NationStates Jolt Archive

Many people have asked how to RP your economy
I made this post so everyone is doing it the same way and there are not unfair burdens

Economy Listings-

+Frightening= 40,000 MCI (after a few weeks)
Frightening = 36,000 MCI
All Consuming = 32,000 MCI
Power House = 28,000 MCI
Thriving = 25,000 MCI
Very Strong = 22,000 MCI
Strong = 17,000 MCI
Very Good = 14,500 MCI
Good = 12,000 MCI
Reasonable = 8,000 MCI
Developing = 5,000 MCI
Fair = 3,750 MCI
Struggling = 2,500 MCI
Weak = 1,500 MCI
Fragile = 800 MCI
Basket Case = 400 MCI
Imploded = 100 MCI

MCI = Monthly Citizen Income (USD)

Multiply this number by your average tax percentage. This would be how much the single person is paying you. Then take this number and multiply it by your entire population. That is the income your nation is making monthly…

Monthly seems like you would be making a lot of money, but in reality all of that money would be gone from Government spending on Military, Welfare, Education, ext.

Also if you get money from selling goods you just add it to your full income

Refresh Page (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29122)

ideas?

One problem. Taxes aren't a said thing (I hope that's the right word), the higher you raise taxes, the less your people want to work. Do you think all of your population would still pay taxes when over half of their income is going to the Government? Other than that, it looks OK.

well i think when your tax rate highers your poulation drops and you get issues like "workers on strike" ext.


its a toss up and kind of makes it more interesting

Yeah. Once you get to a certain point in level of taxes (around 40% to 50%) people start not working and you (the Government) don't get as much money.

which i think makes the game more interesting if the economy is set this way because i think they tax rate does play a big role in it

Agreed. People with 100% tax rates should have pretty much Imploded Economies; no one will work at all, unless you torture them into working. But if you do that, then your country (if this was real life) would face Civil Wars or riots.

i think we have finally agreed on something

Pfft. Well funded re-education camps will straighten them right out.

And our main financial strengths come from well planned areas.. things we know we can easily out-compete relevent rivals on, things we know people will be inspired to work for.
Things tend to be more laid back here, I don't think it hurts productivity much. A little, certainly..but not really efficiency, if you follow.

Many people in the world are not even American. Interesting fact.

Depends, would they not work if they had control of where the tax money was going or if they knew where the money was going and how it benfited them.

Sadly when we allowed people to decide where their tax money went, the economy imploded.

(sticky?)

bump

bump once more

That looks good to me, although for some reason my income tax is averaging at 100% and it won't go down no matyter how many times I try to make it! It just says at the bottom 'Citizens are enjoying a recent cut in taxes' but doesn't actually put down my taxes!

AHEM.

I recall that it went something more like this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Unless you want to say that your MCI's have a lower value per MCI than my Alokins do, because this scale is just for Alokins (though other currencies may have the same value).

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm

Keep in mind, just because you have a high tax rate doesn't mean you have all that money to go and spend on military. You probably have a high tax rate for a reason...or rather, several reasons.

Education, welfare, bureaucracy, healthcare, military, roads/transportation, bureaucracy, dams, bridges, corporate subsidies, and did I mention bureaucracy?

You have to pay people wages, you have to maintain and upkeep equipment (computers, stationary, office buildings, government vehicles, etc), there are all kinds of costs!

So just because you make 10 trillion dollars doesn't mean you have enough money to go buy a space cruiser!!! Unless of course it is made of cardboard. *grin*

*stickies post*

Well, we'll see if it flies.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/scolo_mod.gifScolopendra Der Mod

http://www.liquidgeneration.com/thru/cThru.asp?lkydg3mvubs0mbhj

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

So....if you have a "Frightening" Economy is actually good?

I disagree with a higher tax rate would decrease your economic level. What if your citizens work hard for the benefits that they get from the government? Nationalist pride is also something we should factor in, and xenophobia. And how a society is either individually minded, or socially minded. Like the Swedes are much more socially minded than the Americans.

Of course, we could make this all realistic as possible, and ban elves, dragons and all those fantasy races, and force everybody to be humans in order to keep up the 'realism' factor. And technology and magic too!

Yup. A frightening economy is the best economy to have. I've been stuck on Frightening for a few months now... Ho-hum.

Yeah, me too. heh

You think they'd still work hard even with taxes around 80% and above? The Government would have to give their people a *LOT* of stuff for them to be that willing.

You think they'd still work hard even with taxes around 80% and above? The Government would have to give their people a *LOT* of stuff for them to be that willing.

Maybe they do. Are you saying that attaining a frightening economy with a 100% tax rate is impossible? I admit, it would be difficult, but I don't think it cannot be done.

I don't think it would be. I think it would seriously damage the country. Hardly anyone would want to live in a place where you can't make money.

I don't think it would be. I think it would seriously damage the country. Hardly anyone would want to live in a place where you can't make money.

You are assuming that everybody is inheritantly greedy for themselves. With this game and its fantasy races, and the fact that greed is actually more of a cultural and social thing than a genetic one, I would think that there will be some people who are more interested on the well being of their country moreso than on themselves.

- Sovy Kurosei

According to that original post, I make 86,520,000,000,000 a month.

http://fireflies.finalheaven.org/colorimg/thaoshi3.jpg
Herm Chaknov
The Dominion of Sigma Octavus
Member of the GDODAD
Leader of the ISNA

According to that original post, I make 86,520,000,000,000 a month.

http://fireflies.finalheaven.org/colorimg/thaoshi3.jpg
Herm Chaknov
The Dominion of Sigma Octavus
Member of the GDODAD
Leader of the ISNA

No no no, that's your total budget.

By the way, I don't know if this should REALLY be a sticky or not, seeing as how many people use many different systems.

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm

yeah, a country is not necessarily cash based, at least in it's inner workings. People might be given what they need in return for labor, rather than given money, which is then taxed. In fact, this would eliminate stress ofver money problems in a society, as well as the sale of illicit goods, and give the government more control. of course, it would restrict personal freedoms, but that happens all over.

Also, if people needed something that the government didn't give them by default, they could put in a request for it. Whether or not they got it could depend on how much the government liked them, thus increasing the government's control, and giving people a reason to please it.

In this type of government, the economy would refer to the success of the country's industries. This type of country would have an hierarchy based on who was liked by the government, where it's who you know, rather than what you have. it would have a huge income, but that would get eaten up by the government providing for everyone. Overall, it's your general freedom for security tradeoff. Open borders would certainly help keep dissent down, as anyone thoroughly dissatisfied with the way the country is run can leave. also, anyone who would like to be managed, as such, could move in.

of course, a corrupt government would totally screw this up, causing those in someone's favor to have severely greater status than those not. this would cause more dissent, likely leading to a coup by someone in favor of a currency system.

if anyone is wondering why this post is so long, it's because i started my foruming in physics forums, and got too used to it.

*stickies post*

Well, we'll see if it flies.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/scolo_mod.gifScolopendra Der Mod

Doesn't fly with me. Plus, we REALLY don't need another sticky... plus, there already was a standard... plus... uh... no more plusses; I just think this would be better mentioned in an already-stickied thread.

AHEM.

I recall that it went something more like this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Unless you want to say that your MCI's have a lower value per MCI than my Alokins do, because this scale is just for Alokins (though other currencies may have the same value).

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm
well actually the MCI idacates Monthely citizen income...it is all in american dollars

According to that original post, I make 86,520,000,000,000 a month.

http://fireflies.finalheaven.org/colorimg/thaoshi3.jpg
Herm Chaknov
The Dominion of Sigma Octavus
Member of the GDODAD
Leader of the ISNA

No no no, that's your total budget.

By the way, I don't know if this should REALLY be a sticky or not, seeing as how many people use many different systems.

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm
ah my friend thats why iot is a sticky, so everyone uses the same system and everyone is the same...to make the game more fair

*stickies post*

Well, we'll see if it flies.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/scolo_mod.gifScolopendra Der Mod

Doesn't fly with me. Plus, we REALLY don't need another sticky... plus, there already was a standard... plus... uh... no more plusses; I just think this would be better mentioned in an already-stickied thread.
if mentioned in an already sticked thread it would soon be lost under many pages

yeah!

i got a sticky

also on stickys i feel advertisements are very important, so i will add soome like the trading forum and any others that people might mention, if ok with the mods.

Dang... you've made five posts in a row. You sure know how to spam, don't ya'?

sry i just got home and wanted to answer everyones questions

sry i just got home and wanted to answer everyones questions

Then do so in one post, idiot.

Geez, Marathon, you and I are agreeing on something... I fear Dante's Hell may be melting...

sry i just got home and wanted to answer everyones questions

Then do so in one post, idiot.

Geez, Marathon, you and I are agreeing on something... I fear Dante's Hell may be melting...
yea ok
i was quoting as i went along reading

ah my friend thats why iot is a sticky, so everyone uses the same system and everyone is the same...to make the game more fair

But since not everybody is the same, everybody uses different ways of governing their country and their economy. The USSR economy was managed much more differently than the USA economy.

- Sovy Kurosei

Then take this number and multiply it by your entire population. That is the income your nation is making monthly…

Problem is, your entire population is not working, you should multiply it by the sector of the population that's working. Infants don't earn an income :wink:

AHEM.

I recall that it went something more like this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Now this is more like it! I've worked mine out on the real world country I live in (their ave income) and when converted to US$, it comes out very close to this list.

Woah. Cool.
Not last place. *Ding!*

I don't think it would be. I think it would seriously damage the country. Hardly anyone would want to live in a place where you can't make money.
*Sigh* This is not entirely true. If the government gave you lot's of things for free, eg: health care, welfare income, public transport, power, water, communications, etc, you wouldn't mind paying a high tax rate.

Meh. Sounds like Communism to me... :evil:

Meh. Sounds like Communism to me... :evil:
Communism: "a social system based on common ownership of property, means of production, etc. a political doctrine or movement seeking a form of this."
Socialism: "a political and economic theory that resources, industries and transport should be owned and managed by the state."

Wait, this is in US dollars? if that's so, then my 5 million person country makes $17,000,000,000.00 monthly. that is a lot of moolah, more than a 5 million person country could possibly spend. hell that would fill in the US deficit. anyway, what i'm saying is that this is nowhere close to US$.
(ps, using the system proposed by TCL, i make 3 times that.)
of course, i only need to know so i can figure out how my currency unit (the gold piece) translates into it.

Eh? What is so wrong with communism now?

- Sovy Kurosei

the only problem with communism is that it places all the power in the hands of the government, and if the government happens to be corrupt, the country is screwed.

*Coughs*

The plains natives, before the Europeans came, practiced Communism. Now, what exactly is wrong with it?

Let me say that Communism is different from Socialism. Although, the conception is that they are both the same, which, to the contrary, are almost complete polar opposites of one another.

so anyway, does anyone have anything to say about the strangely high amounts of money proposed, or is it just an insanely low value currency? (like the yen)

AHEM.

I recall that it went something more like this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Now this is more like it! I've worked mine out on the real world country I live in (their ave income) and when converted to US$, it comes out very close to this list.

I myself worked this one on different real world countries with different states of economy, and here are the results (average income US$/year)

Imploded : 100
Basket Case : 400
Fragile : 800
Weak : 1,500
Struggling : 2,500
Developing : 5,000
Reasonable : 8,000
Good : 12,000
Strong : 17,000
Very Strong : 22,000
Thriving : 25,000
Powerhouse : 28,000
All Consuming : 32,000
Frightening : 36,000
Frightening+ : 40,000 (when you have been "frightening" for a good while - I would say at least 3 RL weeks)

Then take this number and multiply it by your entire population. That is the income your nation is making monthly…
Problem is, your entire population is not working, you should multiply it by the sector of the population that's working. Infants don't earn an income...
This is quite right.
The average values for developed countries are about 55-60% of the population actually works, 20-25% are pensioners (don't work but earn money) and the rest (20-25%) don't work at all (either too young or students or whatever).
For third-world countries, it is very different: about 70-75% of the population works (but they start working much younger, say about 10-12yo), the rest (25-30%) don't work, either because they are too old (but no pensions in these countries so no income) or too young.

In addition, here are the figures for a few developed countries (*yearly* budget in US$):
France : about US$ 280bn (population of 60m)
UK : about US$ 390bn (population of 80m)
US: about US$ 1700bn (population of 275m)

No "trillion dollars" as you see...
Hope this will make all this a bit more realistic...

I myself worked this one on different real world countries with different states of economy, and here are the results (average income US$/year)

Imploded : 100
Basket Case : 400
Fragile : 800
Weak : 1,500
Struggling : 2,500
Developing : 5,000
Reasonable : 8,000
Good : 12,000
Strong : 17,000
Very Strong : 22,000
Thriving : 25,000
Powerhouse : 28,000
All Consuming : 32,000
Frightening : 36,000
Frightening+ : 40,000 (when you have been "frightening" for a good while - I would say at least 3 RL weeks)
Good work! I think I'll re-do my nation's annual budget based on your calculations....
That gives me a budget of US$1.14 trillion. (Tax is 42%)

Thanks.
I also made a kind of "GDP/budget calculator" with these results.
It was for fun, but it might help:

:arrow: Try it here (http://www.geocities.com/rt_box/dl.html)
(sorry for those who don't have Excel)

i made this whole really cool spreadsheet with all my country's industry and spending and so on, and was about to save it... and then... my computer froze.
that really pissed me off.

Agreed. People with 100% tax rates should have pretty much Imploded Economies; no one will work at all, unless you torture them into working. But if you do that, then your country (if this was real life) would face Civil Wars or riots.

[OOC: Err, no. A 100% tax rate here is indicative of a pure-socialist regime.]

You're confusing yourselves by working with incomes instead of per capita gdp. Per capita gdp doesn't apply differently to infants and adults and such, as an income arguably would. Gdp per capita is exactly that.

And stop listening to the US government, as several people keep saying; socialism and communism are not the ruddy same things.

(nor are either of them a threat unless you happen to be in the richest 2% of your capitalist nation's population, in which case you stand to loose some money you weren't going to spend anyway, and..that's about it)

lol, well I can't believe this stupid of a post got a sticky. You failed to consider that a nations income tax rate is not the only tax rate in the game. I've got a 1% income tax rate but my sales tax is 150% and my air tax is 70% which totals a tax of 99.9%. Therefore my people have no choice but to work if they wish to purchase air and will of course work their ***es off to make money. Now edit your poorly thought out economic post so that it is just assumed that all nations will find a way to get 100% tax rates before it is too late.

[OOC: So EOTED has a monthly income of $100000000000000000, or Rlh204,000,000,000,000,000 ?]

All I know is that I use my chart (already shown) and multiply it by my population. 'Nuff said.

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm

To say that your government's budget relies completely upon income taxes is a silly idea. In the 2002 budget, the United States brought in a total of about $1.85 trillion. Of that amount, $858 billion was from individual income tax, or less than 50%.

Many nations in NationStates run on different economic schemes. Some nations may indeed choose to run simply on income tax, while others may choose to enact a national sales tax. While it is nice to try and factor income tax into the scenario, it'd probably be more fair in the end to keep it simple.

In the real world, however, you can't simply assign a formula to figure these kinds of things out. Even when comparing similar, advanced economies, you see wildly divergant results when it comes to budget intake. The best indicator of economic strength is to look at a country's GDP per capita. A nation like the United States might be rated as having an All Consuming in NationStates (I don't think anyone qualifies as Frightening these days).

The numbers posted earlier by Endless Islands would be a fair representation, if you instead replace average income with per capita GDP (these are not the same figures). In that scenario, the US would be on the cusp of Frightening, the world average would be about Reasonable, while a third-world nation like Ethiopa would rank Basket Case.

Assuming that's the case, you would take your country's economic rating, compare it to EI's table, and get your per capita GDP. In Drakestan's case, we would get 40,000 (we've been Frightening for months). Now, since we are dealing with GDP and not average income, you do multiply your per capita by your population to get your actual GDP. So in my example, I come up with $35 trillion GDP. This does NOT mean I have $35 trillion to throw around every year.

Here's the sticky part. How does GDP relate to annual budget intakes? This of course will vary greatly from one country to another. In the US, this figure is roughly 18% of the GDP. IN Japan, it's 12%, but in the UK and Germany it is a high 37%. In Sweden, they have budget revenues equal to 52% of their GDP. Basically, countries that practice Western-style free-market capitalism will see between 10-20% of their GDP reflected in budget income, European-style capitalism with more government oversight will see this figure around 30-40%, while more socialist leaning countries will be 50% and higher.

Although it's not a set-in-stone rule, take a peek at your Political Freedoms rating. The higher this is, the less government oversight exists in your nation, and the government budget revenue will be smaller in proportion to your GDP.

Given Drakestan has high political freedoms, the percentage of my GDP that is reflected in my budget intake should be conversely low, I'd say similar to Japan's 12%. This would mean I finally take in $4.2 trillion a year, or roughly $350 billion a month for goverment expenses. Of course, this is just my theory on how it works ..

ah my friend thats why iot is a sticky, so everyone uses the same system and everyone is the same...to make the game more fair

But since not everybody is the same, everybody uses different ways of governing their country and their economy. The USSR economy was managed much more differently than the USA economy.

- Sovy Kurosei

ytea but all the money was equal to something...in this one person could say frightening is 400,000 and another could say its 50,000 so this list is so everyone finds it the same way

Imploded : 100
Basket Case : 400
Fragile : 800
Weak : 1,500
Struggling : 2,500
Developing : 5,000
Reasonable : 8,000
Good : 12,000
Strong : 17,000
Very Strong : 22,000
Thriving : 25,000
Powerhouse : 28,000
All Consuming : 32,000
Frightening : 36,000
Frightening+ : 40,000 (when you have been "frightening" for a good while - I would say at least 3 RL weeks)


ok my first sketch was a rough estimate...if this is real then it will stand, hold on and i will fix it


also you missed "fair"

Imploded : 100
Basket Case : 400
Fragile : 800
Weak : 1,500
Struggling : 2,500
Developing : 5,000
Reasonable : 8,000
Good : 12,000
Strong : 17,000
Very Strong : 22,000
Thriving : 25,000
Powerhouse : 28,000
All Consuming : 32,000
Frightening : 36,000
Frightening+ : 40,000 (when you have been "frightening" for a good while - I would say at least 3 RL weeks)


ok my first sketch was a rough estimate...if this is real then it will stand, hold on and i will fix it


also you missed "fair"

Well, I'm still going to go by this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Multiplied by my population.

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm

I thought that the whole point of this was to figure out a set of numbers everyone could use as a standard. if we keep disagreeing on this number, we're just going to get it more screwed up.

we arnt disagreeing, my original post was unofficial numbers...i jut corrected it, but now it stands

ok, then ill use that in my new spreadsheet.

so what's the stand on the income tax thing? is income tax a total of all taxes levied, or just like it says: income tax?

Because, even discounting 30% of my population as nonworkers, i still end up with a huge amount of money ($10,899,901,747.00) per month with a 17% income tax. wait, is income tax taken annually or monthly?
if it's monthly, then the $2,890.00 each citizen has to pay would make slightly more sense.

so what's the stand on the income tax thing? is income tax a total of all taxes levied, or just like it says: income tax?

Because, even discounting 30% of my population as nonworkers, i still end up with a huge amount of money ($10,899,901,747.00) per month with a 17% income tax. wait, is income tax taken annually or monthly?
if it's monthly, then the $2,890.00 each citizen has to pay would make slightly more sense.
no, as you see in your nations description, basically it says the tax percentage, that is what you use

ok, but the amount i get annually still seems insane. oh well, i'll just spend most of it.

can someone figure mine? lol

can someone figure mine? lol
6,637,680
for this month

wait that cant be right
h/o
***EDIT***
yep its right

I thought that the whole point of this was to figure out a set of numbers everyone could use as a standard. if we keep disagreeing on this number, we're just going to get it more screwed up.

Well if we're going to set it standard then it cannot include tax at all because people with nations who have 0% tax or even less than 10% tax will not play along with it and therefore you will not get a standard. That is why the idea posted here will not work.

Education, welfare, bureaucracy, healthcare, military, roads/transportation, bureaucracy, dams, bridges, corporate subsidies, and did I mention bureaucracy?You mean military! Seeing I don't have public schools, education is practically a nothing, there's NO welfare whatsoever, no government healthcare (unless it's the government's fault you need it), no roads (well, at least not many - we have *personal HOVERCRAFT! :twisted:), no dams, no bridges (the hovercraft can float right over the water; well, I suppose I need a few for my tanks...no, the tanks can go through tunnels, but that'd cost more), no corporate subsidies (I think), and not too much "red tape". That leaves the military.
Well if we're going to set it standard then it cannot include tax at all because people with nations who have 0% tax or even less than 10% tax will not play along with it and therefore you will not get a standard. That is why the idea posted here will not work.Yep. Military spending is on the increase, here in Nianacio, but the tax rate is 0%! :DIf the government gave you lot's of things for free, eg: health care, welfare income, public transport, power, water, communications, etc, you wouldn't mind paying a high tax rate.It's NOT for free! It all comes from the high tax rate!hell that would fill in the US deficit.No, I don't think it would.

*There is/was a company that said their hovercraft systems would overall cost less than a wheel/road based system.

okay, so my countries mothly income tax net is 3,546,000,000,000 US%, or by the exchange rate ive been using, 7,092,000,000,000 Deriens......

OOC:

*There is/was a company that said their hovercraft systems would overall cost less than a wheel/road based system.

Companies can say what they want. It is all BS in my opinion until they have laid down the tracks and shown me the bill in the end.

Yep. Military spending is on the increase, here in Nianacio, but the tax rate is 0%!

You must have a rather big military with that much of your budget dedicated to the military!

- Sovy Kurosei

Well if we're going to set it standard then it cannot include tax at all because people with nations who have 0% tax or even less than 10% tax will not play along with it and therefore you will not get a standard. That is why the idea posted here will not work.
This is only an income forumla!

if your contry has a 0% tax rate do you think there income will be very high?

Companies can say what they want. It is all BS in my opinion until they have laid down the tracks and shown me the bill in the end.I found out about it because a site I trust has a page on it, describing how it could be used, etc.
You must have a rather big military with that much of your budget dedicated to the military!If not the biggest, my military is one of the biggest in all of NationStates.

GDP is an expression of the value of goods and services produced in a nation in the year, no? And these per capita figures we're seeing..$20,000, $10,000 and so on are evidently purchasing power parity references..

The UK with (rounded off) population 60million...Per capita gdp $25,000, total gdp $1.52trillion has a defence budget of just under $32 billion.. at 2.32% (in 2002)

and 25,000 x 60,000,000 = 1.5 trillion

2% of 1.5 trillion = 30 billion.

..and the UK does not have 100% income tax, or total tax rates. So..in this case budgets are a total percentage of gdp (in imploding economies presumably expenditure outweighs the gdp)

So..yes, unless you want to run a fully functioning economy (and I'd like to see one person do that at a vastly accelerated NS pace), I rather think this is enough detail to be going into.

Beth Gellet has 160ish million people
A strong economy (I've heard from $15,000 to $25,000 for per capita gdp, I lean to $15,000ish in my calculations.. feel free to contest that)
so.. with $15,000 that's $2.4 trillion total gdp, which will all be allotted to the budget (which includes a substantial reserve)

In my case income tax is 100%, but even if it were not, I would still adhere to this system.

I know that this sort of calculation is flawed, PPP vs. actual real dollar values of my shillings and goods/services won't allow it to be perfectly worked...I'm not going to try going into exactly how these thigns work, because from what I've observed they're accepted professional systems for measuring wealth and expenditure, certain things arguably can't be accounted for by the government (though in my extreme socialist state, I'm not sure as to the extent of that), but for an online RP game, run by one person for pleasure, and in a world where time moves many many times faster than reality, I can't see that any more realistic than this can be managed.

Oh, it'd all be fucked if I had massive debts and loans, but...I don't, we recovered quickly from recession a long time ago, and have held steady at "strong" for some time.

Imploded : 100
Basket Case : 400
Fragile : 800
Weak : 1,500
Struggling : 2,500
Developing : 5,000
Reasonable : 8,000
Good : 12,000
Strong : 17,000
Very Strong : 22,000
Thriving : 25,000
Powerhouse : 28,000
All Consuming : 32,000
Frightening : 36,000
Frightening+ : 40,000 (when you have been "frightening" for a good while - I would say at least 3 RL weeks)


ok my first sketch was a rough estimate...if this is real then it will stand, hold on and i will fix it


also you missed "fair"

Well, I'm still going to go by this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Multiplied by my population.

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm
OOC: Lordy, lordy, this post has some interesting bits 'n pieces, a good read in parts. Now the figures above are incomes per year right? As this is what I've used them as. Why not average the 2 of these out, mmm?

According to Truth Covered Lies' chart, my nation gets $8,040,000,000,000, as it has an Imploded Economy, 100% tax and a population of 804 Million.

According to The Damned People's chart, my nation gets $402,000,000,000 as it has the reasons above, except the tax part (which is not counted).

Converted to the Restoration's currency (the Restorative Crystal), it amounts to... 'Unknown'.

[quote="Xen"]The plains natives, before the Europeans came, practiced Communism. Now, what exactly is wrong with it?[\quote]

Other than the fact that the plains indians did *not* practice communism, nothing at all. They did *not* have joint ownership of goods. They just didn't have the notion of land ownership except in a collective sense and cooperated a lot in major tasks as is pretty much de rigeur in a stone age society. Everyone had their individually owned clothes, horses, food, ceremonial and decorative items, etc.

I know that in some circles this is a popular misconception of Native Americans, but it's a revisionist view of history, and patently false.

James Dewey
Minister of Education
Federation of Dangerous Thoughts

[quote=Xen]The plains natives, before the Europeans came, practiced Communism. Now, what exactly is wrong with it?[\quote]

Other than the fact that the plains indians did *not* practice communism, nothing at all. They did *not* have joint ownership of goods. They just didn't have the notion of land ownership except in a collective sense and cooperated a lot in major tasks as is pretty much de rigeur in a stone age society. Everyone had their individually owned clothes, horses, food, ceremonial and decorative items, etc.

I know that in some circles this is a popular misconception of Native Americans, but it's a revisionist view of history, and patently false.

James Dewey

THere are socialist elements in plains native and north west coast native cultures, especially in terms of the potlatch- the measure of wealth wasn't how much stuff you had, instead respect was gained through accumulating wealth, then distributing it at potlatches.

excuse me, but personel income tax doesnt make half as much as business tax does... duh?

america only collects just over a trillion in taxes, but collects over 2 trillion in taxes from business and corperations.

and you also forget about, fees, legal income, donations, economic aid, blah blah

go figure

o yea, and if a country only made money on personal income taxes, then how would corperate bordellos make money as they have a 0% tax rate...

The plains natives, before the Europeans came, practiced Communism. Now, what exactly is wrong with it? Other than the fact that the plains indians did *not* practice communism, nothing at all.

...

Everyone had their individually owned clothes, horses, food, ceremonial and decorative items, etc.

Plains natives didn't have horses until the Europeans brought them over. Just a minor point.

My calculator of GDP per capita (as well as Budget) uses the following values:

Imploded -> $100
Basket Case -> $500
Fragile -> $1000
Weak -> $2000
Struggling -> $3000
Developing -> $4000
Reasonable -> $5000
Good -> $7500
Strong -> $10000
Very Strong -> $15000
Thriving -> $20000
Powerhouse -> $25000
All Consuming -> $30000
Frightening -> $35000

(particularly as there are no nations with a per capita greater than about $32,000 in the real world)

The one caveat of this set up is that communistic nations (with economies that are typically imploded, due to a lack of economic freedom) are misrepresented in terms of GDP.

I also have a formula for calculating rough budget estimates (based off of stats found within the World Almanac):

1x10^-5 * x^2 + 0.1036x = y

Where x is the GDP per Capita, and y is the unadjusted budget per capita figure.

I furthermore decided that as there is a low R^2 value for the equation (that means it doesn't match the actual points all that well), civil rights has an effect through the use of a multiplier on the budget per capita (to represent the amount of welfare). The multipliers were as follows:

Frightening: 1.5
Excessive: 1.44
World Benchmark: 1.38
Superb: 1.32
Excellent: 1.25
Very Good: 1.18
Good: 1.11
Reasonable: 1.03
Average: 0.95
Below Average: 0.87
Some: 0.78
Few: 0.69
Unheard Of: 0.60
Outlawed: 0.50

Note that tax rate does not enter the equation (primarily as many countries utilize deficit spending and borrowing as a portion of their budget, in which case, budget expenditures are not closely pegged at the tax rate)

My GDP calculator is available online at http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php with additional information at the following thread:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

i keep trying to raise my taxes but i never get a chance :twisted: grrr

Someone give me a recomendation so I can propose an issue to the UN. Thank you :D

Yes, I noticed that my economy was starting to slide, but where is the ability to fix it? I mean, RP and all, can I just claim that I increased the tax rate on The Trout Farming Industry by 12%, or do I have to wait until it becomes an Issue?

Yes, I noticed that my economy was starting to slide, but where is the ability to fix it? I mean, RP and all, can I just claim that I increased the tax rate on The Trout Farming Industry by 12%, or do I have to wait until it becomes an Issue?
it has to actually be an issue

in the game if your tax raises then your economy lowers

raising your taxes by RP i think would be godmodding

OFFICIAL NS MOD ACTION

As we now have a unified link thread stickied, down this one goes.

*does a power climb in an F-15C and lets off an ASAT*

http://www.losangeles.af.mil/SMC/HO/F15asat2.jpg

BOOM! Thread knocked out of Sticky Orbit.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/scolo_mod.gifScolopendra Der Mod

ouch that sux

y is it that both stickies are by nakaland (sp?)?

What if you are a libertarian gov't without any taxes? You would still have money....wire me the answer i'll probably forget to check here

Mac Anu, I used your calculator and it told me that I had no budget. :(

To say that your government's budget relies completely upon income taxes is a silly idea. In the 2002 budget, the United States brought in a total of about $1.85 trillion. Of that amount, $858 billion was from individual income tax, or less than 50%.

Many nations in NationStates run on different economic schemes. Some nations may indeed choose to run simply on income tax, while others may choose to enact a national sales tax. While it is nice to try and factor income tax into the scenario, it'd probably be more fair in the end to keep it simple.

In the real world, however, you can't simply assign a formula to figure these kinds of things out. Even when comparing similar, advanced economies, you see wildly divergant results when it comes to budget intake. The best indicator of economic strength is to look at a country's GDP per capita. A nation like the United States might be rated as having an All Consuming in NationStates (I don't think anyone qualifies as Frightening these days).

The numbers posted earlier by Endless Islands would be a fair representation, if you instead replace average income with per capita GDP (these are not the same figures). In that scenario, the US would be on the cusp of Frightening, the world average would be about Reasonable, while a third-world nation like Ethiopa would rank Basket Case.

Assuming that's the case, you would take your country's economic rating, compare it to EI's table, and get your per capita GDP. In Drakestan's case, we would get 40,000 (we've been Frightening for months). Now, since we are dealing with GDP and not average income, you do multiply your per capita by your population to get your actual GDP. So in my example, I come up with $35 trillion GDP. This does NOT mean I have $35 trillion to throw around every year.

Here's the sticky part. How does GDP relate to annual budget intakes? This of course will vary greatly from one country to another. In the US, this figure is roughly 18% of the GDP. IN Japan, it's 12%, but in the UK and Germany it is a high 37%. In Sweden, they have budget revenues equal to 52% of their GDP. Basically, countries that practice Western-style free-market capitalism will see between 10-20% of their GDP reflected in budget income, European-style capitalism with more government oversight will see this figure around 30-40%, while more socialist leaning countries will be 50% and higher.

Although it's not a set-in-stone rule, take a peek at your Political Freedoms rating. The higher this is, the less government oversight exists in your nation, and the government budget revenue will be smaller in proportion to your GDP.

Given Drakestan has high political freedoms, the percentage of my GDP that is reflected in my budget intake should be conversely low, I'd say similar to Japan's 12%. This would mean I finally take in $4.2 trillion a year, or roughly $350 billion a month for goverment expenses. Of course, this is just my theory on how it works ..

mac anu ur calculator didnt do anything about my economy tax, export surplus, donations, blah blah blah, in my country taxes come primarily out of the industry, because the industry is the biggest thing in my country.

Agreed. People with 100% tax rates should have pretty much Imploded Economies; no one will work at all, unless you torture them into working. But if you do that, then your country (if this was real life) would face Civil Wars or riots.

100% tax rate means absolute communism (or absolute wartime communism, which is what most of these governments are RPing), in which the workers normally don't work VERY hard but don't slack off. The main thing you'd get in a society with 100% tax would be a lack of inovation. In communist Russia (at least according to what I've read and heard from ex-citizens of the USSR) they had a decently hard-working labour force, but nothing ever changed. They would be farming the exact way their grandfather was. If there's no capacity to get ahead, people aren't innovative. If someone can justify why that's not true in their nation, then that's just fine, but for the most part I think you should take that account in all the commies' nations. (I couldn't resist using the derogatry form any longer, please don't invade me as a response.)

Didn't read the otehr posts, sorry if I'm repeating someone.

--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--


mac anu ur calculator didnt do anything about my economy tax, export surplus, donations, blah blah blah, in my country taxes come primarily out of the industry, because the industry is the biggest thing in my country.

Industry, except in The Matrix, is run by people. You would generally get money from the industry via the people. With corporations it might be different, and I'm no economist so I don't have any idea about that one, but it seems like you'd just skim a little off the top of the salaries. Correct me because I'm wrong. (I could have used "if", but I'm almost positive that I"m wrong).

Rating GDP/capita ($)
Imploded 100
Basket Case 400
Fragile 1,000
Weak 2,500
Struggling 6,000
Developing 8,000
Reasonable 10,000
Good 12,000
Strong 17,000
Very Strong 24,000
Thriving 28,000
Powerhouse 30,000
All Consuming 32,000
Frightening 34,000
Frightening+ 38,000

That's how I see it.

I seem to have an obnoxiously high figure for my military budget per month...I'm assuming this is NS month (1 RT day) and not 1 RT month but...tell me if i'm doin somethin wrong.

Smallishville-Fightening + (Frightening since May 18th or so)

$40,000 x .57 (57% income tax) = $22,800

$22,800 x 169,000,000 (population) = $3,853,200,000,000

$3,853,200,000,000 x .15 ( 15% of budget goes to military) = $577,980,000,000

Approx. 577 billion dollars per RT day??? I know there is maintenance, and pay roll and such, but I should still have 50-100 billion left for purchasing...Doesn't that seem somewhat over-board?

Even using normal Frightening, It's still 520 billion dollars.

Yes. I don't think anyone who engages in anything like regular RP can consider a day equal to a whole year as a rule.. I mean RPing a single battle might take all day, when in the RP itself only a day has passed.
Time isn't that well structured here. While my nation may grow at a rate suggesting years have passed, I don't behave as if they have in RPing what's going on in the world (also I'm considering taking my population to be 10% of that listed, so that it actually grows much more reasonably)

Good = 12,000 MCI

MCI = Monthly Citizen Income

Multiply this number by your average tax percentage. This would be how much the single person is paying you. Then take this number and multiply it by your entire population. That is the income your nation is making monthly…



Okay, so my nation has a good economy, 68 million people, and a 47% tax rate. So, by your math, we collect $383,520,000,000 monthly or about $46 trillion in taxes, annually.

Now, I don't mind collecting this much, but is that realistic?

I have a strong economy and a 7% Income Tax.

Does this mean I have USD$8.33 Billion?

AHEM.

I recall that it went something more like this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Unless you want to say that your MCI's have a lower value per MCI than my Alokins do, because this scale is just for Alokins (though other currencies may have the same value).

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm
Actually, if they used the other numbers, they would be saying that their currency is worth more then yours.....not less

The next logical step, and forgive me if this has been addressed somewhere else, would be to chart the various forms of government and match that to the defence percentage of MacAnu's calculator.

For example:

Iron Fisted Consumerists = 5% of GDP spent on defense
Corporate police state = XX %

(I seem to fluctuate between that category rating and Corporate Police state) :)

These are my stats:

Population: 573,000,000
Civil Rights: Few
Economy: Frightening
GDP per Capita: $35,000
GDP: $20,055,000,000,000
National Budget: $1,621,498,320,000

Percentage of GDP Spent on Defense: 5%
Percentage of Budget Spent on Defense: 61.84%
Military Budget: $1,002,750,000,000

The military percentage of the national budget is a helluva lot (and is in all honesty hard to justify - I might have to round it down) but keep in mind I spend squat on education, welfare, etc...

I like his calculator since hey, plug in the numbers and whammo! Personally, I think the budget and GDP should be lower because it's not like I instantly had 573 million people or a frightening economy. Some kind of average needs to be built in (which I think is more of a NS game thingy rather than the calculator).

Also, I think the big budgets don't always translate into big troop numbers nor having 5 zillion destroyers. We could factor in maintenance costs (wages, upkeep of buildings, etc...) for the military. As well, some forms of govenment will have their military "tied down" in keeping the population controlled - which will probably reduce any global reach. IF I recall correctly, the US constitution forbids the military from acting as police while in other countries they are.

Here is a quick list of 10 real-life nations. I'm sure someone else could include a broader spectrum of types of government relating to GDP. I got all this information from:

http://www.atlapedia.com/index.html

At the end I compare my own nation to the real world.

Canada
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION 30,532,900
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $574,936,000,000 (1993).
MILITARY: 70,500 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 2.0%

United Kingdom
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION: 58,991,500
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $1,042,700,000,000 (1993).
MILITARY: 236,900 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 3.6% (1993)

United States
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION: 271,290,000
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $6,738,400,000,000 (1994).
MILITARY: 1,547,300 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 4.7% (1993)

Italy
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION 57,298,100
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $1,134,800,000,000 (1993).
MILITARY: 322,300 (1994)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 2.1% (1991)

France
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION 59,047,000
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $1,317,950,000,000 (1992)
MILITARY: 409,000 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 3.4% (1993)

Germany
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION 81,025,000
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $1,908,570,000,000 (1993).
MILITARY: 339,900 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 1.6% (1993)


Japan
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION 126,994,100
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $4,693,200,000,000 (1994).
MILITARY: 239,500 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 1.0% (1993)

Russia
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION: 148,518,500
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $349,062,000,000 (1993).
MILITARY: 1,520,000 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 21.5% (1993)

North Korea
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION 25,242,000
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $22,000,000,000 (1992).
MILITARY: 1,128,000 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 26.6% (1994)

The Sudan
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION: 29,810,600
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $8,176,000,000 (1992).
MILITARY: 118,500 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 17.1% (1992)


Vrak
ESTIMATED POPULATION: 573,000,000 (larger than the above real countries)
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $20,055,000,000,000 (2.98 - almost 3 times larger than the US GDP)
MILITARY: --- (have to base it off expenditures and economy – maybe as high as 2% of total population?)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 5% (doesn’t seem too far-fetched now)

Vrak Military budget:1,002,750,000,000 = about 1 trillion
USA military budget: 316,704,800,000 = about 317 billion

United States
ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION: 271,290,000
ECONOMY: Gross National Product; USD $6,738,400,000,000 (1994).
MILITARY: 1,547,300 (1995)
MILITARY EXPENDITURES OF GDP: 4.7% (1993)


So with Circumstance's $95 Trillion GDP, we make about 14 times as much as the United States.

(For British readers: In the U.S. it goes thousands, millions, billions, trillions--we don't have a "thousand million" but skip straight to billion.)

I would say that you probably want to change the data some to come into line with Vrak's Figures.

I would call the U.S. economy Good (or maybe even strong) but every man, woman, and child in America does NOT make $12,000 per MONTH!

OOC:

Hmmm? Using MacAnu's calculator Circumstance I get the following:

Circumstance Gross Domestic Product
Population: 82,000,000
Civil Rights: Very Good
Economy: Reasonable
GDP per Capita: $5,000
GDP: $410,000,000,000
National Budget: $50,315,200,000

I honestly don't know where you got 95 trillion (95 000 000 000 000) from. I hope you aren't angry about me showing your stats, but in truth, anyone can do it just by plugging in the name. I aplogize in advance though.

What about 0% taxes?

What about 0% taxes?

exactly. the ones i've asked don't seem to ave an answer about it, so i don't use theses things.

AHEM.

I recall that it went something more like this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Unless you want to say that your MCI's have a lower value per MCI than my Alokins do, because this scale is just for Alokins (though other currencies may have the same value).

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm

So the US has a weak-developing economy? :shock: (yes, that's right, average US income is 20,000 - 30,000 USD per year!)

Soviet Haaregrad spends 4.9% GDP on it's armed forces.

Can someone post the link to MacAnu's calculator??

Dhoom Aisle:

Here ya go!

This is where MacAnu's calculator is:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29122&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80


My GDP calculator is available online at http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php with additional information at the following thread:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25584&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I like it because you just plug in your nation and blammo! It spits out the stats.

Some places do not really have an economy based on money like say the borg. (Gee, what a coincidence)
Instead overal productivity would likely be a better messure of what you get from your economy*population, because there is a 'cost' to mining and refining metals and then putting them together as a cube even without money as such. Drones must work, machienes are used etc. and while they are being used for this they can't be used to make popcorn, hovercars, computers, or anything else.

Overal productivity could be expressed as money, and then you can comppare how much different countires can get, even though most countries will produce things besides warmateriel (such as say popcorn, or factories, or...) and that could be accounted for when RPing.

I did read this whole thread, and the first few pages were rather frustrating, but I must say Mac Anu's calculator is excellent. Now I just need to have this judged....

Total budget - 49,201,200,000

Total of 50% given to top three "juggled" items - 24,600,600,000

1/3 to defense - 8,200,200,000

3/4 to maintenance/savings/developments/whatever else; 2,050,050,000 left for manufacturing and purchasing of arms.

Now then, I've already spent half a billion this real-life month purchasing stuff. Should I stop now, or would you say it is actually okay to spend another half-billion? Also, how often do I get this money, in Real Life terms? I know it was mentioned before, but I'm still confused about this time system.... http://www.sc3000.com/forums/images/face1.GIF

The one advantage of capitalism(after everyone whines the socialists got it easy) is capitalists don't have to take wages or factories or other such things into account.

Ok, noob here...

according to the calculater my GDP is 60 billion even & my budget is only 6.4 bill.

...does this mean my 1 day old nation actually has 54.6 billion to spend this month?

& is this in the currency rate I created in the rate exchange this morning?

Barboqu Gross Domestic Product
Population: 6,000,000
Civil Rights: Average
Economy: Strong
GDP per Capita: $10,000
GDP: $60,000,000,000
National Budget: $6,414,840,000

Your national budget is what you (the government of your nation) get to spend it on. GNP is just a measure of all economic activity of a country. It does not mean that is what the government (you) gets to spend.

Spefically, GNP means:

Gross National Product
Gross National Product (GNP): The total value of final goods and services produced by domestically owned factors of production in a year.

Final goods are goods that are ultimately consumed rather than used in the production of another good. For example, a car sold to a consumer is a final good; the components such as tires sold to the car manufacturer are not - they are intermediate goods used to make the final good. Only final goods are included when measuring national income. If intermediate goods were included too, this would lead to double counting - for example, the value of the tires would be counted once when they are sold to the car manufacturer, and again when the car is sold to the consumer.

Goods and services produced ... in a year means that only newly produced goods are counted. Transactions in existing goods, such as second-hand cars, are not included as these do not involve the production of new goods.

Goods and services produced by domestically owned factors of production means that the income is counted as part of GNP according to who owns the factors of production rather than where the production takes place. For example, consider a German owned car factory operating in the US. The profits from the factory would be counted as part of German GNP rather than US GNP because the capital used in production (the factory, machinery etc.) is German owned. The wages of the American workers would be part of US GNP, while the wages of any German workers on the site would be part of German GNP.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measures_of_national_income

The national budget also does not mean it's all in the military either. After all, your country has roads, schools, etc...

Using my example (Vrak) above, I have 5% of my GNP spent on the military - which is in line with many real-life nations. That consumes over 60% of my national budget however- which is damn high.

If you are using I RL (real-life) day = I NS (nation-state) month then that would be your GNP over 12 "real" days. I believe this is the common standard. Some also use 1 RL day = I NS year. Personally, I think the former is more fun since you have some time to buy things - such as equiping your military.

I should mention that I'm not an accountant or anything like that so take these comments in that light. I hope I didn't confuse you. :)

Thanks...now I know how much money I have to spend & I think I 've figured how to spend it....the Barboqu are just about ready :D

I'm still unsure about one thing here....given my nations bio, the budget & population, can I assume they start with some kind of military capability?

Of course. I think whatever region you're in there's an agreed upon "tech level". Why not check out this thread?

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29774

Okay, I understand all the economic levels, but I'm still having problems duplicating the National Budget figures that I get from the on-line calculator.

I plugged in the regression equation, and multipled the y-term by the civil rights modifier, and I still came up with a higher number than the calculator spit out.

Can someone give me the equation that is being used to determine national budget? BTW, the one that's posted on this thread is the one I'm trying to use to no avail. Thanks.

"Multiply this number by your average tax percentage. This would be how much the single person is paying you. Then take this number and multiply it by your entire population. That is the income your nation is making monthly…"


Well, it´s not as easy as that. In the equation you have to see reality. The higher taxes you have, the more people will try to get away without payng taxes. In sweden, we call it "svartjobb", which would be, in english,: black working or something like that.

But, maybe that equation is already seen to hen the game fiures out how your economy is doing, although I guess not.

I was thinking about this thing: since i am a libertarian nation, I don´t get any taxes to my governments treasury, I came up with this idea (which was formed by a libertarian philosopher): if the government would offer a contract-insurance, you would get legal protection (that you can sue(sew etc. don´t know the spelling) another one who breaks a contract. To get this you would have to pay a monthly fee, which is determined by how much money is involved in the deal you want to insure. This way a libertarian government without any taxes could pay for police, military and courts.

Maybe I could do it that way, although you can´t be certain about how much money you will actually get. That would be a part of the RPing.

I personally play as 1 RL week = 1 NS year. I use the http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php calculator for my defense and research budgets, and figure that whatever it spits out at me is for 1 week. =)

If I'm understanding all this correctly (and I am not sure that I am) then my government, in spite of collecting practically no taxes, is collecting 2.25 billion MCI every month. Can that be right? And if it is, how do I know how much of that is going to social programs, and how much is left over to crush my enemies? I confess to being a bit confused.

hmm...

40 000 (frightening economy)

times 100% taxes

times 1.434 billion

equals

57 360 000 000 000

I rule.

I finaly did the gdp corectly. and boy i under stand now. you need to have either a substantial pop size, or a high tax% with a small or both to have money for defense. At least my second country had an extra 2.4bn to spend, that covered a large purchase of guns I made last night as New Siberian Islands and leaves enough left over to keep the troops equiped and fed.

how the heck do i figure out my tax income with no income tax?

hehe... 131,208,000,000,000 bucks a year... whoohoo!

and about 70 % of that goes to defence.

Many people have asked how to RP your economy
I made this post so everyone is doing it the same way and there are not unfair burdens

Economy Listings-

+Frightening= 40,000 MCI (after a few weeks)
Frightening = 36,000 MCI
All Consuming = 32,000 MCI
Power House = 28,000 MCI
Thriving = 25,000 MCI
Very Strong = 22,000 MCI
Strong = 17,000 MCI
Very Good = 14,500 MCI
Good = 12,000 MCI
Reasonable = 8,000 MCI
Developing = 5,000 MCI
Fair = 3,750 MCI
Struggling = 2,500 MCI
Weak = 1,500 MCI
Fragile = 800 MCI
Basket Case = 400 MCI
Imploded = 100 MCI

MCI = Monthly Citizen Income (USD)

Multiply this number by your average tax percentage. This would be how much the single person is paying you. Then take this number and multiply it by your entire population. That is the income your nation is making monthly…

Monthly seems like you would be making a lot of money, but in reality all of that money would be gone from Government spending on Military, Welfare, Education, ext.

Also if you get money from selling goods you just add it to your full income

Refresh Page (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29122)

I thought this would be very useful to the game, but it need to account for spending, like you all have said. So I made an equation using this so that you could calculate your actual income after expenses to your major issues, i.e. Law&Order, Defense, etc.:

Step 1: Total Expenses=(Economic Status #{from income chart} x Income Tax Rate)=A.
Step 2: A-(A x (Issue 1 + Issue 2 + Issue 3))

Each Issue gets 25% of your income. Since my nation only concentrated on one issue, I took that into account and that issue got 75% of the income. I still ended up with a nice bit of money to spend. I hope this makes the concept a LOT more usable.

And on another note, I think that nations with no income tax should get no profit. After all, if the US government had no taxes, how could it get money from its citizens?

Tariffs...


Joe Beeman, President of People's Republic of Beeman
President/CEO of Beeman Global Conglomerate
Beeman Global Conglomerate- Working as busy as bees!
-UN Delegate
-Organizer of the 1st Annual Miss Universe Pageant
-Join the REAL UN: United Nations Proper
-Member of Skynet

Tariffs...


Joe Beeman, President of People's Republic of Beeman
President/CEO of Beeman Global Conglomerate
Beeman Global Conglomerate- Working as busy as bees!
-UN Delegate
-Organizer of the 1st Annual Miss Universe Pageant
-Join the REAL UN: United Nations Proper
-Member of Skynet
I thought about that, but decided that individual tariffs should just be part of the RP, otherwise this gets more complicated then it already is.

just worked this out and my economy meens that i have....

£2128280000000000 per month

thats

£25539360000000000 per year

Which meens, in the average Pablicostan lifetime, I earn

£2451778560000000000

In the average citizens lifetime they will pay the government

£11704000000000

And whoa thats a lot of money

Hmm...

After some calculations I was really surprised. I take my reasonable economy (8000 MCI), 30% tax rate and 558 million citizens. Even if I keep my military budget as low as 2% (which I remember was what the NATO candidates were supposed to have (RL)) of my country's monthly bugdet, I still get a number of $26,784,000,000 per year... With the GDP calculator it's smaller, only $18,686,025,000, but the number's still frightening...

Marek Siilis II
Elder of the Empire of M-I

edit: and now that I remember better... it was supposed to be 2% of GDP... Will have to recalculate

edit2: which gives the small military budget of $83,700,000,000

After I have read this entire thread... I'm still confused.

Could someone give me a simple run down of how to figure my national budget out. I've tried a few different ways that were explained but still cannot figure it out. It could just be that I'm doing it wrong or just apparently not smart enough.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

I also am confused by reading this thread. I have a large population (around 89 million) and a good economy. A tax rate of 28%.. etc... Is there anyway someone could give me a run down of what my stats for that would be? It would be appreciated.

AHEM.

I recall that it went something more like this:

Frightening: 50,000
All consuming: 45,000
Powerhouse: 40,000
Wealthy: 35,000
Thriving: 30,000
Very Strong: 25,000
Strong: 20,000
Good: 15,000
reasonable: 10,000
fair: 8,000
fragile: 5,000
weak: 2,500
developing: 2,000
struggling: 1,500
basket case: 1,000
imploded: 500

Unless you want to say that your MCI's have a lower value per MCI than my Alokins do, because this scale is just for Alokins (though other currencies may have the same value).

Nik,
Leader Of The Free Land Of The Damned People
http://welcomehome.0catch.com/TDP.htm

These were the figures generally agreed upon by the whole comunity, way back last year. It is the rate of GDP per person per year for a economy.

Actually for the last 8 budgets Tannelorn has sunk it all in ot military and police...which is why a country with 150 million people and Stalinist [iron fist consumerist] country has sucha huge and well equipped military [Compulsory military service and the support mechanism of Vascilia county...only 5 nations in Vascilia do any fighting the Rest handle battle field supply and support] as well as massive jobs, no homeless problem or crime at a nice 37% tax rate!!

help i'm a noob and don't understand the whole money concept.. :/

Using the one from the first post and my 13% income tax rate, I get $131b annually. Hmm.

Can anyone suggest a reasonable defence budget percentage?

In Luxembourg the GDP per person is $44,000 that's the highest in the world. Divide that by twelve and your answer should be $3666.66. So a citizen in Luxembourg earns $3666.66 a month. This will mean that in NationStates would have a fair economy which is not the case and the would also have a fair economy. So I doubt whether this economy list is correct.
Greetings Daniel, President of Sozy.

Well what are your opnions? Noone seem to care :(

Maybe it would be better as yearly income...?
OOC:
FYI:
In 1999 America spent 3.2% GDP on military.
In 2000 Saudi Arabia spent 13% GDP.
However, in 1998 North Korea spent 25% GDP. (Yet it can't feed its own people, even with massive amounts of aid coming in)

Endless Islands

Does the Tax Earnings represent the National budget for the Year?.. and if so could it be used to calculate a 20% (as a rule of thumb, according to a post) of that for military spending?

+Frightening= 40,000 MCI (after a few weeks)
Frightening = 36,000 MCI
All Consuming = 32,000 MCI
Power House = 28,000 MCI
Thriving = 25,000 MCI
Very Strong = 22,000 MCI
Strong = 17,000 MCI
Very Good = 14,500 MCI
Good = 12,000 MCI
Reasonable = 8,000 MCI
Developing = 5,000 MCI
Fair = 3,750 MCI
Struggling = 2,500 MCI
Weak = 1,500 MCI
Fragile = 800 MCI
Basket Case = 400 MCI
Imploded = 100 MCI

MCI = Monthly Citizen Income (USD)



Wait...so a *developing* country has a per-capita income of $60,000 U.S.? That's richer than *any* real-world country! :shock:

This strikes me as more realistic. (Real-wold country comparisons, in Purchasing Power Parity, courtesty of World Bank 2002.)

Frightening = 10000 (Richer than any real country)
All Consuming = 6000 (Richer than any real country)
Power House = 4250 (Like Luxembourg, the world's richest country)
Thriving = 3000 (Like the U.S.)
Very Strong = 2300 (Like Canada)
Strong = 2150 (Like Japan)
Very Good = 1900 (Like Singapore)
Good = 1650 (Like Spain)
Reasonable = 1400 (Like Portugal)
Developing = 1200 (Like the Czech Republic)
Fair = 1000 (Like Uruguay)
Struggling = 650 (Like Russia)
Weak = 500 (Like Colombia)
Fragile = 350 (Like the Philippines)
Basket Case = 150 (Like the Sudan)
Imploded = 40 (Like Sierra Leone, the world's poorest country)

Bizboz is a puppet nation of the Community of Gurthark.

Note that I left the top two income brackets richer than any world country. This is to make allowences for the science-fictiony nature of nation states, where some countries are basically run like corporations and could be expected to turn profits accordingly.

Even in such a science-fictiony universe, though, it's hard to imagine a country with a per-capita income of much more than $120,000 (my "frightening"-level suggestion). That would mean that the average person on the street would make as much as the richest 5% of the U.S. population today. Virtually everybody would be able to afford 5-bedroom houses and high-end luxury cars.

Agreed. People with 100% tax rates should have pretty much Imploded Economies; no one will work at all, unless you torture them into working. But if you do that, then your country (if this was real life) would face Civil Wars or riots.

Really? Hmm. There was once a nation that taxed around 100%... huh, I'm trying to think of the name... oh yah, THE SOVIET UNION. So really, it should be the Category that changes, not the economy. And the only reason the U.S.S.R. fell apart is the fact that they overextended themselves. So... hah. :)

Even in such a science-fictiony universe, though, it's hard to imagine a country with a per-capita income of much more than $120,000 (my "frightening"-level suggestion). That would mean that the average person on the street would make as much as the richest 5% of the U.S. population today. Virtually everybody would be able to afford 5-bedroom houses and high-end luxury cars.

...Or not. Look at Japan. They make enough to go to Vegas and not have to leave for a month. Why? Because they make a lot of money. But they don't all drive around in Beamers, or own a nice 500000 sq. foot home in Japan. Why? (Besides the cramping.) Because of this really unhearded of phenominan. It's called, ready for this? Inflation. Wow! That's out of left field eh? So they wouldn't all have the high end luxury cars. The cars made in the nation would be pricey, to compinsate for the cost of work, and eventually the shipping industry would catch on to the fact that people are buying cars from other nations at low prices, and then jack up shipping costs. And I'm sure the government would institute some pretty heavy tariffs on imports. So your "5-bedroom houses and high-end luxury cars" idea, while it may apply to people who move with all their money out of the nation, relitively is stupid when you look at it right. Come on, I'm only 15 and I saw that. So... hah. :)

Even in such a science-fictiony universe, though, it's hard to imagine a country with a per-capita income of much more than $120,000 (my "frightening"-level suggestion). That would mean that the average person on the street would make as much as the richest 5% of the U.S. population today. Virtually everybody would be able to afford 5-bedroom houses and high-end luxury cars.

...Or not. Look at Japan. They make enough to go to Vegas and not have to leave for a month. Why? Because they make a lot of money. But they don't all drive around in Beamers, or own a nice 500000 sq. foot home in Japan. Why? (Besides the cramping.) Because of this really unhearded of phenominan. It's called, ready for this? Inflation. Wow! That's out of left field eh? So they wouldn't all have the high end luxury cars. The cars made in the nation would be pricey, to compinsate for the cost of work, and eventually the shipping industry would catch on to the fact that people are buying cars from other nations at low prices, and then jack up shipping costs. And I'm sure the government would institute some pretty heavy tariffs on imports. So your "5-bedroom houses and high-end luxury cars" idea, while it may apply to people who move with all their money out of the nation, relitively is stupid when you look at it right. Come on, I'm only 15 and I saw that. So... hah. :)

These comparisons were in Purchasing Power Parity. They're based on how much, within their home country, the average person can buy, in terms of what 1$US could buy at the time I'm writing this (2003).

The average person in Sierra Leone makes nowhere *near* $40/month, by the international exchange rate (the vast majority of people can't find work at all; those who *can* are generally making $30/month or less). It's just that what their money can buy is about what $40/month could buy in the U.S. So the figure of $120K/year (and by the way, the average person in Japan makes nowhere near that amount by *any* measure) would mean that they can buy what $120K/year can buy you *on average* in the U.S. (not what it cold buy you in San Francisco or Manhattan, which admittedly is not a lavish lifestyle, but what it can buy on average, which is).

Exchange-rate comparisons are almost useless. We in Gurthark could declare that 1 Bersnap equals 10 U.S. dollars, and by the international exchange rate, we'd be suddenly multiplying the wealth of our citizens by 100. But it wouldn't really make them any richer.

How can I increase my economy fast? It just keeps on declining :?

How can I increase my economy fast? It just keeps on declining :?

Is there an easier way to view the total amount of money you have available?

It seems that there is some disagreement about the order of the lower brackets:

reasonable:
fair:
fragile:
weak:
developing:
struggling:
basket case:
imploded:

Reasonable
Developing
Fair
Struggling
Weak
Fragile
Basket Case
Imploded

Does anyone know which is correct? I believe that the latter is probably more accurate since I just went from weak to developing. In the first list, that would be quite a jump in one day, based on one issue. If that is the case, then the calculator offered by Mac Anu would need to be corrected.

+Frightening= 40,000 MCI (after a few weeks)
Frightening = 36,000 MCI
All Consuming = 32,000 MCI
Power House = 28,000 MCI
Thriving = 25,000 MCI
Very Strong = 22,000 MCI
Strong = 17,000 MCI
Very Good = 14,500 MCI
Good = 12,000 MCI
Reasonable = 8,000 MCI
Developing = 5,000 MCI
Fair = 3,750 MCI
Struggling = 2,500 MCI
Weak = 1,500 MCI
Fragile = 800 MCI
Basket Case = 400 MCI
Imploded = 100 MCI

MCI = Monthly Citizen Income (USD)



Wait...so a *developing* country has a per-capita income of $60,000 U.S.? That's richer than *any* real-world country! :shock:

This strikes me as more realistic. (Real-wold country comparisons, in Purchasing Power Parity, courtesty of World Bank 2002.)

Frightening = 10000 (Richer than any real country)
All Consuming = 6000 (Richer than any real country)
Power House = 4250 (Like Luxembourg, the world's richest country)
Thriving = 3000 (Like the U.S.)
Very Strong = 2300 (Like Canada)
Strong = 2150 (Like Japan)
Very Good = 1900 (Like Singapore)
Good = 1650 (Like Spain)
Reasonable = 1400 (Like Portugal)
Developing = 1200 (Like the Czech Republic)
Fair = 1000 (Like Uruguay)
Struggling = 650 (Like Russia)
Weak = 500 (Like Colombia)
Fragile = 350 (Like the Philippines)
Basket Case = 150 (Like the Sudan)
Imploded = 40 (Like Sierra Leone, the world's poorest country)

Bizboz is a puppet nation of the Community of Gurthark.

Thats a good one. I think a yearly way of measuring the budget would be better though. Here's my idea, based upon yearly GDP per capita.

examples obtained from http://www.photius.com/rankings/gdp_per_capita_2003_1.html

Frightening = 60000 (frightening indeed)
All Consuming = 50000
Power House = 35000 (eg. USA)
Thriving = 28000 (Japan, Denmark)
Very Strong = 25000 (Sweden, France, Italy)
Strong = 22000 (UAE)
Very Good = 19500 (Spain, South Korea)
Good = 15000 (Czech Republic)
Reasonable = 11000 (Saudi Arabia)
Developing = 8000 (Brazil, Romania, also world average)
Fair = 5000 (Algeria, Peru)
Struggling = 3000 (Indonesia)
Weak = 2000 (Pakistan, Bosnia)
Fragile = 1400 (Nepal, Sudan)
Basket Case = 900 (North Korea, Nigeria)
Imploded = 500 (Somalia, the Gaza Strip, etc...)

These are an idea. The numbers do need tweaking a bit, though the descriptions seem to befit the countries, for the most part. The US is an economic powerhouse, and Brazil would be described as developing, for example.

5,200,000,000,000,000 / month at 40,000 MCI 100% tax rate, 1.3 bil pop.

Fancy, no.

What the heck does one spend that on?

5,200,000,000,000,000 / month at 40,000 MCI 100% tax rate, 1.3 bil pop.

Fancy, no.

What the heck does one spend that on?

Almost all of that will be spent on necessary government business (salaries, benefits, operating expenses, etc), including whatever is spent on things like a military and a space program.

If your tax rate is 100%, that means that the government provides all of the food, clothing, transportation, housing, medical care, etc for 1.3 billion people- this gets expensive.

TEO

Now I have some questions........one, how do I wire money in buying things, such as resources, ect? And how do I obtain new resources?

Are the figures generated gross or net?

Furthermore, do they take into account the non-contributing members of society? ... For example, if I have a population of 20million, should I enter my population of 20million or 13million (20million - 35% retired people)

What about the military? ... They are a drain on resources rather than a contributor and perhaps I should remove them from the figures to start with and then subtract a further 3% from my final GDP

So, taking only the military and the retired into account (3% and 35% respectively), I would perform the calculation based upon a population of 12.4million and then subtract the calculated income of 7.6million troops

What about children and other non-contributors? ... What percentages do *they* make up of the population?

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-- --

FIA does not have a currency per se. We hold data.

For the purposes of generating our own wealth we charge our clients a fee, calculated to serve both their and our interests to the mutual benefit of all.

Our GDP is, therefore, held in multiple demoniations and calculations are based upon the Tuple - a nominal virtual currency representing a variable ratio between our service charge to a client and their national currency.

We charge a flat rate in Tuples which is identical to all clients. This way our service fees are transparent to all but the client concerned.

-- --

If nations were to trade through us, with FIA acting as a broker, then the issues of variable exchange rates would be resolved to a not inconsiderable degree.

We and the client will set the Currency:Tuple exchange rate.

Each nation would see the exchange managed in Tuples.

All transactions between two clients would then be brokered by FIA, thus relieving the individual nations of the need to scour the world looking for the various exchange rates available.

Since the Tuple is a virtual currency, the final outcome of the deal can be an exchange of goods or materials rather than currency, but this is masked by the Tuple ERM and so confusing extraneous detail is eliminated.

If all nations' transactions are measured in Tuples then it is possible to compare deals and select the best one available, without the chaos caused by comparing various and variable exchange rates.

Everyone is a winner.

It's an interesting concept ... but how will your 'clients' know that the exchange rate they are getting with a given nation is comparable to the deal they would get with another?

Let's say my Tuple:Idon exchange rate is 1:2
Another nation (X) has a Tuple:currency rate of 1:1.5
A third nation (Y) has a rate of 1:3

If I were to deal with Y directly, I would get a better deal than if I were dealing with X ... but I won't know this, since all I see is a diferential ratio

Say I want to spend 10 Idons on goods, then the deal with X would be 5 of my Tuples to 6.67 of theirs which is an exchange ratio of 1 Idon to 0.75 of their currency ... costing me 14.67 Idons

But if I choose to do the deal with Y then the ratio is 5:3.33, which is 1 Idon to 1.5 of theirs ... costing me only 6.67 Idons

Clearly, I would be better off dealing with Y, but I won't know this since all I will see is a flat rate measured in Tuples

This misconception provides an opportunity to highlight just some of the benefits to be gained from the services offered by First Independant of Ayakhustyx.

Only the fee we charge our clients is based upon a uniform value in Tuples. This preserves our clients' financial confidentiality.

We perform all the exchange calculations for our clients transparently. In the example above FIA would post the values in Tuples, having performed the exchange calculations prior to listing.

For the values suggested, the listing table would be as follows:

Sagatia 5.000 Tuples
Nation X 7.335 Tuples
Nation Y 3.335 Tuples

It is clear that nation Y is offering the cheapest supply.

Further, at the rate listed, Nation X might decide that it cannot compete and no longer list that service or item, leaving Sagatia in a stronger position competatively.

Alternatively, Nation X might choose to subcontract its service/item provision to either Sagatia or Nation Y, for reasons of commercial benefit - If Nation Y can supply the service/item at such a competative rate, it is to the benefit of Nation X to import from Nation Y, as it can obtain twice as many units for less than the cost of one of its own and make a saving of 0.3325 Tuples per unit transaction - In real terms to Nation X, this is a saving of 0.665 Tuples (0.9975 units of their own currency) per unit when compared to the cost of a single unit of their own.

We feel that this method of listing service/item charges makes a great deal of sense and is of value to our clients since it makes trade options transparent and draws attention to alternative avenues of wealth-creation that might otherwise be hidden by the vaguaries of nation-to-nation exchange rate based transactions.

We look forward to doing business with you.

Yeah. Once you get to a certain point in level of taxes (around 40% to 50%) people start not working and you (the Government) don't get as much money.

Bullshit. 100% taxes are one thing, but 50% tax level wont make ppl stop working. An upper middle-class employee is taxed somewhere around 50%, while the highest income group is taxed over 60% in Finland.

Any idea on how big percentage of the monthly income should be neglected as government spending and how much should be considered as profit?

where do u find the MCI of your country?

Civil and Political rights are just obstacles in the way of your econmy.

The easiest solution is to simply get rid of them. Its worked fine for my nation.

Civil: Unheard of
Econmy: All-Consuming
Political: Outlawed
Population: 224 million.

Yeah. Once you get to a certain point in level of taxes (around 40% to 50%) people start not working and you (the Government) don't get as much money.

I live in Denmark, and would absolutely love to pay 40 t0 50% income tax, would save me thousands every year. Of course, in most societies taxes this high would have the effects you describe, but if you can make your citizens feel like they are getting their money's worth it quite possible.
Not something you do in <50 years tho.

For a n00b trying to get it right.....

has there been any concensus on this?

i've tried varius methods and got varius answers (from 1 trillion which is jsut rediculious from the monthy one to 7 billion wich for a country of 18million wouldn't even pay for the roads).

I fianly settled on the calculator found here http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php. It's nice and simple and can't be questioned (it links right in with the surver).

My final results are as follows:

Population: 18,000,000
Civil Rights: Excellent
Economy: Good
GDP per Capita: $10,000
GDP: $180,000,000,000
National Budget: $45,810,000,000

$45 billion, i can live with that... plus some other small income sorces... and no use for a military (anyone have a link to the list of countries, some of arn't looking @ US scale millitaries).

the other one i used was the one that was an excel file (sorry i can't remember exactly who made it)... it spat out 37.5 billion... both are nice ball park figures, but the website one is automatic and I don't have to think about it.

It might be an idea to talk it over with the writer and incoperate it into the site (like on the profile page or something). Just a though.

how much will rings be worth?(it's my currency for the RPG)

Is the GDP calculator on Pipian (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php) generally accepted by most RP'ers? Does anyone know how I can contact the creator? He posted an old version of the source code on that site, and GDP per capita values vary from the current one. (Mac-anu's listed as an ex-nation on page 5 of this thread)

Just did some testing, it appears the current values on Mac-anu's GDP Calculator (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php) are as follows:

"Imploded" => 100
"Basket Case" => 500
"Fragile" => 2000
"Weak" => 3000
"Struggling" => 1000
"Developing" => 4000
"Fair" => 5000
"Reasonable" => 7500
"Good" => 10000
"Strong" => 12500
"Very Strong" => 15000
"Thriving" => 20000
"Powerhouse" => 25000
"All-Consuming" => 30000
"Frightening" => 35000

i'm a newbie here... h0w d0 y0u raise y0ur taxrates???