend to hold to that.

That is all. Have a nice day.

~Siri

I have one thought that I will share on this matter.

Due to the Bipolar nature of this universe, a bid for unipolarism would be, and is, inevitable. Boiled down this is a Good vs. Evil matchup, and if a war would come to pass... Well I have my hopes that this is the first major war without God Modding, but I also know that this will change the very nature of the universe if one side was allowed to totally defeat the other. But in a war such as this... total distruction of one of the poles would be impossible.

I know where I would stand, but in this conflict... there will be no way to know who wins until near the very end.

Anyone else bumping up their DEFCON level?Nope. I have a "Don't F*ck with Arda or the EOTED" policy. As long as they don't go over Crimmond(Which is based in Poland and Czekloslovokia), I got no problem with them blowing each other up.

Just in case i'm arming my anti-missle defense system.

Just in case i'm arming my anti-missle defense system.You don't have them armed 24/7? :shock:

Last hijack, I'm gone...

You two, Enough hijacking!

I'd just like to point out that this is OOC, and although I realize most of you are probably just kidding around, nothing has really been said to this effect ICly.

Where can I find this BF2K3 protocal? Is it official or just something agreed upon via TGs and stuff. Meaning, I'd like to peruse the thread and see how this thing came to friutition.

On a side note, now would be as good a time as any to start rampaging through your sworn enemies. Menelmcar and the majority of the ToY will be focused on me for a while. It'd be nice to have some pressure taken off my back :wink:

::backs away:: not touching this, you can all go blow your bits of the universe up, but im staying out of it.

This blindsided me as much as it did you. However, it's an internal Xaosis affair--if he cuts out, it's his own call. I'm merely reacting as Scolopendra would, in a completely defensive posture.

Besides, if your own brother goes turncoat, there's very little I can do about it. Xaosis did say that you and him had some sort of cool Cold-War RP idea, and I thought this may be it.

*kicks backs and get ready for the fireworks*

::backs away:: not touching this, you can all go blow your bits of the universe up, but im staying out of it.

agreed. Good luck Melkor. You'll need it. :)

Stop taking advantage of the BitchFest Protocol. I damn well mean it.

OC: Hee hee.

Wasn't that statement OC? Are you looking for an IC response?

::backs away:: not touching this, you can all go blow your bits of the universe up, but im staying out of it.

agreed. Good luck Melkor. You'll need it. :)Not if the war goes like last time...

::backs away:: not touching this, you can all go blow your bits of the universe up, but im staying out of it.

agreed. Good luck Melkor. You'll need it. :)Not if the war goes like last time...

OOC: Hey, the war would be the end of NS 1 world. We could just move on to NS2. And this war would be planned

Anyways, war or no war we will play the role history assigns us.

A clash of the titans? The All-Seeing Eye of the Devorus Collective awaits the conflict with its mind-popcorn in its mental hands.

The All-Seeing Eye
The Hive Mind
The Grand Communal Empire of the Devorus Collective
Devorus Collective Information Thread:
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73955

Hey, Melk, if we do destroy the world, we have to make sure the fronts get all squiggly and steamroll all these jokers who think they're just gonna stand and watch.

I suggest we start with that guy. *points up* I mean, he's asking for it. The name suggests "Devour-Us." I suggest we take him up on it.

:twisted:

:wink:

[some random smiley here]

--Hearty Aerospace Pirate Cap'n Scolo

Hey, Melk, if we do destroy the world, we have to make sure the fronts get all squiggly and steamroll all these jokers who think they're just gonna stand and watch.

I suggest we start with that guy. *points up* I mean, he's asking for it. The name suggests "Devour-Us." I suggest we take him up on it.

:twisted:

:wink:

[some random smiley here]

--Hearty Aerospace Pirate Cap'n Scolo

[ooc: agreed! :twisted: bwahahahahahahahaaaaaa!]

Where can I find this BF2K3 protocal? Is it official or just something agreed upon via TGs and stuff.

It's essentially an OOC agreement between Scolo, Siri, and Melk to never ever ever go to war, because war between them would inevitably involve The Complete And Utter Destruction Of All Things That Live And Most Things That Don't. They figure that RPing a Cold War is way more fun than that, and frankly I agree. ^_^

*Starts moving all citizens off of earth and into slipstream ships*

Melkor, calm down, calm down, take a deep breath, breath in and out, in and out, now think things over rationaly don't go to war with Menelmacar and EOTED and SATO, I like my country, you like yours, just think things over and talk it out over IRC.

come on lets see a war. With all the big players duking it out it gives people like me a chance to just knock off random people and take over:)

We won't be involved in this matter. However, if our Menelmacari allies call us, we will support them in anyway we can...

come on lets see a war. With all the big players duking it out it gives people like me a chance to just knock off random people and take over:)
Ahh, another target for Operation Bloody Squiggly Fronts Steamroller.

--Hearty Aerospace Pirate Cap'n Scolo

Ahh I've done the whole attack Melkor in his back garden thing, and if it ever happened again I'd want a clear and defined Command Structure and the assurance we where all singing from the same song sheet.

Actually I'd want Melkor planning for us, but anyway...

::: feels safe in his Mutual Defence pact from any of Scol's operations especially that Operation Bloody Squiggly Fronts Steamroller. It just sounds Sticky.:::

I stress that if Melkor and Melmenclari go to war I will sell weapons to all!!!
i.e. Everybody loves me so don't hurt me!!!1.

I stress that if Melkor and Melmenclari go to war I will remain neutral and try to help those trying to find a peaceful solution

i.e. I'm staying out of the way but if peace happens I'll claim credit.

NOOO Don't say that you'll be targeted by Operation Bloody Squiggly Fronts Steamroller. If you intend on being Neutral in such a hypothetical war NEVER admit it on pain of Squiggly fronts streamroller death.

Let's look at this reasonably... if, for some reason, the BF2K3 protocol failed.... I predict this chain of events:

Melkor and Menelmacar go at it.
Thusly, the regions of Arda and Titan get dragged into it.
People wanting to get on the good side of either jump in.
Poor roleplayers jump in and trash the entire thing, leading to massive nuclear/chemical/biological/ignoretech warfare, because OMG NOES EYE N00K TEH 0RCZ/313VES!
Almost all the NS mods would be dragged into it- Menelmacar, Melkor, Scolopendra, Karma, myself (through being a member of the ToY), GMC (via mutual defense pact with me)...

It WOULD be World War Terminus!

Oh... and all the people getting ready to sit back and watch the fireworks would get wiped out by Operation Bloody Squiggly Fronts Steamroller.

~Evil Empress Rep Prod

And the only mods left would be...

Neutered Sputniks, Stephistan, Enodia, and Cogitation (Yavin doesn't count because no one hates him).

And we don't want THAT as a post-war future, do we? :wink:

--Hearty Aerospace Pirate Cap'n Scolo

come on lets see a war. With all the big players duking it out it gives people like me a chance to just knock off random people and take over:)
God, we can't let that happen.

I say we call a ceasefire between us half way through the war and ensure that Belem gets steamrolled.

8)

sorry *tag*.

*cough* and I wouldn't be neutral for fear of the Bloody Squiggly Fronts Steamroller... but as yet, I don't know which side to be on, ^^;;

Two reasons why such a War won't work:

1) Attracts crappy-ass RPers

2) Neither Side will admit defeat, no matter the numbers, the RP, the whatnot.

==

It wouldn't be WW Terminus by any means, not even w/ Op Squigly Steamrollers.

Simply a shitty RP, w/ constant bitchin'.

Two reasons why such a War won't work:

1) Attracts crappy-ass RPers

2) Neither Side will admit defeat, no matter the numbers, the RP, the whatnot.

==

It wouldn't be WW Terminus by any means, not even w/ Op Squigly Steamrollers.

Simply a shitty RP, w/ constant bitchin'.
Well, that was my other basis for the BF2K3P. And such things aren't fun.

--Hearty Aerospace Pirate Cap'n Scolo

Two reasons why such a War won't work:

1) Attracts crappy-ass RPers

2) Neither Side will admit defeat, no matter the numbers, the RP, the whatnot.

==

It wouldn't be WW Terminus by any means, not even w/ Op Squigly Steamrollers.

Simply a shitty RP, w/ constant bitchin'.

We be agreein' with Ur here.

As this deals with the deal between XAOSIS! and I, *tag*.

The BF2K3 Protocol was drawn up BEFORE the EotED War? .

This game is meant to be fun, because it is a game. The only game that is supposed to drive you nuts are card games and gambling.

Now, this war...in absolutely no way (except for Belem and Dork Terror)...would never be anywhere near worth the excitement. Millions upon millions dead, trillions wasted, cities destroyed, polluted skies, seas, lands, whatever...the list goes on.

That is if you look at it in the NS world. Settle your god damn differences IC and be happy because I quite frankly want to maintain the Pacific Peace Act of 2014. That act will force me into the war to be a warmongering-peaceful-intervening-target.

I don't want that....you don't want this....Belem wants this. Isn't that reason enough to forget about it?

Well, this has certainly gotten my interest. We'll just be going to DEFCON 3 now and reprogramming half of our missiles to STO mode. If a war does erupt, I acknowledge it will be the end of Terra and probably Sol System, so I'll be moving my government and military to Tempest System while the rest of you duke it out*.

*- This is if and when a war does break out, not now.

Well, this has certainly gotten my interest. We'll just be going to DEFCON 3 now and reprogramming half of our missiles to STO mode. If a war does erupt, I acknowledge it will be the end of Terra and probably Sol System, so I'll be moving my government and military to Tempest System while the rest of you duke it out*.

*- This is if and when a war does break out, not now.

Hey, nice to see you again. But like I stated before, even if the NS BigWigs go to war, NS Earth, Terra, whatever you want to call it, would not be destroyed.

And any war with major, major powers would only turn out to be bitchy RPs.

So... How's everyone doing?

Hey, buddy. Are you back Indefinitely.

If so, I think you should know that the coalition failed miserably.

World War Terminus...........does have a nice ring to it, don't you think?

Where can I find this BF2K3 protocal? Is it official or just something agreed upon via TGs and stuff.

It's essentially an OOC agreement between Scolo, Siri, and Melk to never ever ever go to war, because war between them would inevitably involve The Complete And Utter Destruction Of All Things That Live And Most Things That Don't. They figure that RPing a Cold War is way more fun than that, and frankly I agree. ^_^

OOC: Bah. Even cold wars end. All you have now is constant sniping from afar and both sides using their proxies in conflicts. Basically Ur said it best: neither side will admit defeat - even if you discount any crappy roleplayers getting involved since they can basically be ignored.

On a somewhat related note, will we ever hear the end of the Melkor/Milantos conflict or has that been relegated to Limbo?

I think it would be much better if both sides decided ICly that open war is stupid, and thus went for the 'non open war' approach. Raiding, blowing up important targets, secret agents, sneaking people into each others government. It would still be war like, but not über armies of absalute destruction war like. Such a war would be crashed by shitty roleplayers, as they usually are.

Ok, everyone, stop speculating.

This whole thing just reeks of a deep-seated conspiracy, but regardless of it all...

An Arda/Titan war would be stupid because Titan would whipe the floor with Arda in a heartbeat. However, because this is a free form system, there are things such as fairness dictate everything.

SO, Yut would have to power down significantly to allow for a more balanced war, but even then... *shrug*

Basically, the majority of Yut will back the BitchFest protocol and will not be dragged into any war, Angelus included.

As far as anyone is concerned, this was a private transaction between corporations, and was not backed by any government outside of the shareholders and the corporate governments. period.

The explosion was Xoa's idea, and was not an act of war. period.

So Melkz got played hard and is bitching about it. However, Melkz got played by his own IRL brother, so it had nothing to do with Yut or Arda.

I'm still Melkor's enemy, but since he ignores me it doesn't matter too much.

OOC: Wait wait wait. The end of NS world as we know it? I admit there are some big and powerful nations in Yut and Arda, but really, the NS world rather outnumbers you dozens of thousands to one. There are so many who ignore you guys already for being a bunch of fantasy elves and future tech nations that if you unleashed some planet killers or just had your massive war or whatever, it wouldn't affect them ICly whatsoever. And there are so many who don't even notice your actions at all because the NS forums aren't everything, so it wouldn't affect them all either.

And, lastly, even if they didnt ignore you and went along with your RP, they're not going to roleplay the death of their nation, let alone the entire NS world. Anymore than you people would ever roleplay the death of your nation (okay, or me, though I've RPd the death of my government and foreign invasion and losing a war. It's really not that bad. But of course no one wants to RP the actual annihilation of everyone or everything.)

So I guess THAT is the ultimate truth of ah, the bitchfest protocol. Nobody is willing to accept any losses, and the war would just be a lame bitchfest with everyone trying to explain how their magic tech is immune to other peoples magic tech.

So it really wouldn't be the end of the NS world as we know it... just you guys. Cuz then everyone would see how ridiculous it is to have people who care far too much about their national pride fighting wars with far-future magic tech against each other. And in a free form setting too!

Proxy wars, thats the ticket. Proxy. Lets say that Melkor, Siri et al know, or at least strongly feel (mostly due to their overinflated egos) that war between one another would be catastrophic for both, so you oppose each other with unwritten IC mutual understandings of proxy wars (friends fighting friends of your enemy) and regular economic/covert means, such as that XAOSIS thing. And lets just leave it at that, unless you can all happen to find and agree on an objective, fair minded and realistic GM for some war and possibly a good set of ground rules to lay down what is and is not possible or allowed.

(Not sure I added anything to this discussion, actually. Oh well.)

OOC: Wait wait wait. The end of NS world as we know it? I admit there are some big and powerful nations in Yut and Arda, but really, the NS world rather outnumbers you dozens of thousands to one. There are so many who ignore you guys already for being a bunch of fantasy elves and future tech nations that if you unleashed some planet killers or just had your massive war or whatever, it wouldn't affect them ICly whatsoever. And there are so many who don't even notice your actions at all because the NS forums aren't everything, so it wouldn't affect them all either.

And, lastly, even if they didnt ignore you and went along with your RP, they're not going to roleplay the death of their nation, let alone the entire NS world. Anymore than you people would ever roleplay the death of your nation (okay, or me, though I've RPd the death of my government and foreign invasion and losing a war. It's really not that bad. But of course no one wants to RP the actual annihilation of everyone or everything.)

So I guess THAT is the ultimate truth of ah, the bitchfest protocol. Nobody is willing to accept any losses, and the war would just be a lame bitchfest with everyone trying to explain how their magic tech is immune to other peoples magic tech.

So it really wouldn't be the end of the NS world as we know it... just you guys. Cuz then everyone would see how ridiculous it is to have people who care far too much about their national pride fighting wars with far-future magic tech against each other. And in a free form setting too!

Proxy wars, thats the ticket. Proxy. Lets say that Melkor, Siri et al know, or at least strongly feel (mostly due to their overinflated egos) that war between one another would be catastrophic for both, so you oppose each other with unwritten IC mutual understandings of proxy wars (friends fighting friends of your enemy) and regular economic/covert means, such as that XAOSIS thing. And lets just leave it at that, unless you can all happen to find and agree on an objective, fair minded and realistic GM for some war and possibly a good set of ground rules to lay down what is and is not possible or allowed.

(Not sure I added anything to this discussion, actually. Oh well.)

Hey, I for one agree with this 100%.

I will also note that by not getting into such a war, neither one looses the respect of other players, so both retain followers. Those followers keep both nations as "superpowers" in the NS world (and help prevent other nations from becoming them).

Incidentally, this "war by proxy" system keeps the world more stable then if there was a war...because if there was one, a lot of political power would change hands...and everyone and their dog would try to be the new superpower.

EDIT: I know, bad writing. It's late OK! :)

OOC:

I should perhaps clarify my previous post when I stated "cold wars can end". If by using RL as a model, yes, it's true that the "big" cold war between the USSR (now the Russian Federation) and the USA has ended. But, this does not mean that intrigue, espionage, etc... isn't going on. China is a rising power, terrorism seems to be more prevalent, and the world is more multi-polar. Who says that the current "cold war" among the major players (Yut and Arda) can't end? It could merely morph into something else that no one expects. Or can control. :wink:

Even if you guys carried it out to the end of the world, I wouldn't have to acknowledge it for several RL years. Ah, the wonders of modern RP.

Even if you guys carried it out to the end of the world, I wouldn't have to acknowledge it for several RL years. Ah, the wonders of modern RP.

Yup. Santa Barbara, I'm sure you made quite an excellent point, but I didn't read half of it.

As for wars go, I think they should not be decided simply by tactics or whatnot. Maybe RP battles and strategies and have the outcome decided by a football game or baseball game. In RL, there's always that small sliver of chance that allows for the extraordinary.

So a war would consist of several bets. Like Nation Bitch-A-Lot has to face Nation Bitch-A-Lot-More. They fight and fight to a standstill, brilliant tactics, large firepower. Neither wants to lose. So they agree to bet the outcome of the battle on whoever wins the Packers-Bears game tomorrow.

Or whoever guesses the number of points scored get some sort of advantage in RP. Of course, a third party would have to maintain this...

Napoleon, Patton, the Great generals won their way to fame through gambling. Sometimes they won hugely, because they knew when to place the right bet. Or they lost, because their enemy had placed the right bet.

ooc: Yeay Ur is back. Now, Ur, make it so it will let me into the UTP forums?

OOC: Wait wait wait. The end of NS world as we know it? I admit there are some big and powerful nations in Yut and Arda, but really, the NS world rather outnumbers you dozens of thousands to one. There are so many who ignore you guys already for being a bunch of fantasy elves and future tech nations that if you unleashed some planet killers or just had your massive war or whatever, it wouldn't affect them ICly whatsoever. And there are so many who don't even notice your actions at all because the NS forums aren't everything, so it wouldn't affect them all either.

And, lastly, even if they didnt ignore you and went along with your RP, they're not going to roleplay the death of their nation, let alone the entire NS world. Anymore than you people would ever roleplay the death of your nation (okay, or me, though I've RPd the death of my government and foreign invasion and losing a war. It's really not that bad. But of course no one wants to RP the actual annihilation of everyone or everything.)

So I guess THAT is the ultimate truth of ah, the bitchfest protocol. Nobody is willing to accept any losses, and the war would just be a lame bitchfest with everyone trying to explain how their magic tech is immune to other peoples magic tech.

So it really wouldn't be the end of the NS world as we know it... just you guys. Cuz then everyone would see how ridiculous it is to have people who care far too much about their national pride fighting wars with far-future magic tech against each other. And in a free form setting too!

Proxy wars, thats the ticket. Proxy. Lets say that Melkor, Siri et al know, or at least strongly feel (mostly due to their overinflated egos) that war between one another would be catastrophic for both, so you oppose each other with unwritten IC mutual understandings of proxy wars (friends fighting friends of your enemy) and regular economic/covert means, such as that XAOSIS thing. And lets just leave it at that, unless you can all happen to find and agree on an objective, fair minded and realistic GM for some war and possibly a good set of ground rules to lay down what is and is not possible or allowed.

(Not sure I added anything to this discussion, actually. Oh well.)

Hey, I for one agree with this 100%.

I will also note that by not getting into such a war, neither one looses the respect of other players, so both retain followers. Those followers keep both nations as "superpowers" in the NS world (and help prevent other nations from becoming them).

Incidentally, this "war by proxy" system keeps the world more stable then if there was a war...because if there was one, a lot of political power would change hands...and everyone and their dog would try to be the new superpower.

EDIT: I know, bad writing. It's late OK! :)

Santa Barbara I agree with you, this is the reason the war will not happen, and also Vrak, the cold war ended because the USSR was falling apart ecomomicaly, millitarily (they could not pay their soldiers), and politicaly. Then, they got a reformer who started the turn to capitalism, and then, pretty much over night, the USSR was gone, unfortunatly for Yut, none of these things see to be happening to Melkor.

Thelas, the loss of Xoasis is a major hit to the economic power of Melkor and while it will not cripple Melkor in the long run it will do so in the short run and make it hard for Melkor to pick up the slack. Will WWT take out the entire NS world? Not as far as everyone is concerned but it will for anyone who acknowledges ToY and Arda (which includes me, I've had three wars with an Arda member).

Thelas, the loss of Xoasis is a major hit to the economic power of Melkor and while it will not cripple Melkor in the long run it will do so in the short run and make it hard for Melkor to pick up the slack. Will WWT take out the entire NS world? Not as far as everyone is concerned but it will for anyone who acknowledges ToY and Arda (which includes me, I've had three wars with an Arda member).

Although the question is wether Melkor will just create government factories and pick up the slack himself.

Thelas, the loss of Xoasis is a major hit to the economic power of Melkor and while it will not cripple Melkor in the long run it will do so in the short run and make it hard for Melkor to pick up the slack. Will WWT take out the entire NS world? Not as far as everyone is concerned but it will for anyone who acknowledges ToY and Arda (which includes me, I've had three wars with an Arda member).

Although the question is wether Melkor will just create government factories and pick up the slack himself.

He'll have to out of necessity, but because he'll have Orcs as his workers he'll be missing the ingenuity and problem solving skills humans are known for. Thus, it will be difficult for him to pick up the slack and what's more his equipment will have more faults in it cause Orcs ain't all that smart.

Thelas, the loss of Xoasis is a major hit to the economic power of Melkor and while it will not cripple Melkor in the long run it will do so in the short run and make it hard for Melkor to pick up the slack. Will WWT take out the entire NS world? Not as far as everyone is concerned but it will for anyone who acknowledges ToY and Arda (which includes me, I've had three wars with an Arda member).

Although the question is wether Melkor will just create government factories and pick up the slack himself.

He'll have to out of necessity, but because he'll have Orcs as his workers he'll be missing the ingenuity and problem solving skills humans are known for. Thus, it will be difficult for him to pick up the slack and what's more his equipment will have more faults in it cause Orcs ain't all that smart.

Don't forget that there are some humans who work for him, the Southrons, and such, so he will not be totaly incapasitated.

Santa Barbara I agree with you, this is the reason the war will not happen, and also Vrak, the cold war ended because the USSR was falling apart ecomomicaly, millitarily (they could not pay their soldiers), and politicaly. Then, they got a reformer who started the turn to capitalism, and then, pretty much over night, the USSR was gone, unfortunatly for Yut, none of these things see to be happening to Melkor.

OOC: Yes, of course. My main point was that things do change. That's it.

...

An Arda/Titan war would be stupid because Titan would whipe the floor with Arda in a heartbeat. However, because this is a free form system, there are things such as fairness dictate everything....

Woah... check that Ego there Angelus. I think you're dead wrong about that.

OOC: Off in the distance...some orc is banging a war drum. :)

OOC: Wait wait wait. The end of NS world as we know it? I admit there are some big and powerful nations in Yut and Arda, but really, the NS world rather outnumbers you dozens of thousands to one. There are so many who ignore you guys already for being a bunch of fantasy elves and future tech nations that if you unleashed some planet killers or just had your massive war or whatever, it wouldn't affect them ICly whatsoever. And there are so many who don't even notice your actions at all because the NS forums aren't everything, so it wouldn't affect them all either.

And, lastly, even if they didnt ignore you and went along with your RP, they're not going to roleplay the death of their nation, let alone the entire NS world. Anymore than you people would ever roleplay the death of your nation (okay, or me, though I've RPd the death of my government and foreign invasion and losing a war. It's really not that bad. But of course no one wants to RP the actual annihilation of everyone or everything.)

So I guess THAT is the ultimate truth of ah, the bitchfest protocol. Nobody is willing to accept any losses, and the war would just be a lame bitchfest with everyone trying to explain how their magic tech is immune to other peoples magic tech.

So it really wouldn't be the end of the NS world as we know it... just you guys. Cuz then everyone would see how ridiculous it is to have people who care far too much about their national pride fighting wars with far-future magic tech against each other. And in a free form setting too!

Proxy wars, thats the ticket. Proxy. Lets say that Melkor, Siri et al know, or at least strongly feel (mostly due to their overinflated egos) that war between one another would be catastrophic for both, so you oppose each other with unwritten IC mutual understandings of proxy wars (friends fighting friends of your enemy) and regular economic/covert means, such as that XAOSIS thing. And lets just leave it at that, unless you can all happen to find and agree on an objective, fair minded and realistic GM for some war and possibly a good set of ground rules to lay down what is and is not possible or allowed.

(Not sure I added anything to this discussion, actually. Oh well.)

[my point is that the BF2k3 thing is making it rather ridiculously hard for me to stay In Character with people running around doing shit that he'd [i]never see unpunished in a million years. The REAL Morgoth would have gone to war with Yut a long time ago over the Nargothrond debacle. The REAL Morgoth would likewise immediately turn on Xaosis! and bitch-slap him.

But alas, I cannot. Does anyone else see my point here?]

OOC: Wait wait wait. The end of NS world as we know it? I admit there are some big and powerful nations in Yut and Arda, but really, the NS world rather outnumbers you dozens of thousands to one. There are so many who ignore you guys already for being a bunch of fantasy elves and future tech nations that if you unleashed some planet killers or just had your massive war or whatever, it wouldn't affect them ICly whatsoever. And there are so many who don't even notice your actions at all because the NS forums aren't everything, so it wouldn't affect them all either.

And, lastly, even if they didnt ignore you and went along with your RP, they're not going to roleplay the death of their nation, let alone the entire NS world. Anymore than you people would ever roleplay the death of your nation (okay, or me, though I've RPd the death of my government and foreign invasion and losing a war. It's really not that bad. But of course no one wants to RP the actual annihilation of everyone or everything.)

So I guess THAT is the ultimate truth of ah, the bitchfest protocol. Nobody is willing to accept any losses, and the war would just be a lame bitchfest with everyone trying to explain how their magic tech is immune to other peoples magic tech.

So it really wouldn't be the end of the NS world as we know it... just you guys. Cuz then everyone would see how ridiculous it is to have people who care far too much about their national pride fighting wars with far-future magic tech against each other. And in a free form setting too!

Proxy wars, thats the ticket. Proxy. Lets say that Melkor, Siri et al know, or at least strongly feel (mostly due to their overinflated egos) that war between one another would be catastrophic for both, so you oppose each other with unwritten IC mutual understandings of proxy wars (friends fighting friends of your enemy) and regular economic/covert means, such as that XAOSIS thing. And lets just leave it at that, unless you can all happen to find and agree on an objective, fair minded and realistic GM for some war and possibly a good set of ground rules to lay down what is and is not possible or allowed.

(Not sure I added anything to this discussion, actually. Oh well.)

[my point is that the BF2k3 thing is making it rather ridiculously hard for me to stay In Character with people running around doing shit that he'd [i]never see unpunished in a million years. The REAL Morgoth would have gone to war with Yut a long time ago over the Nargothrond debacle. The REAL Morgoth would likewise immediately turn on Xaosis! and bitch-slap him.

But alas, I cannot. Does anyone else see my point here?]

Yes, I do. While BF2k3 makes everyone else content, your ability to properly RP your country and its leaders is being... diminished.

I suppose that you, Morgoth, would be considered to be in a perpetual state of "bidding" your time.

[my point is that the BF2k3 thing is making it rather ridiculously hard for me to stay In Character with people running around doing shit that he'd [i]never see unpunished in a million years. The REAL Morgoth would have gone to war with Yut a long time ago over the Nargothrond debacle. The REAL Morgoth would likewise immediately turn on Xaosis! and bitch-slap him.

But alas, I cannot. Does anyone else see my point here?]

Yes, but then the real Morgoth wouldn't commit national suicide over it either. He's smart and evil and immortal, he's not exactly a human dictator who has to exact instant retribution before he gets old and gets Alzheimers and forgets. Or like Sketch said, you could just be bidding your time.

But I dunno. Maybe there SHOULD be a war! There has to be a way around BF2k3 besides just not ever going to war. Such as with a GM-moderated, perhaps loose rule-based invite RP. None of this crap with people bringing in a few dozen Atlantic nations who can't RP a cardboard box.

The way around the BF2K3 is to do an immitation of the US/USSR cold war, either that or have the two alliances go to war with no outside help (and a GM of course). Frankly, I'd like to see the latter, but that's just because I like fireworks and have a safe place to view them from.

Being the less openly aggressive one here, I'd like to point out a few things. Now, whether or not you find this helpful, enlightening, or just a bunch of useless drivel ... that's up to the individual reader.

Yes, Morg - your point is well taken, and I think valid. It's hard to play the bad guy when you're sticking to a set of 'rules'.

That being said ... there ARE other avenues available. And frankly, I'm continually amazed at the proclivity of 'either/or' reactions here with so many folks. "You pissed me off with that - WAAAAAR!" Oh yeah. Spiff. Or "You took an action to defend yourself? Oh that's it ... WAAAAR!" Or "You're supporting your ally? WAAAAAR!" Gadfreys folks, must it always be all out war? Is that really all you can come up with?

What about covert ops? Spies? Working through allies? Working through neutrals? My god, the possibilities are endless and guess what - there are MANY actions that shouldn't constitute all out war. Too many of you people are just plain too trigger happy - and this goes for ALL sides here, thankyouverymuchdrivethrough (refrains from naming names and pointing fingers - no use in that).

So ... sure, stick with the 'lets not get into an all out stupid war' between sides here. But go all out with the other options, and there are many. And folks, don't do the 'oooh, so and so is doing what their character/nation would naturally do - lets SMASH 'em' stuff I've been seeing all too often. You need each other to keep up the conflicts. Without good and evil folks, you've got yourself a lot of boring parties. And that's about it. What's required here is for all parties to remember yer gonna have to suck it up on occasion. Can't win 'em all, and don't have to lose 'em all either.

I've mentioned before I seem to see the supposed 'good guys' using the same tactics they blame the 'bad guys' for anymore, and expecting the other side to just take it. I've seen folks deliberately admit to stirring this whole situation up on purpose, despite the obvious consequences - is that really in keeping with the whole protocol bit? And if so, can't we all find some other way than WAR around it? Honestly now. Co-operation, communication, and for hellsakes some good RP. That's going to ultimately bring the fun into all this.

And last I checked ... that WAS supposed to be the whole point.

--Nathi's Player, admitedly rambling again.



P.S. -- personally, I think the Trium should hand over the XAOSIS! folks to Melkor as a 'peace offering' and call it good. *impish grin* It's damn straight what Nathi would do. Just a thought.

OOC: What in the hell just happened? I go away for a few days, and I find this? Jeez, I can't leave you folks alone for a minute!


Heh heh heh!

*notes he can't do jack about handing over Xaosis! heads, seeing how they're in the care of Angelus and Menelmacar*

Hey, youse guys, hand em's over!

And, yes, Sakkra, it's all your fault for leaving us unattended. What kind of a parent are you, anyway? :wink:

--Hearty Aerospace Pirate Cap'n Scolo

*notes he can't do jack about handing over Xaosis! heads, seeing how they're in the care of Angelus and Menelmacar*

Hey, youse guys, hand em's over!

And, yes, Sakkra, it's all your fault for leaving us unattended. What kind of a parent are you, anyway? :wink:

--Hearty Aerospace Pirate Cap'n Scolo

Well, I could have Morchant Tirith operatives assasinate them, although I dare say that Menelmacar would not be pleased with me.

OOC: Hey, if Angelus is allowed to obliterate Melkor's entire navy & not violate the BF2K3 Protocol because she was acting independently of the Triumverate, there's no reason why Melkor couldn't just act independently of Arda & seize XAOSIS! assets in his country, or at least totally wall them off, Berlin style (Except with no air drops.).

Like any agreement between sworn enemies, loopholes are exploited.

Have you people contemplated wars by proxy, a la Vietnam, Afganistan & Korea?

*notes that Melkor DID seize all Angband/Arda offices of XAOSIS!, and then they were subsequently destroyed by internal explosions set by XAOSIS! operatives*

OOC: I think we are missing a key element here.

Melkor, your my brother, and i love ya, but for the love of God, man, you've made Melkor a villain in this story! that's what he is, a freakin' villain! and it's totally unreasonable to expect a good storyline where the villain doesn't get what's comming to him. I mean christ, dude, you can't in good conscious rp this big bad dictator, and expect him to be at the same time the hero of the story.

The whole idea i had was to create a good story by doing something that very few of Melkor's enemies have ever been able to do, and that is score a point on the sonofabitch. Don't argue with me, bro, you know it's the truth.

Secondly, you know and I know that Melkor doesn't care about wrecking the world. He'd do it. He'd do it in a hearbeat. Anybody who reads Tolkien would know that in a second, so maybe it was a mistake for you to enter the BitchFest agreement in the first place.

Look. you cannot reasonably expect Melkor to score the game winning point in every single venture he takes. For god's sake, man, think of the story! I've been rereading a lot of the background story here and I tell ya, it's just depressing, all in all. What fun is it when the hero's can't win?????


You gotta make up your mind, man, to decide how you want to further the interest of the storyline. I mean MELKOR NEEDS TO BE TAKEN DOWN A PEG OR TWO!!!!

and on the terrorism note. and this is completely ooc. Xaosis did not detonate those bombs. What they did was sell it to people who wanted to strike a blow at his iron-plated ass. Simple as that. The real "terrorists" here were, as I would like to think for purposes of plot, desperate freedom fighters who knew they wouldn't get another chance like this in a million years. Don't you dare say that there isn't some kind of resistance to Melkor. It can and has been done. Just read the Silmarillion, specifically the story of Turin.

I remind you this all OOC. As far as anyone in the nationstates realm is concerned, nobody knows how thickly Xaosis was involved with that. And whatever you find you will find that Xaosis only sold the explosives to said groups. You may define that as terrorism if you wish, although if it is, then the executives of Smith and Wessen should be given the chair for all the murders that their products were used. Even you, Melkor-mun, agree with me on this, even if your character does not.

OOC: I think we are missing a key element here.

Melkor, your my brother, and i love ya, but for the love of God, man, you've made Melkor a villain in this story! that's what he is, a freakin' villain! and it's totally unreasonable to expect a good storyline where the villain doesn't get what's comming to him. I mean christ, dude, you can't in good conscious rp this big bad dictator, and expect him to be at the same time the hero of the story.

The whole idea i had was to create a good story by doing something that very few of Melkor's enemies have ever been able to do, and that is score a point on the sonofabitch. Don't argue with me, bro, you know it's the truth.Hate to tell ya this, but villians often win. Take books like "Of Mice and Men" for instance. Villians can also often be heroes in their own stories, for which I point to such movies as "The Rock" and such books as the Golden Compass and its sequels.

Also, check the other thread. We wrote you a letter.

NOTE: For those unfamiliar, this is the player of The SLAGLands and Burninatonia; I'm just conveniently logged onto the Outsets right now.

You gotta make up your mind, man, to decide how you want to further the interest of the storyline. I mean MELKOR NEEDS TO BE TAKEN DOWN A PEG OR TWO!!!!

Definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY buying this point. And I'll say it about everyone. Siri, Matty Iesus, Nathicana, Xeruyu vonKarma... the whole damned lot of the big "charismatic" world leaders who define their nation by their dominant personality ALL NEED TO BE TAKEN DOWN A PEG OR TWO EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE!

Hell, if it'll make you feel better, I'll add Lord Lancaster from Burninatonia and Esmerelda herself to that list... and I dare say Esmerelda's been taken down quite a few pegs after her plan to destroy The SLAGLands was thwarted by a few bumbling mortals in a cave. ;)

I despise perfect characters. I further despise characters who never get what's coming to them. Causality is a bitch not played often enough in NationStates. Personally, I'd love to see Siri's player attempt a storyline in which Siri is brutally embarassed or even shot down. I've seen it once, people... ONE TIME IN THE SIX MONTHS I'VE BEEN HERE. And that was over ISLAMIC UMMAH. Wouldn't it be fun to just have a storyline where Siri is just left utterly speechless and powerless and is incapable of saving herself from humiliation--even in spite of her bajillion gravyships? THAT'S fun, people. And I'm not talking about character destruction, either; a strong character will bounce back after said humiliation (dare I even say defeat?). We don't see enough of this. Everyone wants to feel vindicated all the time.

You'll notice I've never been vocal about the BF2K3 Protocol, in large part because it doesn't concern me. I seriously doubt that if Arda's going to wage war on Yut, they'll go for the goddamned pudding manufacturer first. If they do win said war, they'll mop me up easily, and I'll count my losses and move on.

I suppose that's my running theme here: count your losses and move on. Before you do that, though, you have to be willing to lose. And that goes for the lot of ya.

-Bill
Angry Roleplayer of The SLAGLands, Burninatonia, The Outset Islands, et al

(OOC: Speaker-to-Animals remembers Islamic Ummah... damn proud of it, too.)

Secondly, you know and I know that Melkor doesn't care about wrecking the world. He'd do it. He'd do it in a hearbeat. Anybody who reads Tolkien would know that in a second, so maybe it was a mistake for you to enter the BitchFest agreement in the first place.
[Hey, if you people start wreckin' stuff, I'm packing up and heading to Ganymede. See ya! --Felix]

I despise perfect characters [...] you have to be willing to lose. And that goes for the lot of ya.

-Bill
Angry Roleplayer of The SLAGLands, Burninatonia, The Outset Islands, et al

I agree! I try to make my characters balanced with flaws and virtues, desires and weaknesses. Hell, I must be like the only nation with a *gasp* UGLY leader! Ugly, kinda fat, getting old, and a drunk redneck to boot! I don't know why, but I find it infinitely more fun to RP that than some perfect, beautiful, immortal and all-knowing Anime dude/dudette.

AND the point about losing! Another good one. So far, in all of nationstates, the most fun I've had in a single RP was losing a war (my puppet nation, and the one I do most of my serious nation-level modern tech RP with).

Too many people get attached to their characters or nations, so they never want ANYTHING bad to happen to them. And too many people are trying to *win* somehow.

Its it fun for bad things to happen to your imaginary nation and its imaginary people (key word: imaginary!)

[I'm pretty sure that they're all willing to lose, most people won't allow the death of their main characters.]

[I'm pretty sure that they're all willing to lose, most people won't allow the death of their main characters.]

I killed off former Prime Minister Bill Bicknell, General Perry von Slagalotz (maybe the best character I've ever made), Granny Slag CEO Betty Sargeant, former Acting General/terror cell leader Toby Garet (not that he counts...), and Viceroy Mark Biddlebaum may be getting the ax soon. All four of these were well-developed characters with legitimate backgrounds, motives, and everything.

It's a bit different for people like Siri and Melkor, but point still stands.

[Dang. An'd I've only killed Crader and Drennell. ;)

But aye, different case here. Killing either Siri or Melk would make the game infinitly boring.]

OOC:

Loathe though I am to agree with someone over something, I agree with SLAG over this. I think nations are too big, in Nationstates, to be defined by the personality of one leader - no matter how strong a personality that is. I avoided this by splitting power between small groups. It does mean I get to do less character roleplay in which I singlehandedly pwn a hundred <badguyofrelevantthread>s but ... hey.

It's why I think I'd like to congratulate Lavenrunz, not only for being willing to take a beating on her character but even being willing to post it (despite my saying there was no necessity to do so). I mean, she's not the first to be kidnapped, but certainly the first to follow through.

Erm ... back to point. Uberpowerful, invincible characters may be fun for you to play, but not necessarily for anyone else to interact with. Even though the original point of the thread was correct - BF2k3 only limits one side from acting and should be scrapped - as a principle, being invincible is pretty limp-wristed.

Slag has a definite point. Everyone loses sometime, in a big or a small way.

Yeah, Melkor would take this hit, but not lying down. He'd send forth the Legions O'Doom and start taken the world apart to take out those who did it to him. He'd bounce back and hit harder than ever before.

Everyone seems to have valid points, and we ought to just allow BF2K3 to die off. If we then decide to RP a war to settle accounts, we do it closed or off site. But I think we can RP the conflict without resorting to Total War, even if that is slightly OOC for Morgy.

We've got to change the characters slightly to get better RP, somehow.

~The Dude Behind Sentient Peoples, and a lot of other nations.

[Dang. An'd I've only killed Crader and Drennell. ;)

But aye, different case here. Killing either Siri or Melk would make the game infinitly boring.]

Why? Siri has an entire nation of uberold elves to replace her with. Glorfindel, leader of her special forces. Serinde, the tradey elf. Serendis, the elf-who-acts-like-George-Bush. Turelio, the nice elf.

Melkor has Ungoliant, Gothmog, and so on. All of which could make a nice refreshing change.

Hrm... Kommetrez got chased off, Hertzfeldt is a loser, Garbo is paranoid, Razak is grumpy due to a really crappy past, and Speaker is quiet with a more-limited knowledge base.

The only uber-character I arguably have is Magnus Hesche (being pattered on 1930s serial heroes), and he doesn't show up that often.

Everyone seems to have valid points, and we ought to just allow BF2K3 to die off.

[Dravaek to his soldiers: "Get your gas masks and head to the bunkers! This happens, then in two weeks there's gonna be war!"]

OOC: Excellent points. Excellent I say. What's the use of playing an invincible guy. In all the great tales, movies et al, the 'hero' always has some character flaw or weakness. That's why they're so interesting to read or watch. Alas, not everyone is a classicly trained author, though....

Hrm... Kommetrez got chased off... <snip>
[He did? crap. That guy was cool.]

Well, me, I'm in a tough position because I don't have an ubercharacter. Sehndem may be very very shrewd, and a good businessman, but he doesn't simply have the military connections that such characters have.

This is frustrating to me, to say the least, because while Sehndem definatly has weaknesses, a lot of the people he rubs elbows with apparantly do not. Morgoth, for instance, has never been defeated in an all out fight in this game.

Yet I make a point to anyone who has read the Silmarillion that Eru Illuvatar has made it impossible for Morgoth to win every single time. He is only sucessful up to a point. If Lord of the Rings and the rest of the Tolkien literature has taught us anything, it's that Morgoth and his servants ultimately fail. Maybe not right away, and certainly not without winning a great deal in the short term, but in the end.

My point here is that Morgoth-mun actually cheers Morgoth on when he reads the Silmarillion (i know, I'm his bro), and that's a huge mistake. Dude, you've almost convinced yourself that Morgoth is a good guy!!!!!!!!!!

Well, me, I'm in a tough position because I don't have an ubercharacter. Sehndem may be very very shrewd, and a good businessman, but he doesn't simply have the military connections that such characters have.

This is frustrating to me, to say the least, because while Sehndem definatly has weaknesses, a lot of the people he rubs elbows with apparantly do not. Morgoth, for instance, has never been defeated in an all out fight in this game.

Yet I make a point to anyone who has read the Silmarillion that Eru Illuvatar has made it impossible for Morgoth to win every single time. He is only sucessful up to a point. If Lord of the Rings and the rest of the Tolkien literature has taught us anything, it's that Morgoth and his servants ultimately fail. Maybe not right away, and certainly not without winning a great deal in the short term, but in the end.

My point here is that Morgoth-mun actually cheers Morgoth on when he reads the Silmarillion (i know, I'm his bro), and that's a huge mistake. Dude, you've almost convinced yourself that Morgoth is a good guy!!!!!!!!!!

I lost when a tried to invade EOTED, and again before in the One Ring incident. I've also been a part of several black ops that didn't go well. Yes, I have lost. What kills me is you disappearing from the face of NS earth for months at a time, then coming back claiming to know everything about what's happened in the meantime. If you're referring to the coalition war with this "unbeatable" business: They practically handed it to me. I'd probably would have had to actively tried to lose to lose that one.

Furthermore, what difference does it make which characters are my favorite? I happen to like Morgoth as a character, both for the dynamics he added to the book, and the character traits that we're all familiar with. He was, in my opinion, the first of his Ainur counterparts to actually have thought for himself.

It drove him to madness, I guess, but that's besides the point :wink:

Well, me, I'm in a tough position because I don't have an ubercharacter. Sehndem may be very very shrewd, and a good businessman, but he doesn't simply have the military connections that such characters have.

This is frustrating to me, to say the least, because while Sehndem definatly has weaknesses, a lot of the people he rubs elbows with apparantly do not. Morgoth, for instance, has never been defeated in an all out fight in this game.

Yet I make a point to anyone who has read the Silmarillion that Eru Illuvatar has made it impossible for Morgoth to win every single time. He is only sucessful up to a point. If Lord of the Rings and the rest of the Tolkien literature has taught us anything, it's that Morgoth and his servants ultimately fail. Maybe not right away, and certainly not without winning a great deal in the short term, but in the end.

My point here is that Morgoth-mun actually cheers Morgoth on when he reads the Silmarillion (i know, I'm his bro), and that's a huge mistake. Dude, you've almost convinced yourself that Morgoth is a good guy!!!!!!!!!!

I lost when a tried to invade EOTED, and again before in the One Ring incident. I've also been a part of several black ops that didn't go well. Yes, I have lost. What kills me is you disappearing from the face of NS earth for months at a time, then coming back claiming to know everything about what's happened in the meantime. If you're referring to the coalition war with this "unbeatable" business: They practically handed it to me. I'd probably would have had to actively tried to lose to lose that one.

Furthermore, what difference does it make which characters are my favorite? I happen to like Morgoth as a character, both for the dynamics he added to the book, and the character traits that we're all familiar with. He was, in my opinion, the first of his Ainur counterparts to actually have thought for himself.

It drove him to madness, I guess, but that's besides the point :wink:

I agree, every charicter has to have a weakness, Theallas, for example (my main charicter, who I admit I have become too attached to for my own good), has a slight problem with his past. He tends (under exsptream emotional stress) to go slightly insane. Mostly he becomes a ruthless killer. Who will kill allies when their usfullnes has exspired.

Wait, Thelas, so the one downside of your main character is that he flips out and kills people?

WWW.REALULTIMATEPOWER.NET (http://www.realultimatepower.net)


One other thing I'd like to bring up here - and totally unrelated to any prior posters, and I'm neither going to name names nor claim I can identify any persons doing this - is the following:

During my time playing games and running them (not just tabletops, bigger things like LARP events) I've noticed one rather interesting thing (that's relevant here). That is that the more powerful a character is, the closer their personality is to that of the player. Why? Because the player is, in effect, using escapism to make themselves so: their character becomes who they want to be. This is a really bad thing for roleplaying - character attachments should be casual. Otherwise it's not roleplaying, it's living a lie.

So, next time you decide to 'play a character' who 'trails darkness, blood and fire in his wake', who can stare the Devil in the eye and say "bite me, bitch", slaughter an army without breaking a sweat, teleport, raise the dead, slay the living at will, and ends up with almost exactly the same viewpoints as you ...

That's not roleplaying. Stop it!

To quote my regional IRC room's topic, I feel the following quote by Vegana is good:

* Vegana feels for players that are so distanced to their main chars so that they could accept their loss

Wait, Thelas, so the one downside of your main character is that he flips out and kills people?

WWW.REALULTIMATEPOWER.NET (http://www.realultimatepower.net)


NO ANYTHING BUT THAT SITE, MY EYES, MY EYES!

Well, no not like that, when he goes insane, he losses all inhibitions about killing, not to mention all consept of right and wrong. If you have even seen Rurouni Kenshin, the Manga, the anime, or Samurai X (The Japan version) Theallas is some what like Kenshin Himura. He is powerful but tends to be slightly ruthles (somes from killing people at the age of 14 for a living, and then not stopping about 1600 years later, that can tke a toll on some ones mental health)

I just don't feel that the 'disadvantage' of being an efficient ruthless cold-blooded killer is ... um ... a disadvantage.

Thanks for the kudos, WV!
I find that if you leave the great elements of storytelling out, you have no story. Character flaws are one such aspect.
Just taking, say, Shakespeare, you could note that character flaws dictate how you would deal with situations. For instance, if you switched Hamlet with Othello, Hamlet would have seen through Iago's schemes pretty quickly and found some way of trapping him. Othello, on the other hand, would not have hesitated to kill Claudius once his father's ghost had compelled him. Reversed back to their proper stories, though, the introspection of the one and the impetuousness of the other become tragic.
However, there's more to this than just tragedy. Without vulnerability, a character has nothing to overcome. Without conflict, there is no struggle, nothing to aspire to.
Of course, I know, some people enjoy seeing the big power triumphing. And it can be stirring, but if we are honest it is not so uplifting as the triumph against all odds.

General note on offing main characters: It can make for good stories but it does mean mucking up plotlines and finding a new voice. I can't say I blame players who assign a degree of plot immunity to their mouthpieces.



To begin with I'd be a bloody hypocrite. Then, my UberNinjaDeathMunchkins aren't actually going to kick anyone's ass except maybe in some martial arts show. However much they IC champ at the bit.

I just don't feel that the 'disadvantage' of being an efficient ruthless cold-blooded killer is ... um ... a disadvantage.

It has gotten Theallas into a pile of trouble, he has some other weakneses that if you wacht my RPs well enough you can see. But I will not reveal that in public.

(Melkor-mun please IM me when you get the chance so we can talk about this easier)

Hrm... Kommetrez got chased off... <snip>
[He did? crap. That guy was cool.]
Agreed. I'm hoping to bring him back some time, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

(ok after discussing this with Melkor-mun and several others I have deleted the controversial post. The storyline will now assume that the explosions {whichwas a misconduct in roleplaying anyway} never happened)